I wonder some opinions of the expert panel here on this forum on this dagger and the service of the seller who having this for sales in this moment Dave.
I notice this dagger was put out on another forum and i just wonder some SS collectors have some opinions for it !
A friend of me asking to make this tread ,since he are after a Himmler.
I put out this tread because this is a forum
..isnt `it ?
Hope someone can reply.
regards Lh 600
LH 600,
I have had one business transaction with Craig and it was excellent. Furthermore, Craig has a reputation for honesty that to my knowledge, has never been questioned in the three years I have read about purchases from him.
LH 600:
I trust Craig and he has never let me down. That doesn't meant that he doesn't make mistakes, but he will rectify them. You must still do your homework.
You will very, very rarely get a great deal from Craig: his prices tend to be at the high end of the market.
But, I also think that Craig has an unfair bad reputation on other forums most of which is undeserved.
John
Craig runs hot and cold. He refused to honor a money back guarantee that caused a lot of problems between us. Although I have done tens of thousands of dollars in business with him, I now would not trust most of the stuff he handles due to the swirling controversy that surrounds a large amount of his "finds". This is not a personal attack but only a personal observation as a long time EX customer.
If you buy that Himmler at that price, I think two things, it is overpriced by about $4,000+ and you better like it because you are not getting your money back...not in your "lifetime". It looks a little too dinged up and blemished to bring that kind of money IMO.
Mark
Agree with Mark,Its just very overpriced considering that there seem to be more on the market every year along with the ones being traded about.Dealers Raise the price by 10-15% every year regardless.a few years ago these were roughly $9500 and Really True mint ones were $12,500,some asked more but didnt see them flying off tables. and that was in 2002 2004.Now the economies in Europe have skyrocketed but Gradually falling so its most likely an increase for their benefit.
many thanks for the information folks.
best Regards Lh 600
"Im looking for a minty SS dagger" with the " ! "after motto Rzm 7/29 or early Jacobs klittermann & Moog.
According to the pics,too many issues for me
therefore way overpriced.
Craig has his moments according to others,BUT,
I,ve never had any issue with him on our transactions.
Seiler (Yank in UK)
Craig's prices are top shelf but I have never had a problem with any transactions that we have done.
I have had a problem with 1 item and thats all I bought...A SILLY problem too.
Well if you thought it was tooooo high $$$ you were all wrong! Its sold!
quote:
Originally posted by Eric "Von" Rader:
Well if you thought it was tooooo high $$$ you were all wrong! Its sold!
Yep, they said that about Paul Hogles $21k Himmler and TJ's offering of the month, June and July, now all sold.
Unfortunately not to me
Nolan
Gentlemen, don't think for a minute that the "asking" price was the actual selling price. I have bought daggers for thousands less than the advertised price.
Just because it MAY be sold (just because it is marked SOLD means little if anything)never ever means that it was sold for the full advertised price. You can make an offer on anything in this hobby...the prices are like the window sticker on a new car...what fool pays it?
Learn, young grasshoppers.
Mark
could be, but Craig does not discount too much. So again..........even if it was discounted 10%
your still looking at almost 19k! Get use to it folks as more collectors get in this hobby prices will rise and demand will increase, and the good stuff will become harder to get any ANY price
Tom Wittmann sold these in 1985 for 5k, well now 23 years later they are selling for 17-20k a (for a NM or better condition) 400% increase that�s about 20% gain per year.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kingtiger:
Gentlemen, don't think for a minute that the "asking" price was the actual selling price. I have bought daggers for thousands less than the advertised price.
Yep, I've also paid way below the advertised asking price on a dealer's web site.
Of course, it would be bad for business if you were to put the "real" selling price.
That's what we call, "artificial inflation".
Mind you, I also do the same when I sell my cars.
Good to know what are the values of the items underneath the pillow.
Mark is 100% incorrect: I always honor my guarantee when there is a legitimate problem with a piece. For those of you who don't know about why Mark is an "EX" customer . . .
Mark bought a dagger for $5000 from me that was 100% verifiably textbook. My competitor Tom Wittmann, who does not always see eye-to-eye with me, liked it. Mike Maclavana, who everyone agrees, knows his SA daggers, liked it (and even tried to buy it from Mark for $5000). The only person who didn�t like it was someone who had a longstanding personal issue with me. Having an axe to grind with me, this guy thought it would be funny to try to get me in trouble with someone, and picked Mark as his stooge. So this guy gave Mark bad information about the dagger � information that was factually incorrect, and contrary to other eye-witness accounts about the dagger. Mark took the information to heart, got puffed up with an �I caught the dealer� mindset, and started bashing me in public because he didn�t get his way. Despite this abusive and unwarranted behavior, I gave him many very fair options: I�d sell the dagger for him and get him his $5000, or I�d buy it back with a 20% restocking fee, or I�d give him full trade-in value. Mark, misdirected by his inflated and bruised ego, demanded a refund. Eventually, he saw the error of his ways and ADMITTED to me in an email that the dagger was okay and that he�d been mislead. And now he�s back to rumor-mongering and axe-grinding.
