Here is yet another Lakesidetrader adoption into my family. When the stork brought this baby,,it was,, and still is untouched and uncleaned,, but loved very much!! This dagger has a very heavy patina that matches everywhere. Also to note it feels slightly heavier than normal. I have to say in the crossguards! A great combination of the logo and Gruppe mark Om, stole my heart after viewing the rest of the dagger. I can not say anymore than what I have already said the last time I bought an SA from Paul Hogle,, but it has been great!! Listed below are some pics of my new adoption. They are not the greatest pics because I wont get off my butt to get a real camera. Best Larry C

#2

#3

#4

*LOL*

Hi Larry

Nevermind that camera! Your dagger? Its gorgeous! I love the maker's mark; that great cook there, awesome! Also a fat 6 on McSarr's list, nice! Its ALWAYS a pleasure seeing SUCH beautiful blades ... Thanks for sharing this 1!

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Love the blade, she is a beaut!

And to boot a nice looking early hanger to go with.

Congrats on the buy Larry!

Karin good to see you posting here!!
Lots of good knowledgeable people on this forum.
A bit of estrogen is a good thing!
Welcome!!

Very nice dagger a keeper for sure

Very nice dagger Larry Congrats with the newbee

I wait for the postman too this week SS M 33 Hammesfahr and a SA
Regards LH

Very nice dagger with a lovely MM.

OOh I like them like that, but "Her indoors" is curtailing the expenditure until holiday season is over.....booooo!

Thankyou everyone for your input,, it means alot. Im very happy with it. Welcome Karin aka "Krullies to the forum. There is alot of history here to be learned and taught of this time period. You came to the right place, but I still need a better camera ,Best regards Larry

Sweet dagger and MM, congrat

Sam,

Thank you Not quite sure? But, did we meet over a HACO-issue somewhere? I might be stupidly mistaking, I'm sorry if I am? But, just ... I dunno, nevermind. Thanks very much for the welcome

And *LOL* yes, I'm aware of the lack of estrogens ... I'll do my best not to be "that silly *insert preferred naming for opposite gender here (but do so quietly, estrogens CAN cause unexpected violence, verbal + nonverbal)*" too much ...

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

It is always great to be with old friends, see great new items, harrass old time dealers (that's you, Paul) and to welcome new members to this grand old club.

Congrats to all.

John

Hi Larry! Sorry, missed your welcome, where's my manners ... thank you also for the welcome

I wanted to ask you ... I see you have in-scabbard-pics of your blinding-by-crossgrain dagger, so, do you keep it IN or OUT of the scabbard? And, does it matter, if there already are some runnermarkings on the blade? I guess so, these marks get worse, but, I've been reading about adjusting the runners + and cleaning/oiling them so they scratch less/no more?

Just asking, I'm sure you're giving this here awesome dagger proper care + attention

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Hi Karin, Normally I store the blade inside the scabbard, but for photographic purposes I took the photo with it partially out. After almost 80 years gone by runner marks can not be helped. Over time and previous owners like to view their prize once in awhile.This causes alot of "in and out"runner marks. I myself dont dare make adjustments on runners. I am not qualified to do that and dont want to risk accidental damage to the dagger and further depreciate the value. For me I will leave it alone. Every dagger owner has their preference on a clean or unclean dagger. Unclean meaning the natural patina that builds up on the metal parts that gives it that historical age look to it,,and some use a super fine polish to clean the metal parts, to make it look new. Again its up to the owner. I have some with runner marks and some without,, but all are equally cared for, no matter what the condition. I also once in awhile use a thin oil to keep the blade protected. Preventive maintenance!! Do you collect also Karin? If you do we would like to see! Best Larry

Yes Karin we Haco'ed a while back on another forum!!
Best
Paul

Hi Larry,



So, OK, but arent you ever afraid you'll get spots on the blade where the runners rest against it? I've seen blades with WEIRD spots like that, usually called water stains?

Anyway, I love the sight of both daggers inside + outside its scabbard. But I'm afraid of wrecking the blade by putting it in the scabbard.



I agree, I see some WAY minty blades on this forum? SO mintlike its scary! But, yes, none of those blades are getting younger.




I know *LOL* I gave myself a present last Xmas, I had a little surprise, some money from an extra job I quit earlier then I planned, reckoned I wouldn't get any pay from that, but I did! YAY! I was blinded by an awesome transitional Eickhorn NSKK, + figured "what the hell" and bid on it. And I won! But, when I got it, I had to clean the grip? Some weirdo vague goo'ish glue or whatever was on it? So I polished the lower crossguard, had to do the top 1 too, to keep it in balance? And, YES, fogot about the scabbard, djeezz, so, did that too. Did NOT get much votes "in favor" on another forum when I came clean of doing this viscious action on the dagger Anyway, that filthy grip, just HAD to ...



