Hi everyone. Have just joined your forum and would like to introduce myself. My name is Ross and I have been collecting TR since 1975. I got my first dagger in 1978 and collected the bolk of my 23 daggers in the 80s and early 90s so got them at good prices.
Would like some comments on a SA dagger I got from Johnson in 1987. It is in fantastic conditon but my feeling, as a jeweller, is that it was pollished by a jeweller to give it a tune up. The blade also I think may have been polished. It has all its cross grain with only very minor evidence of rust spots in a few places so it would have been a very fine touch up by a buffing wheel. The cross guards have very little wear or dints so again it was only a very fine touch up by a buff. Will post images laiter.
Do you think its value has been reduced greatly by this as I think it was done by a professional. And what do you think its value would be now.
If you go to my blog site you can see me and my photo albums.
http://ross-the-jeweller.spaces.live.com
Thanking you for your help.

Ross

Hi Ross, welcome to the forum.

Best to post some pictures when you have them for comments/opinions.

Thanks for that.

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The dagger has been very, very cleaned ... perhaps a little too well.

Some bad news, mate - The buckle of the hanger is a fake and perhaps the leather as well but I am not sure ... but the buckle is a reproduction as the real ones are are oval. Sorry for the bad news.

I've been to NZ a few times, but the closest I got to you was Dunedin. It was colder than a well-digger's wallet as I was there is June about 10 years ago. But the beer was good so who am I to complain ?

Thanks Dave. Have only got two daggers from Johnson. The first was a HJ which was a fake. Sent it back. Done again I suppose. You would not expect that from someone with his authority would you.

Cheers Ross. Yep the beer is good.

Hello Ross -

Welcome to the forum. Dave is correct about the hanger, it's a distraction from a very nice dagger. Your Carl Tillmans, although having been cleaned, appears to be a very nice looking piece. It's also relatively rare as far as maker's are concerned. It rates 8 on the McSarr list.

I like that maker very much and the dagger still has a good amount of crossgraining remaining. I must agree with Dave that it would be better if it were not so polished. Get a correct buckle from Johnson and you have a beauty there. Tom may be kind enough to do that for you if you let him know.

Mark

Thanks for comments chaps. Am feeling a bit better about it now. I got it 20 years ago from Tom so don't feel so confident about contacting him about it. Timid sort of chap I am.
Anyhow I like the feeling I get from this forum.

Cheers

Ross

Hi Ross,
Welcome to the forum.
I'll take it off of your hands for the price you paid in 1990, just kidding. Mark is right take that hanger off and find another. I would contact T.J. it never hurts to ask he might even have one he can sell you. If not check with some of the other dealers like Wittman, Gotlieb, Lakesidetradder Etc. Heck do a post in the "Wanted Forum" someone has one out their.
I'm no expert but as far as the value goes it is worth more than $600.00
Eric

Hi Eric

Thanks for kind offer to take it off my hands. Must decline though. Just for the record it cost $230 US in 1987.

Ross

OK everyone now in addition to Mint, Mint++, Mint+, Mint-, Mint--, near Mint, almost Mint, nearly Mint,close to Mint,virtual Mint and about Mint, we have the new MINTISH. Lets be sure to use this adjective enough in the near future so we get sick of it. Mike

How about, "stone cold mint".
Is that better than "mintish", or maybe is less than "Mint ++" ?
I mean seriously, there's one dealer out there that grades his daggers as being "Near mint ++", how near mint can a dagger get when he claims that it is "NM++". Wouldn't you think that a "NM++" would be nice enought to be "Mint" ? It would at least rate as a "Mint -", don't you think ?

I always enjoy an "after dinner mint"

I just bought an expensive NM dagger, it was Excellent++ at the best, maybe..


Mike W.

I love the Mint Julips!

Tsuba- Welcome to the forum and congrats on a great dagger!!!
Good Hunting,
Johnny

I love the US mint!

PVON

Mint is as Mint does ...

My Mama told me that life is like a box a mints, you just never know what you're gonna get ...


;o)

You are exactly correct Patrice-In addition to the stone cold, add the famous DROP DEAD MINT. Mike

How about....
Mint alicious
Mint astic
Mint ational
Mint tine

Hi guys. Glag your having fun but I am in the dog box with Tom and would like to make a public oppology regarding my comment on the bad HJ I got off him. He would like me to print the e mail he sent me but I cannot work out how to copie and post.