This was MONTHS (or maybe even a year) after Mark had purchased the dagger from me - not weeks.
Folks: Don't be fooled by Mark's attempt to "peel back the onion" on this one. This is personal, childish behaivor on Marks' part, pure and simple. This will be my last post on the subject in this thread.
And, if you don't believe my version of the story, here is Mark's apology to me, in his own words, agreeing that what I said was true. He said we should put the whole business behind us, which I was glad to do, but now?
In defence of all the good dealers out there ..I sold a very nice Imperial navy sword to a man at a max show about 10 years ago... He later came back saying he wanted his money back because there was one red and one green eye on the hilt.... I told him (that the way they were made) Another person told him they should have two red eyes.... I sold the sword again later in the show... Some people out there think dealers are like K-mart or Target. When I buy something 1st I educate myself on it GOOD BOOKS etc... Go to many shows and look, listen... Regards: Jim
Mr. Gottlieb...money back means exactly that. Show me the money????!!!
NO.....
1. re-stocking fee. That aside..you state 15% and then want to charge me 20%?
NO.....
2. TRY to get my $5,000 back..trying does not spend...cash does.
NO....
"Full trade in value". At your prices I would be a fool to do that.
Who is Mike Maclavana? If you mean Mike McAlvanah..it is indicative of your extreme lack of attention to detail.
The ill will you caused by not honoring your written guarantee and then producing an e-mail attributed to me is simply immoral.
I can assure you personally that Tom Whittmann is no fan of yours and has publicly said so to me and others present with me.
Collectors do not depend or rely upon my advice to do business with you. That choice is left to them and I can only relate a factual depiction of what I was offered and what transpired when I wanted to return a dagger. No "lifetime warranty" came into play.
I mean no personal attack here, just a restatement of your business offer as it related to the "lifetime guarantee" as re-stated in the choices offered by you in your post above.
That was my singular point. Plus, I have personally purchased daggers from you for thousands less than the advertised price as an answer to the start of the thread. I still have the tags (as well as the receipt for what I actually paid you) on the Eugene Scheidt SA that I sold you and you changed the parts on when I bought it back. I have a letter written by you on your stationary telling me how you humped up a fake Reddick blade SS full Rohm dagger to deceive the sellers family if they ever wanted to see the real one you sold me as the grandson was not authorized to sell it. I did not scan and post it, but I can if you would like. Would you? I am in the business of ethical dealing and truth, not rumors and insinuations.
My reputation in this hobby is untarnished and will remain so as long as I live.
With all due respect,
Mark
Jim,
In fairness I must say that I have done business with a large amount of dealers in this hobby and the only problem I ever had was that one described above. I have a library of reference books and am somewhat educated on what I buy. The dagger the question arose over was a not often seen SA and if it was a good one my feeling was that he could have sold it to any other collector and maintained my good will. After all, tens of thousands had passed between my hands to his...so for $5K he threw it away?
I agree with your general viewpoint. The issue here was one of established trust and honor and then simply good business relationships. I would have bought it back in a heartbeat if I was the dealer and HAD a client like I WAS.
Mark
How in the world is a 20% or even 15% re-stocking fee justified. So if I bought a 5K dagger, it would cost 1K to put it back on a shelf or re-list it on a web site. Gimme a break!
Fact: he told me this was all over, he apologized (see the email above), and admitted he was out of line and mislead. And yet, he keeps bringing it up. A good customer? I don't think so. Just another typical "Mark Paulism." Remember the facts:
Mark bought a dagger for $5000 from me that was 100% verifiably textbook. My competitor Tom Wittmann, who does not always see eye-to-eye with me, liked it. Mike Maclavana, who everyone agrees, knows his SA daggers, liked it (and even tried to buy it from Mark for $5000). The only person who didn�t like it was someone who had a longstanding personal issue with me. Having an axe to grind with me, this guy thought it would be funny to try to get me in trouble with someone, and picked Mark as his stooge. So this guy gave Mark bad information about the dagger � information that was factually incorrect, and contrary to other eye-witness accounts about the dagger. Mark took the information to heart, got puffed up with an �I caught the dealer� mindset, and started bashing me in public because he didn�t get his way - months after he'd purchased it. Despite this abusive and unwarranted behavior, I gave him many very fair options: I�d sell the dagger for him and get him his $5000, or I�d buy it back with a 20% restocking fee, or I�d give him full trade-in value. Mark, misdirected by his inflated and bruised ego, demanded a refund. Eventually, he saw the error of his ways and ADMITTED to me in an email that the dagger was okay and that he�d been mislead. And now he�s back to rumor-mongering and axe-grinding.
