You don't see too many of these for sale:

http://www.sterlinggambino.com/Militaria_Detail.cfm?ID=1302

Plus you know it's no worries with Chip. Now... I wonder if the wife would miss the $40k?

Very sweet, and really a bargain price, all things considered. When I started collecting over 25 years ago, I held Himmlers honor SS dagger. I could have bought it for 65K, but I was making about 6 bucks an hour at the time....

Who has Himmler's honor dagger now?

my eyes just ejaculated... i want one!!

I will just look at my plain blade SS EM and be just fine.

I have seen full damascus SS Honor daggers sell for close to that number very recently.

Mark

If your going to spend that much, might as well get one with Damascus blade.

I agree Mark and Rick.

$40,000 for crossguards?!

-wagner-

@ wagner: and a different scabbard .
Regards,

Mark

I am intrigued by your comments on damascus bladed ss honors going as cheap as usd 40,000, please enlighten us further

Thanks
Jonathan

Oh..Right wotan. But OK, Johnson's got a personalized one for 10K...
Now, honor crossguards and a 8 to 10K honor (standard) scabbard. Plus standard SS dagger = ???
-wagner-

Wagner... this is not some cobbled together parts dagger here! This is a rare piece. How many are known to exist? I don't think it is appropriate to put a price on this artifact by breaking it down by it's parts.

Hello Johnathan,

there was one (early damascus blade dagger) that Tom Johnson had at the SOS last that sold within about 5K of that number. It was minty and I wanted to buy it but the taxman got me big time and I had to excuse myself from the deal. It sold around Christmas time. I had it on hold.

Do you know the one I am referring to? Also, what one asks for a dagger is almost never the selling price.

Hope that helps..

Mark

hi mark

i think you mean the chained sa high leaders ? i'd happily pay upto usd 60,000 for another damascus ss honor if the condition was there. the cheapest ss honor i've heard about is the one exchanged for usd 65,000 of ss cloth, it wasn't in a-grade condition but still a good piece and a superb bargain.

jonathan

Expensive? the market will tell us that lets see how many hours it lasts!

It is like a Pontiac LeMans,alot of the same parts but still not a GTO.

The challenge on any non-traditional dagger, is sorting through the uniqueness that makes it different, possibly attributed or personalized, and most likely expensive; and being able to qualify these special characteristics as being performed during the 3rd Reich Period. In this case you have a Factory Ground Eickhorn SS blade, that is matched to parts that we know were used for the rare SS Honor Dagger. The blade would have to had been made between Feb 1934 and June of the same year. Then the blade would have to have been ground sometime after the Rohm Purge, per as the orders of July 4, 1934. The questions being; 1) Would Eickhorn sell a dagger as new like this with these more expensive fittings, scabbard, etc, and a blade that was a ground left over in their firm ? 2) Did the original owner of an Eickhorn Rohm Dagger, return this piece to the factory to have the blade ground and also at the same time have it embellished with the new SS Honor scabbard and crossguard fittings prior to have it returned to him ? 3) Was it an option to have SS Honor fittings matched up to your 33 Standard or Rohm SS dagger ? 4) How does one show a time frame when the parts were match together ? None the less, a beautiful piece! JR

I bow to JR's logic.
Still, a wonderful piece that would be the highlight of any advanced collection.

But, WOW, how often do you see one of these go up on the boards?

John

One like this was offered publicly by TJ 5 years back. A traditional SS Honor dagger is traded privately most every year. I can name at least 10 in the last few years.

The challenge is if one wants too pay $40,000,00 on a "Yeah but" dagger.

The dagger is a bargain with these components to the piece, and 40-60K below the price of one with the traditional Damascus blade. Plus it comes with a track record of owners and sales. All of these SS Honors are kept track of when ever they change hands in collections. I've never owned either type, but would certainly welcome one to my collection.

JR, can you tell us what evidence leads you to believe that the blade is a ground Rohm? I have my own theory, however, I'd like to see if it "jives" with yours! Regards, Leipzig

There is absolutely no doubt by looking at the motto, the trademark, the crossgrain to name a few.

JR, the "give-a-way" to me was the pic of the blade reverse which showed the "wavy" spine! Do you concur, my friend? Regards, Leipzig

Absolutely...........

Jonathan, you were correct..it was a chained SA high leader and not an SS.

Thanks for excusing my 'mind stumble'.

Mark

With all the experts who have had it in their hands,one would think it would be presented as a ground Rohm,To me the dagger makes no sense.I understand that they were gifts from Himmler.When he presented it he said "You are special, but not that special"

What makes a Honor Dagger a Honor Dagger ?
I am not trying to be a "wise guy" here boys.

To me, if you there is not a Honor Blade on
a dagger, I don't consider it a "Honor Dagger".

In Wittmann's book he gives us a guide line to which to go by. So, if the blade has the "Oak Sprugs" framing the motto, that is considered an "Honor Blade".
I see no evidence of that in this dagger blade. Damascus or not.
And I am not suggesting that "Sterling" has got a "parts dagger" or anything like that. Anyone who had dealings with him knows he's one of the best.
What I am suggesting it just a question. And please just show us the evidence of what makes this dagger a "Honor Dagger".
And just because someone might buy this dagger
today for 40K doesn't mean that it's a Honor Dagger. If in MY opinion it was a "Honor Dagger" I would have made a call to Sterling and it would be now "On Hold". But that is just me. Maybe I'm all wrong...Maybe the actual blades are NOT as important as I always thought.
But until then...I see a very interesting SS dagger with Honor crossguards and a Honor scabbard with a ground Rohm standard blade...
-wagner-

The Rohm dagger was also an Honor dagger.It could have meant more to the owner than an annonymous Damascus blade.It is impossible to tell if a dagger is correct on line.It is hard enough when they are in ones hands.

I'd like to add a small contribution on terminology as the term "Honor Dagger" has had different meanings at different times.

- The SS/SA/NSKK daggers issued with the Rohm dedication on the reverse were called at the time Honor Daggers - - Ehren Dolch. The SS recipients were issue with a certificate (Urkunde) saying just that.

- The copycat SS daggers with the Himmler inscription were called the same, I think - I am not 100% certain of this, so corrections are welcome.

- High quality daggers with special crossguards, leather covered scabbards and damascus steel blades were produced with and without chains for the SS, and SA. I have seen NSKK chained versions but I am not sure I have seen an M1933 version. What their official name was at the time I do not know.

TODAY, the collecting community tends to call the ones with the fancy crossguards, special scabbards and a Damascus steel blade an Honor Dagger if it is SS or a High Leader dagger if it SA or NSKK. The mass produced Rohm and Himmler inscriptions dagger are called just that.