Anyhow I did buy a HJ off him in 1987 which had " Germany " on the blade and all credit to him he put me right and refunded me. I still have all his correspondence regarding this knife. At the moment he thinks he did not sell me a bad one. At the time he thought it was probably an end of war one made as a GI souviner and said to me he will look closer at his knives before selling as he did not spot Germany on the blade.

Regarding the buckle he will replace it for me if it is bad but he says there were square buckles made and I have sent him more shots of it to look at.

Well chaps and Tom my words were not meant to offend. They were just statements based on me taking peoples word about the buckle and the factish that I did buy a bad knife all those years ago.

Will keep you posted on the buckle.

Time for a beer.

Ross

Thanks for all those hits on the blog site. Now do I look the type to deliberately offend people?

Cheers

Ross

I dont think anyone is offended, we are just having a little fun. Do a google search for SA Hangers and see if you can find any with a square buckle. I have never seen any, but I havent really been looking either.

In all fairness to Tom, I have had and seen a couple of SA Hangers with square buckles over the years. My impression is that they were pre-regulation hangers and of private sources in the 1933-1934 period and not the standard SA Hanger we are used to seeing.
That being said, the source was directly from a US veteran, so I know they were period and on nice early SAs.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: Dave, I have also seen early SS Hangers of the same background with square buckles.

Regarding the hanger, I have to agree with Ron. I, too, have on occasion encountered square buckled SA hangers that were original.

Personally I think that's a fine looking dagger.

Great news. Something new turns up in the hobby all the time.

Can either of you post a picture of another of these rectangular or squarish buckles so we can confirm it's existance ?

Dave

Welcome to the forum Ross. -wagner-

Ross, you are in the dog box for calling a HJ knife with Germany on it a fake ?

Joe

Thanks for all your comments chaps. Will post shots of the hanger front and back. Tom is probably right about it being good. Its quallity and condition is consistant with the dagger. I hope he now remembers the HJ as I have sent him the catalogue number etc when I got it. I think he was a bit taken back about me discrediting him even though a mistake was made at the time of listing the HJ.

Ross

Have just got mail from Tom and it is the reall deal and quite a rare one. He offered me two normal ones for this if I want. Anyhow he thanks Ron for his input as a seasoned collector.

The leather is stamped RZM L2/371/39

Ross

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Dang Ross, I'd take him up on that. That hanger is too late for the dagger you have, which is earlier...unless it was a "replacement". It's a nice dagger, and you must be storing it very well, as I'd think some patina would start to redevelop over these last few years. I'd like to add a hearty welcome as well!

John

Herr Hohaus: I don't have any here any more. It was back several years when I restored lots of daggers for collector friends and others. The ones that I saw were not in that great shape so I frequently replaced the leather strap. I, personally, always thought they look alot nicer than the oval types. I also want to add here that those that I saw were made of steel (magnetic) because I remember removing some rust from one in particular.

Ross - send it back !

Joe

Just put a magnet on this one and the clip and buckle are magnetic. Not an ounce of rust on it. Will keep because of rarety and yes it looks good too. I don't think the 39 date on leather is too much of a problem.

Ross

Herr Vogel. I lost a bet with myself. I was certain you could made one up by now to show us .

Dave

Herr Hohaus: Actually the oval ones are easier to make. I used to buy the clips from Johnson or anyone who had any and then made the entire hanger. Furthermore, the oval ones don't require any explanations.

Hello all,

I am posting the following at Tom Johnson's request:

"Dear Ross:

Thank you for your returned email of 26 January. I just had a look at the color scans of the SA dagger hanger with horizontal buckles, and I can tell you that I not only believe this hanger to be original, but also a quite rare SA hanger. The SA used a variety of different dagger hangers. I will take a look at my website and/or printed sales list, and if I have some SA hangers available, I will be willing to trade you two of the oval buckle hangers for this one rectangular buckle hanger. I noticed that Ron Weinand, who has been around this hobby for decades, and some other members of the forum are also familiar with square buckles on both SA and SS hangers. It is somewhat irritating for newcomers to absolutely condemn an item (on the internet for others to read) as being a post-war reproduction when the statement is made due to a lack of experience. Thankfully, there are a few "old-timers" around to set the record straight! Let me know, Ross, if you would like to go forward with the trade, a two-for-one……We sell literally hundreds of German daggers each and every year, and have a return ratio that is practically non-existent. Incidentally, have a look on the same SA/NSKK page of your forum, and pull up the thread entitled, "SA in-wear pic" by Vic Diehl. Take a good read of it, Ross, because here is an SA hanger that some members of the collector community condemned as a reproduction for years only to find out that it is absolutely correct. Variations existed from the numerous accouterment manufacturing firms, as evidenced by this and other "in-wear" photographs that prove their existence. All the best and I look forward to your reply.