And now that both sides have been stated clearly, I suggest that the forum moderator close this thread. It is pointless to continue.
The hurt hog squeals the loudest.
You simply rehashed your previous post. I think I will post the letter you wrote me since you are into admissions...you admitted in writing you had faked a dagger to deceive. Now Craig this is a fact. You did. I have the letter. You were at one time an admirable fellow but for the life of me I cannot fathom why you chose to give me the intolerable choices when I felt I had a bad dagger.
Close the thread? This is what the forum is for...to let facts be known. Not take shots and accusations. I'll let the facts of this matter speak for themselves.
I appreciate the fact that the thread remains as I have made no personal attacks, only statements of fact that I can reluctantly substantiate.
I say that because I don't want to degenerate into a foolish argument. Facts, young hero, are facts.
Once again...with all DUE respect,
Mark
I can't see why you would want this thread closed if your reputation is being put into question.
yeah, why close the post. I would like to see the letter Mark has. Also, how the 20% re-stocking fee is justified.
DAVE
Please DO NOT CLOSE THE POST....there is a good solid dialouge going here on what seems to be a very legit Point...if this gets closed then its pretty obvious whats at play here and you might as well shut the doors on this Website as MOST guys will bail out.
I do not understand the whole point of this attack>> what are we trying to get proved here>>Are we trying to get Gottlieb >>to explain some thing he is not willing to explain>>Are we going to make him change his views on certain things..no so.......
Very interesting thread.
Do dealers believe in "Customers are always right"?
Are their guarantees honored based on what the customer believes or what the dealer believes?
What evidence (if needed) must be provided?
Well, I have never ever had a dealer call me after a few years/months/weeks to say that the piece he sold me was bad, and that he would give me my money back.
Now that would be something!!!
Allthough I am yet to purchase an item from Craig, I have had reason to contact him by email on several occasions, to which his reply has allways be swift and courteous. This as well as having also viewed many of his public posts and oppinions, has not unsurprisingly led me to conclude that he is both intelegent and highly knowledgeable in this field of collecting.... It is then with some concearn that various submissions, having been made regarding the integrity of Mr Gottileb, are thus far unaccompanied by any single item of evidence to substanciate them....I would therefore advise anyone with greivences who are compelled to air them publicly, to do so based not on hearsay and rumour but on the physical burden of substantiable proof ....To do so without this evidence is to slander the individual. Allegations made in this vain leave those making them open to the laws of libel,which if the plaintiff decides to persue, can be, to say the least, costly.....Put simply, either put up or shut up!
Yeah, but a 15-20% re-stocking fee!!! C'mon, thats kinda excesive isnt it? Like I said earlier, if I bought a 5k dagger, it would cost me 1K to return it. A person could make a living out of re-stocking fees!...at least for awhile.
It is impossible for everyone to have - or percieve to have - the same experience when dealing with any given individual. Personalities & ego`s do come in to play & some people are just plain easier to deal with than others. That being said, in my opinion a man is only as good as his word & a businessman (dealer) is only as good as he treats his smallest customer.
Whether Craig Gottlieb has or has not indulged in unethical activities is not relevant to a transaction on an individual item that is known to be good although it is eminently of interest to the collecting community.
A life-time guarantee on authenticity should be just that. If an item is not all it should be for any reason then a full refund should be given without question. It may well be prudent to keep a very good customer happy but after the agreed inspection period has expired then I see no obligation to refund in full on something that is genuine.
I do think it is inappropriate to post private correspondence on a public forum with the caveat that we as a community have a responsibility to expose fraud wherever that may be.
Conditions of sale?.....If any vendor clearly states their conditions of sale, and those conditions are reasonable. It is you the buyer who is by defenition agreeing to those conditions by the volintary act of purchase. If you have read the conditions of sale, as you are obliged to do in all cases of risk, and you don't like them, then you can either, negotiate preferable ones, or if this is not possible you can walk away...It would be difficult to argue Legally that a restocking fee of 15 or even 20% was unreasonable, even if you do beleive it to be excessive. It would however be unreasonable by definition, if in the small print Craig stipulated that, by selling you this item he was, for instance entitled to sleep with your wife!...So put simply, don't moan now because you didn't read the small print!