Dave

You guys kill me! I recently did the price guide for Thomas Johnson�s up and coming volume and I placed the value of an SS Honor Dagger with plain blade at $50,000 to $65,000. A Damascus blade example in the conditions of chips piece would easily go for $100,000. I know since I have sold them for that price. If you can find me some SS Honor Daggers with Damascus blades for $50,000 in this condition please send them all to me (up to 100 will be excepted) and receive a finders fee! Not many know that the Damascus blade was extra on the SA/SS Honor Dagger. If you didn't order the Damascus blade you got the plain blade. This can be verified by by viewing the original Eickhorn sales brochure which show the SA High Leader with plain blade on the front cover. The one Chip has is from the Barry Brown Collection. Barry used it as partial trade against the Sepp Dietrich Presentation Sword many years ago. This SS Honor Dagger is well known and many years ago was displayed at the Max Show, and not by Chip. I personally think he sold the dagger to cheap and told him so. By the way, The dagger has already been sold! Somebody got a good buy!!!!

Gailen David

If it was such a bargain you should of bought it.

Zorro: All I am saying is it was a good buy for a collector. Especially one who has the time to hold the dagger a few years. They are rarely offered for sale.

Gailen David

I agree with Gailen. A full Rohm SS in mint condition goes for 20K, and it's JUST an extra etch on the back of the blade. This is a beautiful, rare, desirable dagger. Unfortunately, not in my current budget! John

Here is a "no maker, plain blade" example.

Scabbard for same

OK Gailen, everyone here knows your "The Master" on this...So what was then "chips" dagger really worth? And did we help sell it here to a forum member?
-wagner-

Less than 8hrs.
The market has spoken.

Just to add a little wrench to the mix here. There does exist a DAMASCUS Honor with traces of the Roehm inscription removed from the back of the blade, so plain or damascus DID exist as an Honor Dagger form prior to Roehm's death in the dagger world.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I think it was worth $50,000 and gave him my opinion. Chips his own man and makes his own decisions. I know who bought it but had nothing to do with it's sale. Chip is well known and doesn't need me to sell his items. I don't know if the buyer is a memeber of this forum or not.

Gailen David

If I was going to lay out $40k I would go for the
SA High Leader w/ Damascus Blade and Chain. Just
my choice though, to each his own.

I know now that if I every see a plain blade honor dagger at a garage sale for $175.00.I will buy it.

Well, you just have to look at the rarity of the piece compared with the SA model. If you have enough money then why not have both. I'm happy for the seller and the buyer.

Gailen David

Personally I'd keep on saving until I had the money for a damascus bladed SS Honor rather than take the half price plain blade option, what is the point in taking a plain bladed high leader ? From an investment/future resale point I'd want to put my pot of gold into a 'sure fire' piece.

As JR has already pointed out, the piece appears to be equipped with a ground Rohm blade. Whilst I'm not saying this isn't an original put together, it's enough of an anomaly to make me stop and wonder..

I'm sure if I had all the money in the world, didn't need to consider future resale potential, and was looking for a full type set of SS Honor daggers then I'd accept the ground Rohm blade and buy it to complement the oakleaf and panelled scabbard versions and the chained piece, but sadly I'm not in that category.

Jonathan

ja ja die Damsast SS Honor daggers

I find it odd that none of the experts who. have held and have seen the dagger .Have not said if it is or is not a Rohm dagger and why it was not advertised, or in the reference books as such?.Daggers that need too be explained bother me.It is the buyer that needs to be happy with the purchase no matter what the experts say or do not say.If the the owner is happy with it,more power to him.Remember this, "All daggers are equal,but some are more equal than others"

Zorro: Please don't get to bothered since you didn't buy it. Not everything in this hobby can be or will be explained to your satisfaction. You have a very nice writing style and pick your words wisely. For that I commend you.

Gailen David

Is it a Rohm or not? Your the expert.

Factory Ground, Gailen ?

Zorro: It is a Rohm and I never said I'm an expert.

Gailen David

One possible explanation is the blade was an unissued one in inventory at Eickhorn. The inscription was ground off at the factory and used on the honor dagger. The Germans, as was most of the world, at that time were ultraconservative when it came to "making do." The economy in Germany was suffering terribly. I'm sure they had no concept of a "throw away" society. If such did occur, that would likely date the dagger to late 1934 to early 1935. Before a new barrage of posts saying I'm wrong comes in, I will note, again, this is speculation only, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

Yep.

Gailen

Thanks ,I was starting to feel like Pontius Pilate and thats not good.Go to the firearm and Luger forums.The guys there will be glad to tell you why the Germans would never use old parts.As I have been told many times "Why would they" Oh well,I guess it is all in what you want to believe.This has been a fun discussion.

I'll go a step further and say how do we know that the family didn't give his original blade from his issue SS dagger and have it fitted to his Honor Dagger before it was presented? The grip on this example has the correct coin silver eagle which was used on these SS Honor Daggers. Thats important to see. It was also used on the early SA Honor Daggers.

Gailen David

were honour daggers presented or did the have to be purchased by the recipient?

Presented, they could not be purchased.

Gailen David

Grumpy..that is an interesting theory,and i suppose anything is possible.It is just that Eickhorn was such a big concern and if they were in the business of supplying honour daggers to the Nazis ( one of their biggest clients..) i just can't see them nickle and diming on a blade when the whole point of an honour dagger is to honour someone with a quality presentation piece.

I think it is difficult, if not impossible, to place ourselves in the state of mind of the Germans in the early 1930's. Honestly, I believe there would have to be something very seriously wrong with a dagger or its components for it to be rejected or discarded. Look at even the earlier political daggers with offset eagles and grip buttons. Some have poorly etched or poorly centered mottos and trademarks. Some blade to crossguard and grip to crossguards fits are poor. These minor deficiencies can even been found on some "Himmler's" and "Rohm's." I agree you would think they would want an honor dagger to be near perfection, but we are viewing things from today's collector's perspective, after daggers have been scrutinized, compared and examined to the "nth" degree. Probably, during the period, few would notice or care if the reverse of a blade was a tiny bit wavy. The presentation and receipt of such a dagger would have been the central idea. There are, no doubt, other explanations as regards this particular dagger. No one will ever know its true history.

As collectors, we give the Germans way too much credit for how we feel they should have viewed and valued these daggers. To show you exactly how much stock the Germans put in the quality of their Damascus Honor Daggers, look at the grip eagle in the later SA Chain Honor Dagger. These eagles are the potmetal, grey, poor quality grip eagles used in the late war SAs. So don't tell me how the Germans would value their prized Honor Daggers. It just doesn't make sense to feel these were super quality or best only examples.
Also, look at the Feldherrnhalle Dagger. Not a product of war production nor from a period of material shortage, but still a poor quality dagger for a special unit and occassion item in my opinion.
Again, I don't think they valued the daggers as much as we do.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

given for free or paid for???

In my opinion things get a little desperate when you need to defend and explain a usd 40,000 dagger, this absolutely shouldn't be the case.