I use Break Free Collector in a can, with cottonballs, or Break Free Preservative Wipes when I'm feeling lazy *LOL*



YES Well, I showed some things elsewhere, how's the rules of cross-posting? I mean, I love "my" thingies, but, I'm not sure theyre interesting enough to post on 543654 different sites? Hell, I used to only visit 1 forum, I find it VERY hard to keep track of many sites? And, I figure most of you are visiting other sites too, so, no need to show anything more then 1ce?

I mean, OK, I have an AWESOME early Herbertz & Meurer here, SO gorgeous! I replaced the scabbard-tip-screws, the 1s in there, couldnt possibly be real, they had a flat head? No good! There are some better 1s in it now, but I wonder if these are early or late screws. They were bought as early, but look like late. That would be an alibi to post the dagger here, maybe, yes? With new pics?

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Ah! See? I knew it! Youre that there Paul! There you were, giving ALL sorta mysterious clues, just making me SO anxious to know more ... and then, you left me HACO'ing all by my lonesome self! *LOL*

Anyway, just kidding, ofcourse ... So, your HACOs, you probably have more than 1 in your collection? Must be ... are they somewhere to be seen? Your HACOs? And, was I getting warm? Or ...

Curious,
Karin-Renate

Hey Karin, I would only worry about water stains if I was careless and left it in an unchecked environment,, like a bucket of water. I dont see anything wrong with cross posting since some of us including myself have not visited other sites. We would still like to see your "thingys" as you say, since we have showed you ours. No pressure just curious. Do you collect just SAs or are you a well rounded collector with a little bit of everything? Best Larry

Hi Larry



Well, Ive been asked if I have a preference, or niche? But, so far, no ... I find new thing that are awesome every day! And, YES, I love daggers, I'm weird that way? But I also like an iron cross, or a period newspaper, or a pin, I love tinnies, and so on, and so on ... in fact, I just posted 2 tinnies, KDF pins. These are SO pretty! So, maybe, 1 day, Ill have a niche? But right now, not so much, Im loving lots of stuff And yourself?



*LOL* Not something acceptable to do then? OK, crossing .. from .. list .. no bucket of water ... I am gonna try a, well, not a whole bucket, but a bit of oil anyway, in a bucketlike thing, and have a dirty blade soak in it for a few days, see if it removes some rust?



OK Larry, I'll post stuff, thanks! Ill PM you if I add something? With the amount of posts here I guess You cant keep track easily ... ?

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Hi Larry!

Here you go Sir

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=223186#Post223186

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

As was I was looking through Verns, fantastic reference library on RZM codes,, I did not see any listing for My daggers maker. My question was Gebr.Becker too small to be included, within the RZM? I know there are rarer maker logos of small firms that have been included on the list. I saw no gaps in the list except at 1 spot RZM107, but that one is unknown.
Are there other makers that were not included? In kind of a way I like the thought that Gebr.Becker was not included on the list and still retaining its identity..OR.. did this firm go out of business early before the RZM came into the arena??
Any answers? all input appreciated. Larry

Hi Larry,

Its 1 of the nicest most fun makermarks, yes, I love it! This 1, + the little flower, or the double horsies! Anyway, Gebr.Becker, I think the firm wasnt licensed an RZM M7 code for some reason, and couldnt be producer for political daggers. Not all early makers received/earned RZM codes.

The list is very great! I think 107 is the only unknown gap, but there are also some double, like M7/33 (H�ller + D�nzer), M7/29 (Klittermann + Jacobs) + some other M7 numbers too. Its complex, and, documentation often lost, unfortunately.

Still, your lovely cook mark? Truly very fabulous

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

It is probable that some firms did not meet up to RZM standards. Although your dagger is quite impressive, and craftmanship is well,,still it is hard to say the reasons why,, without guessing,,What and who was involved at the higher end of the RZM and its affiliated offices.

Hi Everyone, Here is a Gebr. Becker with a plastic grip, nats

Hi Nats,

Plastic grip? Wow ... Is that, like the grip on those souvenirdaggers, with the cross-in-circle as makermark? Like here, for as long as its there? And those crossguards, look like aluminum. Cool

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Nice dagger and a great maker. I also have a Becker and it seem from comparing our examples Becker did use a very heavy lacquer on the scabbards. Becker made a quality SA.

Absolutely WW2 Collector!! I beleive they did but now it makes me wonder after seeing a plastic gripped Becker that the RZM must of laughed and said no way!! Just my opinion. All in all and no disrespect intended towards Nats,, someone once called me a purist which I consider a compliment,, and after seeing a plastic gripped Becker,, it takes away from the craftmanship of an old company. Again thats just me and my preferences for early SAs. So Nats it is a great conditioned SA if it were a late model IMO. I just cant seem to accept it as an early SA,, although I do not encounter hardly any at all to look like that on early daggers. Maybe Im still under a rock with some things!! But a "Purist" I will always be.