So, let me see if i follow this thread correctly.
A member asked the opinion on a dagger another member had for sale.
Then, some members took the opportunity to participated in a little character assassination. Previously not allowed here.
Then, Craig's legal beagle shows up to lecture us on the fine points of dealing with contracts.
Talk about breaking up the boredom on a slow Wednesday morning.
For what it is worth. I have had several transactions with Craig and they were all satisfactory (and profitble) I might add.
Jim
Just for the record Sir....If by using the term, "Legal Beagle" you are reffering to me, or any previous post by me made on this forum, I must inform you now that,...I have neither been instructed by Mr Gottileb, nor have I offered him my services in any part or otherwise their in. To suggest or imply this to be the case is incorrect,with out foundation and purely speculatory on you part...Oh,and by the way don't do lecture's!
I do not know, nor have I purchased from nor sold to, the main contenders in this thread. The way any business is conducted is variable. I strongly believe the customer should be satisfied with his purchase, regardless. He should also be provided a full refund, less reasonable fees, such as shipping, etc. As most know, no amount of description, nor number of photos, can substitute for the old "hands on" examination. This is especially true in this hobby, where honest differences of opinion as to authenticity, condition, etc., frequently occur. Undoubtedly, there are those buyers who regularly return items for scant or no reason. They are undoubtedly thorns in the sides of sellers, particularly dealers. I can understand the exasperation one would feel dealing with such a collector. That collector should be dealt with on an individual basis. Either cease selling to him or add the condition of a substantial stocking fee for him only. However, a large restocking fee, which could amount to thousands of dollars, is outrageous, regardless of who the seller is. If a buyer is unwilling to accept the terms of a sale, he should simply avoid doing business with the seller. There are true expert sellers and there are self-styled "expert" sellers, who can and do deceive buyers, or simply don't know what they are talking about when advertising an item. Setting a high "restocking fee" enables the ignorant and the unscrupulous to glean substantial amounts from dissatisfied buyers whether an item is permanently sold or not. For honest sellers, setting unusual sales provisions, even though it is their right to do so, tends to throw a dim light on their business endeavors.
Grumpy, I thought that was very well put. I have also considered the same concept when I look at some of the garbage on ebay.
Mr. Julian-Harvey. It is my job here, as a moderator, to lecture. If you had been here more than 4 weeks, you might know that. You should also know my post was to put this discussion in perspective so the post will not be considered a violation of the honor code. In this case it would be pulled.
Most long time collectors knows what this thread is really about.
Jim
I too think Grumpy's recent reply was excellent.
Since (probably) some dealers are following this thread, I for one would love to know what conditions needs to be met for the lifetime-guarantee to kick in when there's a question of authenticity on an item?
Is it enough that the buyer believes that the item is not correct, or does some kind of "evidence" need to be presented?
Best regards,
Guys:
At the risk of expressing some not so politically correct views:
1) Most, if not all, reputable dealers and collectors will give you an inspection period for any purchase you make. This period (3 to 7 days upon receipt) allows the purchaser time to validate the authenticity and to decide if they like or want the item in question. If the collector/buyer decides that he doesn't want it within this inspection period, he is allowed to return it with no penalty. He would, of course, have to pay to have it shipped back. And the loss to him would be any postage costs to have the item delivered to him plus any fees that he would have to pay for the initial purchase. Total cost to the purchaser would be postage both ways plus fees (ie. Paypal, bank fees, etc). There are no restocking fees charged by reputable dealers within this inspection period.
2) If items are found to be not authentic after the fact (after the inspection period), then most dealers will take it back and refund the money paid, less any bank fees or postage as above. This could take place years after the purchase. The question of what qualifies for not authentic is a good one. If one person says it is fake and ten say it is good, who is right? It depends on who the one is. For example, if Ron Weinand would say to me that an NPEA that I own is not authentic, I would place a heck of a lot of value on his opinion... he wrote the book on these! If people who have an axe to grind with certain dealers express negative opinions solely based on the dealer, I would get second or third opinions. Most of these kinds of disputes can and are handled very well by the reputable dealers. And all dealers are human, they can all make mistakes. It is how they handle their mistakes that separates the good ones from the bad ones.