Jonathan

And it shouldn't matter if it sold in 8 hours for $40,000 or in 5 minutes for $100,000. And there are several collectors known to me on this forum who can write a check for it with no problem.
But they didn't and someone else did. Does that make it Right?! Is it all about the money?!
If someone pays it then it must be right?
In my opinion, is what I was told as a kid...""The money is in the blade". And for me, I don't want a ground Rohm regular blade on my $40,000 Honor Dagger. But the buyer did. And I'm glad he's happy. He's lucky he got a deal on a rare dagger and didn't have to pay $50,000.
-wagner-

I know from a very good source that a forum member did buy this dagger. Because that member is me.

I have purchased several rare and wonderful daggers from Chip and have been pleased as punch with them all. This is the single most expensive piece that I have purchased and it was quite a stretch for sure. I bought it based on Chip's reputation, on its provenance and on the recommendation of some very good people, also members of this forum.

I have not yet held it in my hands (and am not expert enough anyway to be able to determine what it is that I would be holding ;>)

But, I am proud to be able to tell you that it is mine.

John

Pleased for you.As long as you are happy thats what counts.Well done.
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Congratulations John.

Good for you John. There are a lot of jealous people in this hobby and sour grapes tend to be their only way of handling the fact that they can't participate in the higher end game.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

When you get into those stratospheric prices, it is definitively a "rich man" game and becomes a highly exclusive niche for only a handful of individuals.
What's really important is to be happy with what you have and with what you can afford...............that's all that counts.
That said, I congratulate John on a fine dagger that would likely be the highlight of any advanced collection.

Go, go, go Canada !

John, if you're happy with your new purchase then ultimately that is what matters, I still love mine to bits

Jonathan

Ron: You think that's what it is??? I hadn't, for the life of me, been able to figure it out.


Gailen

Jonathan: WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Gailen

CONGRATS JOHN POST SOME PICS OF THAT BEAUTY WHEN YOU GET IT IM NEW AT THIS, SO THE HONOR DAGEER DAMASCUS THING IS FASCINATING THANKS

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKkkEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE What a screamer Jonathan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jonathan, that's an amazing SS Honor dagger.
I'm definitively enviouuuuuuuuuuuuuuus.

Johnathan, Super! I just love this damascus stuff. When you get into it, it really grows on you. My Navy Shooting Prize is one of my favorites with the three line dedication is just stunning. All in all, they are some of the best TR collectibles in my opinion.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Guys, I am not a rich man. I have had to mortgage my first born son to be able to buy this dagger and I would never be able to mortgage him again (or the wife, for that matter) to be able to buy one as good as Jonathan's.

That being said, I am very happy and pleased with the feedback from all of you on the forum.

This is what the hobby is all about, IMHO. Support, feedback and learning.

John

Jonathan, I've been standing on my head to look at that blade since you posted the photo, so I turned it around...........

ha ha, i know my photography skills aren't quite there yet...will practice a little more when that sword i mentioned to you turns up

jonathan

quote:

As collectors, we give the Germans way too much credit for how we feel they should have viewed and valued these daggers. To show you exactly how much stock the Germans put in the quality of their Damascus Honor Daggers, look at the grip eagle in the later SA Chain Honor Dagger. These eagles are the potmetal, grey, poor quality grip eagles used in the late war SAs. So don't tell me how the Germans would value their prized Honor Daggers. It just doesn't make sense to feel these were super quality or best only examples.

Ron, did they have to use any recycled HJ blades on your Navy Shooting Prize Dagger ?? Sorry, I just had to toss tha one in. Perhaps you can post it in the Army Navy forum as no doubt it's a special dagger.

Congratulations John on your purchase of this rare SS dagger!
-wagner-

JONATHAN !!!! Well what can one say?

It is beautiful.
It is wonderful.
It is all and everything..

-wagner-

JR, best photos of my Naval Shooting Prize by Alcoso is in Wittmann's Navy Dagger Book. It was awarded for K98 rifle shooting. A nice 4 page spread with better shots than I can produce. I don't have the JR ability in photography. Wish I did.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Big Time Congratulations!
No jealousy here (well maybe a little of the good kind!)
It is an absolute beauty and a mega part of World History.

Mike

Here is a photo representation of the 4 SS Honor Daggers I have been blessed to own. This one, my first, was owned by Chip Gambino, and came from Barry Brown originally.

This second one was an indirect veteran purchase. Bought by a friend of mine and sold to me 24 hours later.

Here is the chained SS Honor that I purchased out of the woodwork directly from the grandson of the veteran.

Here is the 4th, which I also purchased directly out of the woodwork, from the guy who bought it at a gun show for pennies. This one was on this forum a while back, and you will probably remember when it popped up. As a result of the price I had to pay, I was unable to buy it for my own inventory, but in effect, bought it on behalf of a third party. But the experience was mine to cherish for a lifetime

I still have two SA Honors (one chained, and one unchained) but I have never been able to afford to keep one of the SS honors, due to the price I have had to pay. I've handled several other ones, including the excellent one that Gailen pulled out of the woodwork, as well as the one that Jonathan owns - quite a nice one. These are without a doubt the pinnacle of any dagger collector's collecting career to own one.

For more shots, please visit my "gallery" on my website. I'm always happy to answer questions about any of the advanced daggers, and I know where others are available for sale, if anybody has an itch they need to scratch

All I can say is "Roll on China"
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Whoa Baby............. bring on the Honors! BEAUTIFUL! I want one Craig!

Flags,swords,daggers and rings meant a lot to the Nazis.They touched their standards to the blood flag to consecrate it.Swore an oath of loyalty with their hand on the sword blade.Received their dagger at the Feldherrnhalle on Nov 9.Worthy SS men recieved rings inscribed with symbols of legend.I cannot believe that Eickhorn would take a blade that had been dishonored and make a honor dagger from it,still makes no sense.I know it is just a dagger blade. Who would know if the inscription is removed? It is more than that,much more.

why does it have to be sour grapes to ask questions?
if an honour dagger was given to a recipient were is the honour in using a ,for want of a better word , used blade? especially one with a removed engraving from a denounsed traiter .if the original owner bought this dagger i can see why he would use the blade out of his service 33 but if it was awarded i cannot see the issuer wanting to give such a dagger with a dround rohm blade
so were honour daggers given out for free or did you have to pay for the honour of receiving one?

One more thought: If the giver didn't consider it important to give a Damascus blade, then Eickhorn might have considered just taking a standard one from the stock shelf-and the Rohm blade reground was used on period M33s. So maybe this would have been a decision made by the factory men.

Dear Ron: Your wasting your time.

Gailen David

Yes, Gailen, you are right. Please note the last photo of Craig's beautiful daggers. The blade to crossguard fit is not perfect. Does that make it suspicious? I don't think so. I would think Eickhorn pulled whatever "Rohm" blades it had after the purge and ground the Rohm inscriptions off, then placed the blades into their normal blade bins or whatever they had to hold them. They probably didn't look nor did they care if the blades were ground Rohm's or otherwise. They were a commercial enterprise where the name of the game is to cut costs and make money.

