Is this list complete and correct?
Known Early SS Makers (Logo only) "R" = R�hm maker "?" is just me.
Backhaus
B�ker (R)
Bertram
E.P.&S.
Eickhorn (R)
Gembruch
Hammesfahr (R)
Herder A.S., F
Herder R. (R)
Jacobs
Klaas (R)
Klittermann
Kober (R)?
Krebs
Louper
Puma
Sch�ttelh�fer
------------------------------------------
Early maker with (known) SS Number:
Klittermann (324)
Sch�ttelh�fer (534)
Eickhorn (R) (941)
Klaas (R) (1051)
F. Herder (1203)
E.P.& S. (1211)
-------------------------------------------
Unidentified SS number marked makers:
120
121
188
807
1052
1054
1189
1196
1198
1317 - (?)
----------------------------------------------
RZM Number but no known SS number:
7/14 L�neschloss - (?)
----------------------------------------------
Known SS Number with EM logo:
15/38 and 15/39 J.A Henckels - (?)
1163/Helbig - (?)
-----------------------------------------------
Use of political RZM number only on SS dagger
M7/29 (Klittermann) - (?)
Use of RZM and SS numbers
M7/37 & SS 1051 38 and 39 Klaas (?) (Any ideas why they would have put RZM in front of an SS number?)
M7/80 & SS 1197/39 Spitzer
M7/81 & SS 1241/39 Eickelnberg or Tiegl Breslau - (?) (Any ideas why they would have put RZM in front of an SS number?)
-----------------------------------------------
SS Number only on dagger and no known early logo only production (How are these attributed?)
1164 - Malsch., David
1166 - Voos
1197 - Spitzer
1202 - Christianwerk
1221 - Malsch., Karl
1222 - Schmidt
1241/Mack & Eickelnberg (Simply because they are known to have made SA?)
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.
What about RZM 7/72 1942 See a thread in March 2005 for more and Dave Hohaus mentions it in a June 2005 thread on makers marks
AJ I had already done a search for 7/72 in the SS forum but couldn't find it anywhere. I kept being returned your recent mention of it (which, sadly, had no replies) and during a March 2006 thread concerning the 1940 SS 1317.
Ha! I believe I know why Klittermann and Moog are using their RZM and SS number early and why only Eickhorn and they are!
Think about it guys!
Will look manually and get back to you
In SS section try page 11 "1942 dated dagger"
Also page 9 "dagger list "2 may be of interest
Cant find other thread but will post tomorrow once Ive refered to notes on my desk at work
I know of at least 6 RZM SS codes not found in Whittmann's reference:
M 7/5
M 7/56
M 7/72
M 7/83
M 7/2
M 7/68 RZM 316/40/SS
RZM 285/38
Thanks Paul, are we to assume these are:
Carl Jul. Krebbs
Carl D. Schaaff
Karl R. Kaldenbach
Pl�macher Sohn
Emil Voos, Waffenfabrik (also SS 1166)?
Lauterjung und Co. Tiger
RZM 285/38 (?)
Where did you learn of these from?
were they just RZM or Dual transitional?
Have you seen more than one of each example? were you happy with them (and all that entails)?
Were they made of all later parts (plated etc.,) or early parts?
Cheers.
I've done a hands on with them all in person over the past several years, with the sole exception of the Tiger.
I handwrite each code into Whittmann's reference after I am comfortable with it's correctness and have got a 2nd opinion, usually by Tom, Dave or Bernie. I am convinced that there may well be more. BTW, I don't check the entrails of a dagger that has never previously been apart- a rarity anymore.
Tom freely admits that the RZM code list in his book is not complete, it sure is a good start.
As far as multiple examples, I personally have seen more than one example of M7/5, M7/72, M7/2 amd RZM 285/38
The codes I have listed are the only marks on the back of the blade.
Thanks Paul,
I'm surprised about Carl Julius Krebs as Tom makes specific mention of this maker in his book and presumes 120 or 121 may be attributable to them. This sort of contradicts earlier comments made in the book regarding this maker; would they utilise an SS assigned code early only to then swap it out for RZM later?
I'm curious to know if daggers with the political RZM etched only (no SS number) are later production examples (after 37/38/39/40)
...a few minutes later...