3) If, after the inspection period, you decide that you don't like the piece then what can you do? You can sell it on the market and probably get less than what you paid for it, or you can try to return it to the dealer you bought it from. Why should this transaction be treated as anything other than a resale? If it were a resale, a dealer would probably offer you 70-80% of retail. Since retail would be close to what you paid for the item, in many cases, you would get 70-80% of what you paid for it. If the dealer, as per his terms of sale (which you accepted when you purchased from him... this is fact), decides to charge his restocking fee of 10-20% depending on the dealer, it is his right to do so. He may not want to do this if he doesn't want to damage his relationship with you, but he may well need to do this to cover costs, to cover opportunity costs and to discourage this kind of behaviour. Is it a lot to pay, yes, sometimes, but we all agreed to this possibility when we decide to buy from a person who states this policy very clearly.
I have had occasion to do both... I have returned items within the inspection period and have had no problems and no questions. I lost out on the postage both ways and have paid the Paypal fees to the dealer. I have also returned items a year later because they didn't fit my collection anymore and paid the restocking fee. Both sets of activities were my choice. Did I like paying the restocking fee..NO. But it was cheaper than selling the pieces to another dealer, for sure.
In the case of Craig, I have purchased from him. I have sent items back within the inspection period with absolutely no hassles. And I have returned to him items that I have had for a period of time. I have had no issues at all. Even though there are items on his site that I wouldn't buy... not a question of authenticity, but a question of uniqueness... I would rather own items that are close to textbook and unquestionable than some of the one off and unique things that he occasionally has for sale.
Sorry for my long-winded response, but I have to get this off my chest. I think it all comes back to why dealers are in business... to make money. If their prices or their policies are too onerous, buy elsewhere.
John
Well my two cents: If you don't like him don't deal with him there are plenty more out there.I have not bought from him but not because i didn't think he was fair.So i think the whole thing is just way too far off track.When you deal with people there are some that just don't click best to just move on. When no one buys anymore from some one than it pretty much speaks for it self. I AM not saying don't buy from craig i am just saying if you don't like someone spend your money else where .MY two cents
I started collecting thirty plus years ago and was fortunate enough to hook up with a dealer (I traveled with my Father to local Gun Shows as he delt in Customized 45 Gold Cup Pistols) who had a lifetime guarantee. I had bought a U-Boat badge from him and eleven years later I was showing off my medals to him and he noticed the badge and asked "Where did you get this one?" I said I got it from him a while back and he very carefully studied it and finally asked what I had paid for it. I told him and he studied the badge a bit longer and then threw it in a box of repros he kept for the re-enactors. He then told me to pick out something worth what the U-Boat badge would have been worth currently and explained that he had sold me a copy. At the time he sold it, he thought it was real. The thing that impressed me was his honesty. He could have said it was a nice badge and let it go, but as he had learned more, he passed that knowledge to me-thus I learned more. It was a great copy that would probable fool me even today. He is no longer a dealer but he still finds artifacts and calls me. The point I'm trying to make echos the jest of some of the other members. Deal with people you trust. I might add that it helps to be friends with the dealer but also remember that some of these people make their living selling artifacts. This stuff is hard to come by and I would pay 'a reasonable amount more' in order to insure that what you buy is real. If you think it is too much, pass on it. I have noted Craig's web site as I saw some nice artifacts offered for sale. I though I'd learn something more about the Himmler Dagger, could we get back to that? Thanks
Unfamiliar territory for me as I have never had to return anything (yet).
Lifetime guarantee? I would expect any decent dealer to take an item back and give a full refund (less say postage fees)if at at any future point the item was found to be a fake.
Re-Stocking fees? I suppose a dealer, or in fact anyone, would be within their rights to apply a reasonable fee for taking an item back after the initial inspection period because the buyer did not like the the item.
Hope I never have the experience and I would never have thought one of Craig's pieces would be subject to this discussion, easy for me to say though as I have only ever had good dealings with him.
Two bob's worth
Nolan
Scott, that's a nice story.
After all these years I really cannot believe there are BUYERS that are willing to put this much trust In any dealer...Not specifically Craig but all of them.
This is also not a comment on this particular deal but Guys you really have to know what your doing,You wouldn't Trust a Car dealer this much,Hell You even get a few Opinions from your Doctors so why put so much Blind Faith in these guys...I have said it many times but these guys are Relying WAY to much on their return policies.
Larry....You really could do quite well with the restocking fees...if your the Dealer...Buy the dagger for $3K...sell it for $5K...charge the restocking fee when returned...make the Grand and still sell the dagger later for may the same $5k and still make the Profit....so maybe you would not have to work to hard in knowing the items and if they are right or not.