Congratulations on a great purchase John. Will we see you at the party next weekend?

St�phane

Jonathan: I went back and looked at the picture of your SS Honor once again and man is it beautiful!!!!! SS Honor is the top of the food chain.

Gailen

Stephane:

Yes, I will be there. Unfortunately, the SS Honor will not.

John

Gailen: I agree. I've personally owned 4 of them, and have handled both yours, Johns, and a few others, and I have to say that without a doubt, John's is one of the finest ones I have seen. What I like about his is a) the pattern on the damascus, and b) the level of gilting on the piece. Truly a magnficient specimen.

Now let me understand this right.Every night the SS man who received an "Honor Dagger" took it out of the scabbard and gazed on it like we would like to imagine he did or did it get stored in his locker and when he had to wear it he cursed "the darn thing swinging around " maybe that's why they went to a service pistol

hello
do we know if these honour daggers were given as gifts or did they have to be bought??

The SS Honour dagger was adopted in 1936 for presentation to SS members who had been recognized for special achievements.
These were given and could not be sold.

Great informative thread.

Well done John / Jonathan , and i'm only envious in a nice way...

Mark

if they did not have to be paid for by the recipreint why would one have a plain blade? if i was the reciprient of an honour dagger i would expect mine to have a damascus blade. then when i saw mine had a plain blade ,a ground rohm at that, i would get worried and expect a knock at the door!

how about this
we all know that in the past several uk and us dealers went to soligen and bought lots of daggers parts .an honour dagger with a plain blade or a ground rohm blade was put together using these parts????
or after the war eickhorn seeing an interst in 3rd reich daggers put together daggers using parts they had in stock???
i do not believe himmler would have given out an honour dagger with a ground rohm blade
DO YOU??

Somewhere in a reference book there is a very clear period photo of an SA honor dagger with a plain blade. One might ask if there were such daggers for the SA, might there not be the same for the SS? However, the photo was probably faked postwar to ****er collectors into buying fake and parts honor daggers with plain blades. It's all a conspiracy! Perhaps the damascus blades were of earlier or later vintage. Some determination might be made by comparing the early and late crossguards with the types of blades they have. Perhaps, at one or more times, the supply of damascus blades was short and the demand for presenting honor daggers was high, therefore, the plain blades were placed on some. Honest-to-goodness "plain blade" honor daggers were made and presented. If any of you skeptics finds an honor dagger with just a plain ol' blade, I'm sure you'll pass on it, even if the price is right. Please post the information here, so members may take a chance and buy it.

Here's a photo from p. 65 of Angolia's "Daggers, Bayonets & Fighting Knives of Hitler's Germany" (1st Edition), clearly showing a "plain blade" example. The sidebar is interesting. He implies the honor daggers were authorized and the recipient of the award then purchased his own dagger. If this is so, it may explain the "ground Rohm" blade phenomenon. The owner may have simply used his old blade and had it attached to the honor dagger fittings. I suspect this information is dated and, perhaps, incomplete or inaccurate, in light of information developed since publication of the book (1971).

Here is page 102 from "Third Reich Dagger Reproductions" by Bowman (1993). Note it is a photo of an original "Eickhorn" catalog page (1937). Note also the "plain blade" on this SA honor dagger.

Hay Nick! The SS Honor dagger we are refering to has all matching numbers. This means the crossguards and even the grip have the same stamping. What are the odds on finding those parts? Oh! And then we have to come up with a scabbrd. We know the for a fact that the SA High Leader Dagger is found with a plain blade, so why not the SS Honor. I am so sick and tired of listening to no nothing people on this forum. Dave, Do me a favor and throw me off this damn forum for saying this. You'll be doing me a favor!!!!!

Gailen

Grumpy: I am also awarding you the order of "The Golden Badge of the Hairy Oak Leaves
for Persistence." You have shown true courage in the face of ignorance. I am so very proud to have known you.......somebody shoot me!!!

Gailen David

Grumpy,You might want to get a COA for that "Golden Badge of the Hairy Oak Leaves for Presistence"In case some no-nothings have the audacity to have any doubts about it.

You know, guys, I have absolutely no qualms about this dagger at all. It is pictured in two different reference books (by THE TWO TOMS), it comes from Chip Gambino, a man whose reputation and integrity are unquestioned, and has been vouched for by more than one honorable and expert collector.

I made the right decision to sell my first born son to be able to buy this dagger and stand by it.

The fact that it is a plain bladed dagger only means that it costs half of what a Damascus dagger would. And I run out of kids to mortgage very quickly (this is a joke for you serious types out there).

And I am thinking about possibly bringing this with me to the SOS so that those of you who are doubters and those of you who are believers can see for yourselves what this is all about. For sure, I will be showing it off to a few friends of mine in Canada once it arrives here safely (hear that Paul, Patrice and Stephane?)

It is incredible to me to have seen the formal, on this site, and the informal, via PM and via separate e-mail, support that I have received from the best and the classiest people on this forum. Thank you all and I only wish that, at some future time, I can give you back the encouragement and support that I have received.

John

This is my "Silver Honor Ring of the Hairy Oak Leaves for Persistence" A lot of people think it is not original because it has no hair,but those of us with high school educations know that after 70 years they go bald.It's in all the books.The SA had one with a beard.To the tune of "To a Smoker it's a Kent" To a Nazi it's a chained SS,To a Biker it's a leather vest'To a T** man it's a great big chest,To a Dagger it's the blade.ForumA MEDIUM OF OPEN DISCUSSION.)John if your happy with it so am I.If you want to talk about it just let me know.Over and out.(X

John

Good for you John!

You have been adding many great daggers
for sure!

Bet its outstanding!

PVON

Hey

Nice dagger and cheaper than a 911 turbo which looses money right after you leave the showroom...NICE Piece.

Personnally, I think it's a good buy.

Zorro: There ia picture of "The Golden Order of the Hairy Oak Leaves for Persistence" on the front cover of the May, 1941 German publication "Kinderbrain."

Gailen

It's not so much as the plain blade.It is the fact that it is a Rohm and never presented as such,odd.Would not the swordsmiths be able to put a polish and crossgrain without any indication it was a used blade.Would not Eickorn use a used blade on a EM instead of their top of the line product.SA highleader dagger had the squirrel over the shoulder trademark on some,but not on the SS Honor.Where is the factory catalog with a plain blade SS dagger. The handle has matching numbers so what .its the blade.People act like any kind of dagger could be bought at Val-Mart.Would Himmler give out not-so special daggers to some?Also now all fully factory ground Rohms are no longer valid,because they may have been made that way from the get go and were never owned by a SS man with the dedication. Does the price of the relic reflect on if it is original.Is the guy who bought the 1936 Chained honor at a gun show not one of the "BIG TIME" players because he only paid $575.00. for it.I am glad some of the forum members agree with me that the dagger is odd.May be right as rain, but odd.

Hasn't all this been said before???????????????