TMJ, President of JRB&M"


Best,
Skip

Just for the heck of it after this thread appeared; I went through my modest collection of SA daggers and studied the hangers. I guess it had never dawned on me before but from what I can see there is considerable variance in the shapes and sizes of the buckles. No I don't have a square one like the one pictured here.
Hopefully someone like Kingtiger of Dr Mike with more extensive collections will do the same with theirs.
Here's two examples from my collection. Notice how more elongated the example is on the left when compared with the example on the right.
Jim

I've looked through my SAs and found no rectangulars. I dont believe I've ever seen one. Yes there are minor differences in the hanger buckles-the lengths can vary by as much as 1/8 of an inch (although the widths seem standard). The clips can vary as we all know-the short snouted nickel silver ones more commonly seen on early SAs are prime examples.Of course the length of the leather varies greatly also.Mike

Jim, the crossguard on the above SA is on backwards, turn it around. Mike

I know Mike but that's the way I got it and I've been reluctant to disassemble the piece.

I measured the two examples above:
Left example: L=33MM W=21MM
Right Example: L=31MM W=21MM

As you can see the left example is 2MM longer than the right giving it a more elongated appearance.
Jim

In my humbleness i have learned something new, Tom and Ron thanks for setting me stright. As a fairly new collector i can only refer to the books at hand and i never came across this topic in any of the reference books. I have not and most likely will never handle as many daggers as T.J. or R.W., i can only dream i will have the chance to do so. I hope T.W. covers this in his new book for all to learn.

Ross it is plausible the leather hanger was period replaced considering how much these daggers were worn and the constant swinging of the dagger, after all it is only a strip of leather. Just a thought, considering the times, cost of a dagger and the small price of the hanger it would have been replaced once the leather started to show wear and i'm sure some of the Sa members would go to a supply store, supplier etc. and buy one or a half dozen or so at a time.
I think you made a wise decision to hold onto the rare hanger.

Great thread, all of us new and seasoned collectors have learned something here.

Eric

Hey Jim: Wile you're at it fixing that hanger you might consider turning around that lower crossguard. The gaumark orta be in the back.

Jim: Forgot to mention, that hangerclip is on there the wrong way.

Hi Eric

Those were my thoughts exactly regarding the leather being changed. Judging by how well the original owner looked after this one he would have changed the leather and possibly used the original buckle since it was different to most others out there.


Ross

Manfred:
Already noted above in my reply to Dr. Mike. I left it that way because:
*That's the way I bought it out of the woodwork
so I left it alone:
*If everything posted here was perfect no one would have anything to say!
*All of the above.

I guess I really should have posted pictures of the vet purchase sabre I bought awhile back with a shooting lanyard attached to the scabbard ring. The vet insisted the lanyard was a "hanger" so I didn't argue with him about it.

On a serious note: I had an SS hangers leather literally disintegrate in my hands awhile ago so I basically try to just leave them alone.
Jim

Here are three leather covered politicals. Two of them are NSKK, the third is a Naval SA. The strange thing is that the NSKKs have the scabbard fittings over the leather. The SA has the leather cut net to the fittings.

OOps, Forgot the picture

Sweet looking Daggers you have their.

Though uncommon, and confirmed by others, they did make and use this type of hanger. I have has maybe three over the years.

Gailen David

I talked with Gailen yesterday afternoon and encouraged him to post this.

My sincere apologies to everyone including Ross, Tom Johnson and JRB&M for misleading you. I was wrong to say that the hanger was a fake based on the shape.

I have since talked to another person who says he has seen them as well. I don't know if he will post or not.