Another question though is I thought "ALL" firms had to comply with the RZM or risk being closed,, I like to hear more information on that.
Krullies was a good opener for information which leaves more questions,,and I thank you for that Karin!!
I also would like to see how many other firms never made it to the RZM,,Im sure it might be surprising. Best Larry

Hi all, hey Larry!

Other firms that didnt make the RZM list? Well, quite a lot actually! Like, just for names starting with A or B, gives this list below for makers that only made early SA Dolche;

Aesculap
Alcoso (but its still questionable that Alex Coppel made SA daggers at all, he was jewish, the company suffered from that, and Coppel was forced to sell his factory to the state very cheap, a little info here or here)
Amso
Bahrl
Balke & S�hne
Barthelmess
Gebr. Becker
Ed. Becker (Kolumbuswerke)
Bender
Gebr. Berns
Hugo Berns
Bickel
Bodenstein
Bonnsmann
Brosy Steinberg
Br�ckmann
Bulldog (Halbach)
Busch
B�chel
B�hme
B�ntgen & Sabin

But I can't go list all makers, without making people angry, I think? You realy should get this list Larry, its great! Much fun to use + learn from, really! And also, what you wanna know? Is VERY eazy to see there But, I guess, even that list is changing? For instance, with shifting RZM codes, like I mention above. And sometimes new stuff is discovered, or figured out by people. But its really a nice listing! Trust on me on that 1 Or buy the Siegert book, it has all these wicked pics to boot, and much, SO much more! OR ofcourse the McSarr list, I guess its on that 1 too?

Enjoy,
Karin-Renate

Thanx Karin very interesting and I must look again in Ralfs book. Cool stuff

HI All,

I thought I'll share mine (recent purchase from 777)> Really love the MM on this one. And this is a minty piece. Pictures courtesy of Adam as well.

And full glory.

Very nice Overlord Pics taken with G 11 ?

Very beautiful,in nice condition and with a very interesting MM.

OverLord Thanks for sharing, The pictures are awesome. You have a great conditioned rare maker,, The white background really brings it out! I think the next time I photograph,, i will try bouncing or defuzing my flash. Overcast days work well also. Great pics!! Larry

nice daggers men & women. as to the rzm codes tons of companies never never went long enough on the production to be offered the code. some early companies only made a few, some I believe ,never made any , just not capable to do so. joe blow across the street made them with that guys maker mark, for a price.
also intresting on h.j. daggers by e.pack; with maker mark & rzm logo but NO number !!
They seem to never had a number, But they are found with 1936, 1937 ,& 1938 dates. "violating the law for 3 years ".
also note rzm assigned to companies BUT, no edged weapons found with that company name OR the rzm number. many of these actuall made political Marked table ware !!

and Alexander Coppel (alcoso) never made S.A.,S.S., or H.J. daggers. they did seem to make everything else.
only post war S.A.,S.S. with the scales logo.
the more you get into this field, the more question you find.
j.h.

Hi Jeff,

Would you clarify what laws were violated. Company name,RZM? Thanks.

sorry for my delay....
Mikee, as I under stood ,as a maker of any political item, one would have to ask for approval, to make.
then you had to make an example based on one allready approved.
then submit that item in , which they said yes or no.
you can find items from time to time still with the approval tags, most offen seen on insignia.
Now , since any item was to be sold in a outlet store setting, these items Had to have the rzm mark on them, to show the buyer that this was an approved item for sale by this company.
colth items of course ussually have a sewn tag , or paper one.
Later era s.a/s.s./nskk/ h.j. knives also had paper tags affixed to them.
It was a violation of the law to make any item with out the approval of the political system.
all of this was put in place to help standardize the items them selves ,ensure quality controll, & limit who made what( which is a bigger/another topic).
To the best of my knoledge , E.Pack never had approval to sell these items
IN 1936ish, when these types of knives were nolonger being made ,then sent to the"depots",but open for sale in special shops; they were told they HAD to get the rzm numbers. hence the transitional marked blades. companies still want their marks on them, specially since there is now an option to buy a specific company made item.
I doubt anyone cared then as we collectors do today about specific companies.
now ,I'm assuming h.j. knives were sold the same way.

on any of these items you still had to prove you were a member , & allowed to buy it. SS daggers to my knowledge was always a presented item....... don't know if one destroyed his how he could get another.
remember, before the o.k. to sell in stores (at least on the s.a.)they all went out to the diffrent districts ,They would "check" quality , ect. , then stamp the back of the cross guard with their district abbreviation.
J.H.