Gailen David

Some of it not all of it.You have a vested interest in the dagger You cannot be objective.Why must you alway resort to insulting members who do not see things your way?Not only this thread but many others.

You finally screwed up Zorro. I have never had a vested interest in this dagger. I never owned it, sold it, and never had any interest financially in it when it was bought or sold. Did I cover everything? You must have gotten that information from the same book you own on Honor Daggers. It took a while for you to finally show your real face. I think it's time for Mr. Zorro to ride his horse underneath the waterfall and into the Zorro Cave.

Gailen

In fact I was asked by an outside party if I would authenticate the dagger and said no. The reason is that I am a friend of the seller and felt it was not ethical for to do so.

Gailen David

Hello! Zorro you there?

Gailen David

Gailen did you get the paypal yet?

Roy: Sure did. Thank you.

Gailen David

John and Jonathan- sweet daggers.

One that a member sent me photos of.

Very similar to mine, JR (photos posted above).

What a difference a day makes.

Silence is golden.

BTW:
In case anyone hasn't figured it out the plain bladed dagger that is pictured above by JR* is a fake. I put it together in about 10 minutes using a legit. blade but the rest of the parts are from a high end Honor dagger copy I own.
I did this to illustrate a point in just how easy it is to fake something. Threads get contentious at times but IMO it is proper and necessary to question any item in this hobby.
I posted pics. of a cased medal in another thread that I had some qualms about. Two members told me what they thought was wrong with it and it's going back. The problem was so minor I probably would never have caught it myself.
Jim
*I asked JR to post this because if I had done so many would have recognized the Honor Dagger copy as mine.

I hear that JR had turned down offers on that dagger in the $25,000 to $38,000 !
-wagner-

Hi everyone. Just a few comments on this thread. First, JOHNZ, You spent a lot of money on this dagger and so I hope you take great pleasure in it. As stated already on this thread there are those who would not take this blade because it has a ground rohm blade on an honor dagger. I don't know that it would be any different if it was an original non rohm plain blade either. Everyone should take note that the full honor daggers happen to have the CHEAPEST damascus blade that could possibly be had in the third reich. No. 880 plain maiden hair that sold for 6.00 RM. So truthfully the blade on these daggers is not so special really. The small rose pattern would have cost 27.00 RM and the four band turkish damast cost 90.00 RM!!! So Himmler was only just so honorable with his honor daggers. That is why ,I guess the birthday four band damast swords are so prized because of the workmanship in the blade but most importantly THEY ARE ATTRIBUTED TO A FAMOUS OR INFAMOUS PERSON. In the end most all of these honor dagger blades are unattributed and always will be unfortunately. So maybe JOHNZ didn't do to badely with his dagger. The only question will always come up at the time of sale not of purchase. Hopefully it will hold value or go up, there is a general rule that when someone can spend 40 to 60 thousand on something they often can spend 100,000 and therefore will choose a full bladed honor dagger if they wnat one at all. You never know where that break point is and I hope that JOHNZ is under that point as,I think Gailen believes, he is. Time will tell. David

quote:

Originally posted by violin: Everyone should take note that the full honor daggers happen to have the CHEAPEST damascus blade that could possibly be had in the third reich. No. 880 plain maiden hair that sold for 6.00 RM. So truthfully the blade on these daggers is not so special really. David

That's something that I didn't know about.
I always thought that the SS Honour Damascus blades ( and the SA Honour blades for that matter ) were the most expensive damascus available at the time.
Didn't know that they were the cheapest of all damascus.
In any case, the value and desirability mainly holds in its rarity and great looks.

Hi Pat. The numbers I posted were for army daggers in the 1939 Eickhorn Kundenienst as originally posted by Tony in June 03 on this forum. One can extrapolate to any dagger type I would assume as to relative cost from one type of damascus technique to the other. Maidenhair was therefore the most common type seen because it was the cheapest. Tony originally stated that 20 RM would, in that day, cover the average family living expenses for a week. So you can see why four band damast was very rare and is prized today. That is why I have always had a hard time wanting to pay 100,000 for a "plain' blade so to speak. Don't get me wrong I would love to have one just like everyone else would but I am just waiting for mine at the next gun show.

I looked for the price of a Damascus blade in the 1938 Eickhorn catalog, but was unable to find it. 6.00 Reichsmarks just doesn't seem right to me for the price of a one of these blades. Even an ivory grip for an Army dagger was more than this, and considering that to make a true Damascus blade took up to 40 hours to accomplish, how could it sell so cheaply ? I certainly would like to hear some other discussion on this particular topic.

Page 251 of Wittmann's Army book gives pricing from the 1939 circa Eickhorn Kundendienst. True Damascus Steel Blade No.880 Plain Maidenhair is shown as 6.00 RM, and range through to 90.00 RM for No.425 Turkish pattern through and through.

Regards

Russell

There is 10X the amount of material in an SA/SS blade then the toothpick Army blade.

Some of the posts on this thread makes me wonder if I joined this forum to learn more about my favorite hobby or read mean.. posts. The last time checked no one man or woman knows everything. Sometimes the only way to learn is to ask questions. After many years of collecting, I do not know everything and am always willing to learn. Just a new(no nothing) members opinion.

Yep! I'd like a mansion for a price of a shack.
-wags-

Congrats to JohnZ and Jonathan - a priviledge to see such fine daggers!!

Regards

Russell

I certainly hope no one thought my posts were mean but the exact opposite. I was trying to suggest that JOHNZ should feel good about his dagger because I think there is WAY to much stock placed in maidenhair blades. Of course there are nice and great to have and I for one would love to have one but from Pat's comments there may be a misconception about damast blades and what was top and what was less. By the way JR your point is well taken and it may very well be that a political blade may be more expensive because of more work and/or more material. BUT, it should be relative as I said in my first post as to maidenhair vs. Four band with the four band being just that much more expensive in a political dagger. Those honor dagger cross guards are vastly more rare than maiden hair pattern blades throughout the third reich. David

By the way I use to own a small roses navy damascus dagger that was so beautiful you could look at it for ever. There are very few of them from the third reich period and it was maid by Paul Dinger. There was no comparing maiden hair to that blade!!! I honestly have no idea how one could forge it. So the price difference is very likely correct as well as the degree of difficulty in making one. David

Ok, Ok, made not maid. I need to proof read my posts better.

Here is a closeup of a set of medium quality damascus steel shotgun barrels circa 1910. These would have been used on a double barrel shotgun in the $30 range*. Shot gun barrels are infinitely more difficult and time consuming to create that a dagger blade. There are four pieces to each set. the left and right barrels plus the top and bottom rib's. The basic process was to take bundles of alternating steel and iron strips that were twisted together and then hammer welded around a mandrel. The mandrel was then bored out leaving a tube. The tubes then had to be trued up, regulated so both barrels would shoot to the same point; usually 40 yards, then soldered together with the top and bottom ribs. Finally they had to be polished and finished.
*Keep in mind this would have been the retail cost of the whole gun and not just the barrels.
Jim

The art of making true Damascus went up in smoke with the Library of Alexandria.