Gentlemen-
I don't have a dog in this fight and don't give a tinker's damn about Craig Gottlieb, but I must make a simple observation regarding Mr.Howard Julian-Harvey. Sir, your spelling and grammar is atrocious. If you are, indeed, an attorney, you lack the writing skill to fight a parking ticket.
Please tell us you're kidding
what aint you got no briggen up boy?
I thought this thread was about the Himmler dagger and all the whiners that think the prices are too high, but fail to understand the market place. Just like the nice civil war items, VERY hard to find and you will PAY dearly for a nice item. Another example: firearms in general, WW2 Lugers have gone thru the roof, so what if you like them pony up the cash or get out! Collectors and dealers set the market place. If collectors would not pay the prices the dealers would not say around for long. Boo hooo should a would'a could'a but never put you $ where your mouth is. Maybe we should have bought the Himmer in 1985 for 5k and bragged about selling them for 20k today, THEN would you complain?
Kingtiger....I do believe you have this letter or Gottlieb would not be writing this;
"And now that both sides have been stated clearly, I suggest that the forum moderator close this thread. It is pointless to continue."
Sepp
GDC Gold 0292
If Kingtiger post his letter Harvey, you better get your fork and knife ready to eat these words you wrote. Kingtiger DOES NOT LIE!!
Harvey wrote:
"I would therefore advise anyone with greivences who are compelled to air them publicly, to do so based not on hearsay and rumour but on the physical burden of substantiable proof ....To do so without this evidence is to slander the individual. Allegations made in this vain leave those making them open to the laws of libel,which if the plaintiff decides to persue, can be, to say the least, costly.....Put simply, either put up or shut up!"
Sepp
GDC 0292 Gold
quote:
Originally posted by DD:
Gentlemen-
I don't have a dog in this fight and don't give a tinker's damn about Craig Gottlieb, but I must make a simple observation regarding Mr.Howard Julian-Harvey. Sir, your spelling and grammar are atrocious. If you are, indeed, an attorney, you lack the writing skill to fight a parking ticket.
Please tell us you're kidding
ha ha,,imagine all the emails privately flying around back and forth!
I juice lorve thys foorum!
On a well known (to some)UK Dealers update..
Art deco SS Boker and a Klass...how about $6000?????? each average condition indeed some would grade them Ex+ max....????
Seiler (Yank in UK)
I would hope that if any lawyers want to get involved they do so now or zip it up. I have the letter and it outlines the whole sordid tale.
My mother is not expected to live much longer and I am on my way to be with her. The rest of my family do not know where this letter is and I WILL post it as soon as I get this family sadness behind me.
Best regards to the true believers and to those who don't believe....prepare to eat crow!
Mark
Mark, I'm sorry to hear of your family situation.
Mark -
I went through the same thing a few years ago .... You have my sincere sympathy and prayers -
Gordon
Kingtiger-
Hope all this b.s. during a tough time hasnt been too much of a distraction to you from what is really important.
Dear Mark,(Kingtiger).......May I also offer my sympathy at what must be a difficult time for you.......As a long time member of this forum (7years). I have, as we all have, witnessed over the years, a number of heated exchanges between various members. These exchanges (often very ammusing)are usually little more than a chance for one member to vent a little hot air about another member/dealer, and are over almost as soon as they have begun.....But occasionally statements of fact are made that have the very real potentcial to cause damage to the reputation and credibility of those to which they are directed......Often that individuall or institution believing themselves wronged will, in order to maintain their good name, seek a legal solution and embark on an ill advised and usually very costly journey to this end.....As a long time collector of nazi regalia and a member of this forum I occasionally feel compelled to comment, and do so without bias. All the views and oppinions I have expressed thus far on this matter have been statements of fact and should be seen as such....I now, for what it's worth offer you both (Craig and Mark)some simple (and free!)advice....Talk to each other IN PRIVATE and make no more of it.....P.S. A few words about my grammar.... I usually prepair statements in the rough, then my secretary "grooms" and corrects them for public consumption.As my interest in this field of collecting is not widely known by many, this, the British side of the Atlantic, (the laughable but potentcially damageing suggestion of neo nazi sympathy exists!)you all get the typed "super fast" rough version warts and all!...Oh and by the way I don't do parking tickets!...Kind regards to you all.
Howard, Although I appreciate your counsel, I feel somewhat dragged thru the mud on this one. Craig did, in absolute fact, write me explaining how he faked a high end SS full Rohm dagger for the expressed purpose of deceiving the seller's grandfather who obtained it from the German Colonel, he has also changed parts on an SA (Eugen Scheidt)I sold him and bought back and then brushed me (a very long term customer who entrusted him with many costly transactions ranging from helmets to daggers, award documents, cuff titles and SS Honor Ring examples) aside with an absolutely insulting no win solution when I very politely initially inquired how would the "lifetime guarantee" return policy work in actual fact.