The most interesting thing, apart from finding out that is another type of hanger out there is that Gailen and my other contact have different views about the materials. Gailen told me that he remembers the ones he saw as being later production made with steel buckles and marked leather while the other gent remembers only nickel-silver buckles and snaps with unmarked leather.

Again, my apologies,
Dave

Dave: You would have had to be doing this of along time to know of this hangers exsistance. In 40 years I have only owned three.

Even when I had one of these hangers I always did a double take.

Gailen David

quote:

Originally posted by mvogel:
Here are three leather covered politicals. Two of them are NSKK, the third is a Naval SA. The strange thing is that the NSKKs have the scabbard fittings over the leather. The SA has the leather cut net to the fittings.

Manfred... any chance you could show more of the 3rd dagger along? I have one very similar and there's not much information on these. Cheers, Scott

I am still surprised to hear of this as it was apparently not a unique item.

One can find early SS and SA hangers that are probably unique but these are usually based on the use of available hardware. Like the attached photo.

Then there are some early ones seem to have been made in the same pattern as others, but with variant parts - like the one in Vic's picture on the first page of this thread or my SS vertical on the first page. They both use what the British collectors call "Dog Lead Clips".

Here is the back of that one. Familiar shape and hardware but totally different construction.

My guess is that it was probably made using the buckle and snap from original short hanger.

Then there are some that seem to have been made in numbers and even had a pattent applied for. Here is one, like the "dog lead clip" one, that I heard of for many years, but not seen or found. In a short time, I found two:

These hangers can function as vertival hangers - as seen above - or be reconfigured so the dagger hangs on a slant.

Gailen actually sold me a very similar hanger attached to an SS dagger. It looks the same, but cannot be reconfigured to carry the dagger at a slant.

My point is that apart from the unique stuff or the fakes, most of the hangers that were made in any quantity are known to exists.

I was unaware of the rectangular buckles on one-piece hangers, so again my apologies to all for misleading you.

Now, everyone look through their goodies again and see if you have one.

Dave

I collected early vertical hangers for many years. I no longer do and have long since sold them all. Until these hangers were standized in 1934 the political guys use to have them made up since they got tired of the dagger banging into everything.I had fourty to fifty different designs.Don't see many of them anymore.

Gailen David

Also if you have any of these hangers there a few guys who collect the different ones. I believe Dave is one such collector. So if you have an unusual one you might be able to really stick it to him. Ha! Ha!

Gailen David

I got a few of Gailen's SS ones.

Dave

Herr Hohaus: Considering dthe variations in style and fabrication it is obvious that many of these hangers were made in little cobbler shops drather than in larger fabrication outlets who would have paid close attention to kuniformity and style and regulations if there were any. So, how would you know if all of those hangers were made period. You obviously can't make a determination by style and conformity to regulations. All you can do is judge by the age of the leather which would be pretty subjective.

I have made several of these hangers for collector friends using original hardware and old leather from women handbags available at Goodwill stores. In most cases it was done to replace an original hanger destroyed by the dryrot.

Hi Dave

We have all learnt things here and I have nothing but respect for people who are prepared to admit they were wrong.

No problem Dave.

Cheers

Ross

PS

If you get to NZ again look me up for a beer.

sdp: I have posted the picture with the three daggers inadvertantly in the wrong topic, so I reposted it again under the leather scabbard thread.

Ross,

I will let you know ... but it is not too likely.

I visited NZ for two weeks in 1976 and saw a lot of the South Island. Stayed at Mt.Cook - the Hermitage and visited the big hydro project under construction at the time. Then again in 1996 and again visited only the South Island. Last Kiwi beer I had was in the Biggles Bar in the Auckland Airport.

Dave

Sure would like to go there.

Gailen

Hi Ross ,please post some more pics of your dagger collection are they all in as nice condition as this one ?

Gailen,

It is not that expensive to fly, but you got to love airplanes as it is a little over 13 hours from San Fransisco to Auckland.

Dave

Add 7 hour from Florida and that's a big 20 hours fight. Getting to old for that.

Gailen

Hi everyone.

Your all most welcome to get in touch if you brave the long flight. Will do a mass photo of my knives. Have just got the basic ones but a few are quite good.Posted my favourite SAs on wehrmacht-awards on the thread about showing your SA daggers. Same name Tsuba.

Have to go to town so will do laiter.

Ross

I too think it's a nice Dagger.Dutchman.