Very interesting reading Violin, thanks.

I agree with Jim M that everything is and should be open to scrutiny - but not ridicule. Let's keep in mind, also, a thousand photos are not worth one "hands on" examination. Most photos do not come close to telling the true story and that can be in the "plus" or "minus" column. Honest and objective disagreement is healthy, but an attitude of "I'm right and everybody else is wrong" without proof or foundation is unhealthy. Arguing for argument's sake alone proves nothing and contributes nothing. There are people in this hobby who know more about it than I ever will. Their opinions should carry much weight and credibility. Even they, however, can and do make mistakes, but that is seldom the case. As has been said many times before, each item must stand on its own. Does it generally conform to the norm? If not, what are the differences and is there a reasonable explanation as to why they exist? You can accept or reject the "non-textbook" examples of anything. You may be saving yourself a lot of grief by rejecting them or obtaining a rare "jewel" in obtaining something that doesn't quite conform to the norm. There are fake honor daggers with both types of blades and there are real ones with both types of blades. As stated above, each example must stand on its own.

As Grumpy stated above no one should take umbrage IMO if an item they post is questioned.
After 50+ years of fakery in this hobby an item has to be judged by its own merits and the best criteria and information we have today and certain items will still remain "questionable" in many minds. I have asked this before and to paraphrase a song "Where have all the Atwoods Gone?" I think its a fair question. Surely post war daggers reputedly produced in the thousands didn't just vanish into thin air. I suspect that with 40 years of natural aging they are lying in collection perhaps undetected today. I know for a fact that one notable collector got a suprise awhile back when showing his collection to a real veteran dealer. Apparentely 2 of the SS dagggers in his collection were Atwoods.
Going back to my assembled dagger above. It would take only a short while to finish up the fitting professionally on this dagger to make it essentially undectible to the vast majority of the collecting community. Most of the parts except the blade appear to be period left over stock. I am sure this would present a real opportunity to sell this as legit. by someone with a lack of ethics.
Even though my name is Jim I'll remain a "Doubting Thomas" as long as I collect.
Jim

Jim makes good sense. When JR posted the photo of his "put together" dagger, I gave it a quick glance without taking note of the details. I assumed it was real since JR posted it and it fell in line with the topic of discussion. After Jim disclosed what the dagger is, I scrutinized it and could see the areas that flag it as a partly reproduction piece. It is convincing at first glance and would fool many a buyer who is not familiar with honor daggers. As most of us know, there are relatively inexperienced collectors with lots of money who may well jump at a chance to buy an "honor dagger," especially if the price is attractive. Backed up by a seller with a smooth spiel and a "guarantee of authenticity," the buyer would be easy prey. The same could apply to any dagger, even the more common ones. But the big bucks for the unscrupulous are in the rarer varieties. Although bargains may be found at shows, on the internet, etc., the risk of being "taken" is much greater than buying from a reputable dealer or collector. Knowledge is power, as they say, and, if you do not have sufficient knowledge, go to someone who does before laying down your money.

Absolutely fantastic daggers you guys are showing here!! I am envious in a positive way
Maybe one day a second mortgage may finance one of these beauties, with or without a damascus blade.

Thanks for sharing!!!

Cheers,

Just a little follow up on damascus blades and smiths. By the time of the third reich there were only three or four smiths still active in the forging of damascus blades. Original records are quite scarce on these facts. However at least three of them were Paul Muller, Carl Wester, and Paul Dinger. I cannot find my reference to the other one but someone else may know more than me. Everyone thinks that Paul Muller was a Solingen smith but in fact his smithy was in Cronenberg before Dachau. Other than the Japanese swords, these blades, regardless of the type of damascus forging are the most beautiful ever made in my novice and humble opinion. David

Hi there,

I am late arriving in this thread, having been deployed elsewhere dodging flak.

Skyline Drive, I have tried the web address that you show, but cannot see any image - perhaps the seller has pulled the images now that the piece has sold? Did any one download them for their own records, in which case can they be seen?

JohnZ, congratulations on your success at obtaining the dagger. Is it possible that you could take a selection of photographs of the piece (including details showing it in dismantled form)? I would really like to see, and know, more about this dagger.

Although there is probably no doubt that "Honour Daggers" such as these were presented to the recipient (and with some great ceremony, at local level). It is my opinion, however, that in the majority of cases the recipient was awarded only the "Right to bear the Honour Dagger" - and he would be given a certificate to prove that he had the authority to carry such an item. Actual possession of the item was something that he had to pay for, and in terms of the existing economy, such items would not be cheap - and the majority of people were not that wealthy.

I do not doubt that for some SA or SS men being granted this Honour, then their friends, associates of fellow members of their Sturm might subscribe together to purchase the dagger, and if there was enough money left over then they might well have contributed towards a damascus blade as well.

The actual purchase of the item could not be done direct with the factory. According to my Eickhorn Kundendienst (1938 edition) direct sale of the item to the individual was forbidden, and that applications for the dagger had to be made through the RZM.

The actual conditions which would merit the award of the right to carry the Ehrendolch remain a bit of a mystery - so if anyone has any information in this area, I would be pleased if they would care to share it with us.

Hope we see some photos!

FJS

Fred,

Tell us why you think that "in the majority of cases the recipient was awarded only the "Right to bear the Honour Dagger" - and he would be given a certificate to prove that he had the authority to carry such an item."

Dave

would that explain the use of a ground rohm blade in a honour dagger cost perhaps it was a cheaper option?

Ground Roehm Dagges left in Eickhorn stock were not termed "Ground Roehm Blades" and were put into the inventory as any other SS mottoed dagger blade. Sold as new old stock and even marked with the RZM code and dated (see Wittmann's and others reference books showing these-I told Wittmann about these very early on when no one else knew what these were and I have found more than one directly from the veteran's hand in motel buys).
So quit using this as an available option for someone getting an SS Dagger (these could NOT be purchased on an individual basis by SS men).
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Dave,

I will give you two parallel instances which I think support my belief.

Firstly; recipients of the Blood Order were given a special booklet (a bit like a Fuhrerschein) which they were supposed to carry, and which confirmed that they were the acknowledged recipient of the award that they displayed. Therefore, at any time, they could be required to prove entitlement to the bearing of such an award.

Secondly; Authentic Luftwaffe Generalsdegens with the Goring inscription seem to exist only in examples manufactured by Eickhorn - and then only in the form of the later (post-1937) white grip and not the wire-wrapped grip.

The comparable WKC Luft Degen, remains in their catalogues shown with a plain (or partially etched) blade.

I respectfully submit that the right to bear the Goring dedication was a "bestowal in word and recognition" - and that if the recipient wanted to show this recognition on his sword, then he had to purchase one from Eickhorn (Pattern 1732, Price 39.50 Reichsmarks).