He chose this path of publishing alleged e-mails and I did rise to the bait. His biggest problem now is that he knows I have this letter he does not want made public.
I will accept a public apology from the dealer, nothing less. The letter I have is worth much more than that to him. The dagger I bought from him was purchased at a bar in Miami and some may recall that he told us of the find as he bought it wearing flip flop sandals and sold it to me the next day. That thread MAY still be here somewhere.
Kind regards to all for the kindness towards my current situation with my mom.
Mark
"Dear Mark,(Kingtiger).......May I also offer my sympathy at what must be a difficult time for you.......As a long time member of this forum (7years)."
Is the sympathy because he has been a long time member of this forum?. Seems like a back handed comment. JMHO.
Mark, I hope you see better times.
Jim
quote:
Originally posted by LH 600:
Do someone have any opinions of this one ?
Just wonder
http://www.craiggottlieb.com/data/inspect.asp?Item=2433...+Himmler+Inscription
Hello members of GDF.
I quote my self to get up the topic of this tread.
I think the tread are going to long and the best is to take care and discuss the dagger it self. ( sold now anyway )
I started the tread about this knife , and the tread flyes away with other disussions.
Hope we on this great forum GDF understand this and shut up and discuss German Daggers instead of making thing go private.
I hope members understand my meanings.
Best Regards LH 600
LH 600:
You are correct, sir.
I don't believe that anyone has raised an issue with its authenticity, only concerns about the high price. When you consider that the another, but better shape, Himmler recently was offered by Paul Hogle at 21k (maybe sold for that, maybe sold for a little less), I am not sure if the price that Craig had on his site was too far out of line.
Rare and sought after items are going up. Added to this is the decline in value of the US$ compared to other currencies, only means that the world price is not rising as fast as you think. Welcome to the world of currency inflation / deflation.
Three years ago, I paid $10k US for a Himmler, but that came to 13k in Canadian $. If it sold today, it would sell for about 17-20k on a retail site, but that would only be a little more than 17-20k in C$. You see a 100% price inflation (10k to 20k), I see 50% (13k to 20k).
It is even more pronounced when you compare to Euros or other world currencies. Now you see why prices are going up dramatically locally, but seem cheap for those living in other lands.
Sorry it this comes across as a lecture... it is not intended as such.
John
Mark,
Just a word of support during this difficult time.
-serge-
quote:
Originally posted by JohnZ:
LH 600:
You are correct, sir.
I don't believe that anyone has raised an issue with its authenticity, only concerns about the high price. When you consider that the another, but better shape, Himmler recently was offered by Paul Hogle at 21k (maybe sold for that, maybe sold for a little less), I am not sure if the price that Craig had on his site was too far out of line.
Rare and sought after items are going up. Added to this is the decline in value of the US$ compared to other currencies, only means that the world price is not rising as fast as you think. Welcome to the world of currency inflation / deflation.
Three years ago, I paid $10k US for a Himmler, but that came to 13k in Canadian $. If it sold today, it would sell for about 17-20k on a retail site, but that would only be a little more than 17-20k in C$. You see a 100% price inflation (10k to 20k), I see 50% (13k to 20k).
It is even more pronounced when you compare to Euros or other world currencies. Now you see why prices are going up dramatically locally, but seem cheap for those living in other lands.
Sorry it this comes across as a lecture... it is not intended as such.
John
Many good points you have listed John Z.
I notice near all types of SS daggers are priced high . Like you say some year ago many daggers cost near the half. the prices are on the way up and the interest of good quality ss daggers,are like fresh bread in the store
My collection of SS is still growing , but i dont have the Himmler yet
Best Regards Lh 600
I also don't see any problems with the dagger in question, and the price seems to be in the ballpark.
I'd agree that a lot of the seemingly increase in price (stated in USD) is based on the rapid decrease of USD value vs other currencies, for us in Norway the USD is 20% less than 6-12months ago..
(and LH 600 - Now is the time to buy the Himmler, they are dirt-cheap
compared to 6-12 months ago when they were selling at 14-16K)
Cheers,
I now Tor helge
But i have used 12 K last months in daggers you now. I dont make dollars either
..but if a great Himmler showns up , maybee im crazy to buy it . Paul H have a nice one resently , but sold after some days only. That was a fine one !!
Daggers is only daggers and they will always be for sales. If you have the money ready, youre on the safe side..