I've just read Tom's section on RZM and it unfortunatley doesn't state his published RZM/SS list is incomplete. I assumed it was as he doesn't show all examples of the numbers he has in his list.
Where can I get a complete (known sighted) list from? Does anyone have such a thing?
The swap out on Krebs?- Don't know- much is yet to be discovered. The RZM system on these daggers is not simple. I can not say I have a complete grasp on it.
The RZM no SS # etched only reflected later production. I believe the 285/38 reflected some transition features.
If you talk to Tom I think he will tell you that other examples outside the published list may exist. I believe they do.
A complete list? I think that job is for us to do.
These continue to pop up from time to time and each must be evaluated on it's own merit.
Paul
Whoops, there is also one more RZM M7/13 543/40/SS
Can people make amendments corrections to this list please?
Thanks.
1053 P. D. L�neschloss - Also M7/14
RZM = ? SS = 235 unknown
RZM = ? SS = 1204 unknown
quote:
Originally posted by lakesidetrader:
Whoops, there is also one more RZM M7/13 543/40/SS
Shouldn't that be 534/40/SS
Phew! Thanks sdp
Below is amendment to above chart.
NOTE* 68 316 should read:
RZM 68 / SS 1316 and Earliest known use of SS code: 1940
I'd appreciate being able to edit picture after 45 mins Messers Moderators?
Neal:
1052 is now believed to be Lauterjung & Sohn since at least two tagged examples have shown up in the last couple of years.
Jim
Thanks SDP, you of course are correct.
Jim, that is Puma...Should be Puma, yes? Any chance you know the dagger date(s) from the tags?
Jacobs & Co. - M7/26, M7/29, M7/118 and SS code 324
sdp,
I have this in my database: I have a feeling that they shared codes because they were contracted, along with Klittermann or picked up production from Jacobs (in the same building?), to produce a special SS dagger. It is produced year after year after year. Only Eickhorn Klitterman/Jacobs share such a consitent record.
Thanks for the thread link, Jim. Fascinating.
quote:
Originally posted by sdp:
M7/98 and M7/183 - Ernst Erich Witte
Kroneck, really! Do we have a date for this? A reference picture?
BTW *Jacobs/Klittermann in same building suggestion came from GD member Seiler (I couldn't immediately recall who mentioned it).
My 7/72 is dated 1942
Neal congrats on this thread I tried to get the guys going on RZM makers awhhile ago and drew a blank
Louper (Louis Perlman)
RZM,M7/58
Seiler(Yank in UK)
Seiler, do we have a date with this or just the RZM number? What component parts/mix e.g., nickel, plated, ally eagle... etc., crossguard markings?
AJ, same questions if you would please. I'd like to know if these are early/mid/late transitional.
If either of you could send me by e-mail a square-on pic of the motto "Meine...blah, blah..." I would really appreciate it.
Alternatively, let me know if your "T" in "Treue" is type A or B (see SS 121/34 thread) If it matches neither please tell me.
Cheers guys.
Neal,
Louper,I only know their number from my own maker marked SA very early all nickel/anodised black motto.
On SS detail,go to Wittmanns book and look for Stewart Wilsons Louper
Stewart himself told me it has a very unusual SMALL motto.
Never issued with an SS code.As said earlier on the 121/38 thread,I believe they ceased to exist early as a Jewish owner.
Really enjoying all of this.Terrific input and opinion
Seiler (Yank in UK)
AJ. I hear you about motivation; Blood...Stone... comes to mind
Seiler, I'm confused is it RZM 7/58 or 53? Where do we get the 7/58 reference from? Is your SA maker marked dual transitional (trademark and RZM)?
Has RZM M7/58 actually been seen on an SS dagger?
Fischer has Louper, LOUisPERlmann, as M7/53. (I think he's wrong but I need to get this right) My own database has Louper as 58 (I may be wrong).
I can't find a Louper attributed to Stewart Wilson... Is he "The Old Brigade"? I'd love to see it up close as it looks like a one-off SS prototype model 33 which would be really weird if they were a Jewish concern.