I hope that this offers some enlightenment to your question

Best regards

FJS

P.S. I would not be ungrateful to receive a reply the the private e-mails that I have sent to you.

There is a pic in Wittmann's book of an SS Rohm dagger and the certificate awarding the Ehrendolch to the SS man. Would this be the "right to bear" document?

First I need to say that there is a bit of a problem with terminology.

Erich - When Rohm gave away a bit more than an eighth of a million daggers with his name etched on the back he called them "Ehrendolch" and gave out, at least to SS recipients, a certificate of entitlement called an Urkunde (sp?). One of these rare documents is what is in TW's book. Today thse are mostly called Rohm daggers or Rohm Inscription or Rohm Dedication daggers

What the collecting hobby has come to call a real "Honor Dagger" is well defined as being made by Eickhorn and having crossguards of a consistent pattern, a leather covered scabbard, two unique types of scabbard fittings and a Damascus steel blade ...except one or two unexplained ones with plain blades. They are found both as "M1933" and chained daggers. Enough have are around today to prove that they were made in small quantities and were not one-off examples.

There exist many other presented daggers, some with Damascus blades or sculpted crossguards or leather covered scabbards. They are sometimes called "Honor Daggers". No two are identical.

Fred,

If you are talking about the Rohm daggers, I don't agree that all the bloke got was a certificate.

If you are talking about the Eickhorn Honor Daggers, what applied to Blood Orders or Luftwaffe GO swords is neither here nor there as far as whatthe SS or SA might have done. If you have proof, lets see it.

Dave

Dave,

I may not have expressed myself clearly in my previous submission, so I will see if I can simplify this.

Yes, I agree with you completely, the recipients of the Rohm daggers received the daggers with the inscriptions. I don�t think that they had to carry any pass or permit to bear the dagger - I think that the conditions determining eligibility for the award were established as:
i) For SA Men, continuous Membership of the SA from any time prior to 31 December, 1931 through to February, 1934;
ii) Similarly, the same conditions as above for the SS Members, or those who had transferred directly from the SA to the SS and who had maintained a continuous membership of one or the other organisations, from prior to 31 December, 1931 through to the date of the awards.
iii) The same conditions of acceptance were available to members of the HJ who had maintained a continuous membership from a date prior to 31 December, 1931, and who had transferred directly into the SA (or SS) in the period up to February, 1934.

All the above conditions are well known, I would think that the proof of eligibility would be shown in their membership cards, and the proof of weekly/monthly subscriptions paid and subsequent renewal of membership cards.

One factor which is certain, the majority of the membership would have to finance the purchase of their own daggers, and I suspect that would include those eligible for the Rohm dedication. Whether or not they would have to pay any �extra� for this etched �Honour�, I do not know. The same question arises for those who had already obtained their daggers, and were obliged to return them to have the dedication applied - although I would not be surprised if it turned out that some �handling charge� had been levied.

Concerning the �Second pattern Honour Dagger�, which I believe probably did not come into existence until after the demise of Rohm, then I suspect that there might have been a much more rigorous set of conditions to be fulfilled, before an SA or SS member became eligible for the Honour Dagger. As the SA and SS had become two totally separate organisations at this time, it is not impossible that some slightly different criteria may have been applicable between the two organisations regarding eligibility for the respective dagger.

I have noted in an SA Membership book references to the former owner which highlighted whether or not the owner possessed the SA Sports Badge (tick, in the box), or the Dienstdolch (Service Dagger) (again, tick the box). Yet it remains interesting (and perplexing) that the SA Membership book I have seen makes no reference to the possibility of carrying the Honour Dagger. (I don�t know about the SS Membership book, as I haven�t examined one).

Curiously enough, there seems to be no reference the SA (or SS) Honour Dagger in the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP, although reference to the standard Service Dagger is presented.

So the point I was actually getting to is this: The Honour Dagger in the form which we recognise it (oak leaf crossguard, panelled scabbard fittings, etc) is clearly an identifiable item, and would have been obvious when worn on the uniform.

As an Honour piece, it presumably added a status to the bearer, and may have afforded certain privileges.

Do we have any information concerning what criteria needed to be fulfilled, to allow a member the right to wear the Ehrendolch?

Did the bearer of the Honour Dagger have to carry any documentation to show that he was entitled to wear the dagger - and if so, what form was this documentation?

My reference to the booklet which was carried when wearing the Blood Order was merely an analogy - a recognisable Party decoration was being worn, the entitlement to wear it was proven by the pass book. I suspect that some similar �proof� was applicable to bearers of the Honour Dagger, although what form it would take can only be guessed at. It might have simply been a rubber stamp and signature in the SA Membership book?

So, Dave, this is why I asked the question. Any idea concerning this?

FJS

In reference to HONOR DAGGER wear, years ago I had many conversations with Ernst Muzatko (author of "COLD STEEL" and well known Austrian historian who unfortunately was killed a few years ago under questionable circumstances) and in his study he felt that Honor Daggers were distributed MAINLY by rank in the SA. If you study pictures of the period and examine those wearing honor daggers in the SA, they were usually Gruppenfuhrers or Obergruppenfuhrers only.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Yoy guys really know alot!

Love
Gailen

There goes my long time belief in the German Tooth Fairy.

Gailen

You mean this guy?

Geez Andy:
I get the pretzels and beer Ok but I'm not sure to what use you'd put to the one top center?? Well it's got strapping so maybe as a portepee!!!
Jim

Ron,

Interesting point, I too wondered if the Honour Dagger could be rank related, as I don�t believe I have seen an image of a bearer of one of these below the rank of Gruppenfuhrer. However, in my own mind I feel certain that the dagger must have some official status - and therefore, somewhere, there will be some explanation of the criteria to be met to be eligible for this dagger; and also some definition to explain who, or at what level, is entitled to wear the Chained SA Honour Dagger.

I know that the common perception is to regard it as an SA High Leader Dagger (with chains), but I have yet to see what constitutes the precise level (and above) to be regarded as �High Leader�.

There has to be a recognisable point to confirm this change in status. I appreciate that to many people my interest in these small details might be regarded as �pedantic�, but the truth is that we know so little about these pieces that we are prone to rely upon guesswork regarding them. So I think that is worth challenging guesses, to see if we can get to the root of a real answer. There must be some verifiable information out there.

Has anybody located images of the original dagger which started this thread?

FJS

quote:

Has anybody located images of the original dagger which started this thread?

OH OH .................

I think the term "high leader" is something that the people in the hobby invented.

What is being said about these daggers could also be said about the Damascus bladed swords signed with Himmler's. If my memory is correct, roughly the same number, about 15 ?, of those swords and SS Honor Daggers have turned up.

It cannot have been solely rank: By 1937, there were 16 SS Obergruppenfuhrers and 40 Gruppenfuhrers, and the numbers grew each year. Even within the elite, there was probably a selection process. Me ? I think it more a "who you know" or brown-nose thing than any defined process.

I hope you find a paper trail proof, Fred, of how it worked.