Mark, My best to you and your family during this difficult time. I lost my mother a few years ago so I know what you're going through. Best, Erich
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Julian-Harvey:
Dear Mark,(Kingtiger).......May I also offer my sympathy at what must be a difficult time for you.......As a long time member of this forum (7years). I have, as we all have, witnessed over the years, a number of heated exchanges between various members. These exchanges (often very ammusing)are usually little more than a chance for one member to vent a little hot air about another member/dealer, and are over almost as soon as they have begun.....But occasionally statements of fact are made that have the very real potentcial to cause damage to the reputation and credibility of those to which they are directed......Often that individuall or institution believing themselves wronged will, in order to maintain their good name, seek a legal solution and embark on an ill advised and usually very costly journey to this end.....As a long time collector of nazi regalia and a member of this forum I occasionally feel compelled to comment, and do so without bias. All the views and oppinions I have expressed thus far on this matter have been statements of fact and should be seen as such....I now, for what it's worth offer you both (Craig and Mark)some simple (and free!)advice....Talk to each other IN PRIVATE and make no more of it.....P.S. A few words about my grammar.... I usually prepair statements in the rough, then my secretary "grooms" and corrects them for public consumption.As my interest in this field of collecting is not widely known by many, this, the British side of the Atlantic, (the laughable but potentcially damageing suggestion of neo nazi sympathy exists!)you all get the typed "super fast" rough version warts and all!...Oh and by the way I don't do parking tickets!...Kind regards to you all.
Hello mate, your profile gives you as being registered just a few weeks ago with 14 posts to your credit. If you were formerly known by another name and have recently re registered it might help the rest of us figure out your above statement that you have been here for 7 years, just curious?
Nolan
********************
Edited for insults
quote:
I now, for what it's worth offer you both (Craig and Mark)some simple (and free!)advice....Talk to each other IN PRIVATE and make no more of it.....
As an unbiased observer I have the following comments to make which i hope will keep this in perspective.
It would seem to me that the only person that would benefit from this advice is Craig Gottlieb. I have to say that I am curious to understand what interest you may have in protecting this persons reputation if they have done what is alleged?
What has been alleged if true is at best highly unethical & at worst might be considered fraudulent & quite possibly criminal. Without substantiation it is merely hearsay.
Hearsay is not evidence but can be very damaging! Leave off the "Craig bashing" unless you have something other than anecdotal comments & 3rd party references.
Kingtiger has nothing to gain by levelling such a serious accusation unless it can be proved for to do so would only raise questions about his own integrity.
On the subject of dealer integrity.
It should not be a case of "buyer beware" when purchasing anything from someone who has set themselves up as an expert trader in anything, whether that may be art,antique furniture, or militaria! The whole point being that a novice or aspiring collector should be able to buy with confidence.
That gentlemen would be a very short list!
I'm sorry b_vanfossen . . . but are you saying you think the Himmler dagger which started this thread is a "fake" or the one on Bill Shea's site that Eric posted?
If it is the rupturedduck example . . . what do you see that causes you to believe it is a reproduction? Does anyone else see something about it that makes them think it is a fake? ~ Ian
I'm not seeing any fakes here !
It is much to easy to call an artifact being fake without any proof.
Someone needs to bring some evidence to sustain such claim, if one wants to be taken seriously.
What are your crudential Vanfossen ?
I don't wish to sound impolite but do you collect at all or are just a spectator ?
As I've said, you need to sustain your claim.
I wish to be impolite, Obviously B.Vanfossen is ignorant of what a good Himmer vs a bad one is. Its better to listen and learn before looking VERY silly.
Certainly not the one on Bill,s site.
Nor would you catch Wittmann offering a
"so called fake"!!!
So he is just "sounding off" in ignorance IMO
Seiler (Yank in UK)
I'm very sorry. I got my threads mixed up as I had many open.... My post about a fake was not to be in this thread!!
Gottlieb's Reference Himmler is Beautful...
I am only human and I made a mistake.
By no means did I mean to say that that was a fake. I simply got my threads mixed up by jumping back and forth reading different
threads.
My comment was meant for this thread:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/1640074465
No problem Vanfossen,
We are all humans and we are all here to help each others.
Thanks Pat. I find it a little humorous now...
quote:
Originally posted by b_vanfossen:
I'm very sorry. I got my threads mixed up as I had many open.... My post about a fake was not to be in this thread!!
He he , I bet you was the kid that brought home the wrong stuff when your mum sent you shopping
.]
At least you see the funny side, no problems on here, we all
have a sense of humour
Nolan
bring home the wrong stuff? Shoot I still forget to buy most the stuff I need when I'm at the store!