Just off to States for a few days will post details of my 7/72 when I get back
This is one of the best and informative threads on RZM daggers especially as Wittman section on the subject was incomplete cant believe all this info has come to light since the book was published.think it has something to do with RZMs not being rated but with only 21000 made a good one has to be a sound investment
Hi Neal,
No,my Louper SA is NOT dual marked.Only named (maker marked Flamme)
Several references I read yonks ago say /58.
Stewart is OK.You can get him at the Old Brigade.
Yes I also have difficulty with the SS/Jewish maker reference.
Cheers
Neal et al:
There was an excellent thread on Bob Rodgers forum (WMCA) that unfortunately is no longer viewable since it's shut down. It contains a great deal of information on SS Himmler Honor daggers that's found nowhere else. You may want to contact Bob or,perhaps, he could post the thread here.
Jim
Okay,
I spent a few minutes tidying the list up this evening - amending some double entries, omissions, etc. If the moderator (Dave) could replace my first two lists (typed and .png file) of this thread with this revised list and then delete this message I would be most grateful.
Any errors shout!!
1053/38 and 1053/39 are generally attributed to WKC, not Luneschloss.
Skyline,
all my references for SS 1053 point to P.D. L�neschloss cf., Carter, Fischer, Niederhofer, etal. Only Wittmann has them as WKC.
WKC was, I thought, WKC-Waffenfabrik G.m.b.H. RZM 7/42 or Sch�ttelh�fer, A. (Asso) WKC Waffenfabrik RZM 7/13 and SS 534.
Neal my &/72 is dated 1942 Lakesidetrader has had a few SAs with the sams mark the mark is illustrated in the "1942 dated dagger" thSS by the wayread I pointed you too thats my
As regards Seilers comment about jews working for the SS hundred of them did in the camps wasnt the greatest damast bladesmith Paul Muller jewish?
Thread one above should read Neal my 7/72 is dated 1942 Lakesidetrader has had a few SAs with the same mark. the mark on my SS is shown in the "1942 dated daggers" thread I pointed you to
Could the moderator remove the gobbledy gook I posted above
By the way Dave you have been extremely quiet on this one trust all is OK and your just on vacation
Neal send your email address to
[email protected] and I will foward photos of my RZM 7/72 dagger that hopefully will answer the questions you had
AJ,Comment about Jews and the SS was relative to Louper.One of the first early ,34 BEFORE the Camps existed to include Dachau,the first.
Seiler (Yank in UK)
Seiler can you email me see note to Neal above dont want to discuss the for address as dont want to discuss on the dagger forum
Neal the Tiger is marked M 7/68 RZM 1316/40/SS
I hope that someday, someone will come up with the maker for 1196. I own one and think that its unique because I believe this is the only one stamped with the SS as letters and not runes.
Neal where you got to ????
Neal did the pics of the RZM 7/72 1942 answer your questions?
Neal - I know this is "off topic" but it's nice to put a face to a name I've known for so many years. I wish more people would use their mug-shot as avatars!
Craig nice of you as one of the GDC heavy weights to add your name to what I believe is one of the best threads ever on RZM ss daggers
If I knew how I would use a mug shot as my avator
Best regards Tony AJ on GDC
Hi Neal
Thats a great spread sheet. Whats the chance of getting a copy?
Bob
[email protected]
Just print page 1 and page two of this thread thats what I did
Is Neal still missing is M7/72 A one off or what Dave Hohaus pleas contribute to this thread
Tanks tony
Sorry Neal this is a bit off topic, but what program are you using for your database? I'd like to put my whole collection into one that had a "search" engine and yours looks pretty versatile.
You guys are talking to thin air
Neal shows up for a short while each a year - 11 days this time - then leaves again.
Dave
How odd... I wonder where he goes then?
Well thats 10 days more than others!
PVON
With the recent discussions on SS makers thought it appropriate to bring this back to the top its one if not the best thread on the subject on GDC
Back to the top. nats
www.stan-the-man.tk
Found a great list on-line with pictures of the various maker marks. Here it is.(Link)
Description: RZM Maker Link
Thought it about time to bring this back to the top before it vanishes lot of info in this thread on RZM codes
Back to the top from way down yonder can we please pin this valuable thread?
Here's one i think it for tigerwerk,lauterjung&co
.jpg "ssnew5DSC00005(1).jpg")