I agree with Dave and I think they were presented. Do you think Heinie might have got those free from Eickhorn? Do you think they would dare to try to charge the RFSS? If so, I think the SS might have had some funds that they may have liberated from some unfortunates-HMMMMM??
Perhaps the plain blades were for the lesser or marginal deserving individuals. It's kind of like patting you on the back while kicking you in the ---. I think Heinie would have liked doing that. Can you see the slight gleam in his eye?
Also Fred-I have seen a couple of 33 type oval TM Eickhorn Luft General's degens. Are you saying those are fake? --Please clarify this.

Dave�s idea of �Friends of Heinrich Himmler� works for me. If you look at the list of known gifts from Himmler some went to individuals who were given SS rank, but were involved in something other than direct �SS� activities and were more political in nature.

As far as �freebies" from Eickhorn is concerned that is a possibility. Although the RZM had considerable influence with later M1933 daggers which were made to more or less to its standards and price controls. And any extraordinary economic benefit to Eickhorn would have to have come from unbranded M1936 production.

Also interesting I think is information that was developed by Joe Wotka. In 1938 (and earlier) the company that had the inside track for SS approved sword blades was Krebs. And it was an appeal from Pack filed with the Reich Equalization office for Public Contracts that ultimately allowed other makers to compete. And there was �pay back� from the RFSS - with Pack also being virtually excluded with other items they formerly made.

So obviously Himmler was not above playing favorites when it came to items made for the SS. And extorting concessions from Eickhorn cannot be discounted out of hand. If they did or not I think is an unknown at moment - but is something that could be looked at in parallel with the timeline for the daggers. FP

Dave,

It is a very speculative area, and whereas I agree that it is very probable that the term �High Leader� might have been coined by collecting fraternity, it is not impossible that it also might be a potentially correct definition - at least in part of the instances.

Although this thread started with an �SS Honour Dagger�, which was authorised with the same conditions for both the SA and SS (in the Rohm period), I am of the opinion that new rules and conditions which would probably have been applied after the removal of Rohm (1934/35), and that they might well have been tightened up - or even expanded. I will treat this part of the discourse as apertaining to SS Honour Daggers only. For example, it seems unlikely that the condition of receipt of the new Honour Dagger has anything to do with the length of continuous service - because if that was so then we would be right back to the 9,900 SS men (and officers) who received the Rohm Dagger - and there are still quite a lot of these rarities to be seen. So why do we not see the second Model Honour Dagger with the same frequency (or even more so) because it lasted for a longer period than the original Rohm presentation?

As an aside to this, I would like to state that my personal belief is that considerably more than 9,900 SS Rohm Honour Daggers were awarded. The original figure was based on the assessment as of February 1934, and I rather suspect that Rohm might have �honoured� even more SS members (I would love to see the specimen he personally awarded to Himmler!) right up until the time of the Rohm putsch.

If you concur with the above, then it would seem probable that the original awards of the Rohm dedication to SA members (around 128,000 as of February, 1934) may well have increased substantially in the following four months - maybe even to twice the original estimate?

Returning to the subject of the second type Honour Dagger, I must state that I am amazed at the paucity of original documentation relating to it. I appreciate that Dave has suggested that �cronyism� may well have had some part in the offering of these items - I am sure that such �favours� occurred. Similarly, Ron W relates an account from a contact which suggests that these items were �rank related� - well I do not believe that to be the exclusive answer, but it might well be partially true - because here is another aspect to consider:-

In any militaristic organisation which has a full time paid staff, there is a regular percentage of change-over of full time members, either due to career shift, infirmity or retirement, or transfer to the reservists. I think on average this percentage runs at 12-15%. It is not improbable, that some percentage of full-time paid personnel - on the eve of retirement - were promoted up a rank level, and if applicable given the new rank status pension, and the right to an Honour Dagger to match their new status.

I do not claim this to be the absolute answer, but I think it is a possibility which deserves consideration among the rest of the considered observations.

Houston; regarding the Luft Generals Degen, I mentioned this only in the concept that recipients of the Goring dedication still had to pay for their swords. Regarding your reference to the Luft General Degens which have the small Eickhorn oval TM - are you relating to the pieces which also have the dedication displaying the �Luftfahrt� inscription, and not the later �Oberbefehlschaber der Luftwaffe� dedication? So the answer to your question is NO, I am not stating that these are fake. Maybe you misread me, or I didn�t express myself clearly, but so far I believe that most of these pieces are real.

FJS

Thanks Fred. I'm glad that is now clear.-The 33 TM types with the early inscription are authentic.

Fred,

If you ever dig up proof of any of your "possibilities", let us know.

Dave

Simply stated, the SA/SS Honour dagger was originally awarded for length of service. At what time did it become the extraordinarily rare oak leaf cross-guarded and leather-scabbarded dagger?
Frederick Stephens asks if, like the SA, the award of an Ehrendolch was indicated by a simple box with a tick in it on an SS member's file. The answer is yes.
I know the collector world has now come to refer to these ornate blades as Honour Daggers but I don't think any official SS documents have come to light that would support this nomenclature.
Derek

Derek,

There is NO support at all in period documents for the nomenclature we use on these fancy daggers that I have ever seen. I hoped I had made that clear.

The original Rohm dedication daggers were called "Ehrendolch" in the document that the SS guys got. The seniority/service needed to get one of those is known from period documents, as is the number issued. That (Ehrendolch)was the terminology at the time.

The fancier daggers came out sometime after Rohm was killed but no one has turned up any period documentation saying what they were officially called, how many were awarded, or what the criteria was.The SS ones are usually called Honor Daggers and the SA ones often called High Leader Daggers, but that is a name hung on them by collectors, not the Germans.


Dave

Not quite correct. Sorry , but the 35-41 Eickhorn catalog clearly shows the M33 "Fancy" one -without Damast blade with the title--Ehrendolch der SA or Honor Dagger of the SA.
IMO the later chained model and both models of the SS version would be the same.
IMO there is no doubt that this is the correct name for these daggers even though it would seem that only those of higher rank wore them.

Houston,
Is it possible for you to post the page you mention?
Derek

By the way, Houston,

I forgot to state that regarding those early Eickhorn TM marked Luftwaffegeneralsdegens, the trademark (in my humble opinion) should be STAMPED and not "etched".

FJS

This should be the most interesting MAX of all times. I can see it now roving bands with torches in hand searching the show for NSKK Honors. How fitting, with Halloween only weeks away. I'll bring the marshmallows.

Gailen

Yeah Gailen , find me one !!!

Preview scene from a video shot of the anticipated Great Dagger Debate at the 2007 MAX:

Love it!


Gailen

Here is the photo from the Eickhorn Catalog

2

On the next page the catalog states the Honor Dagger is for the Hohere Fuhrer--which I believe means --High Leader. So--this seems to be the answer--it was there all the time. Honor Dagger for High Leaders.

Thank you Houston for posting that page. It certainly clarifies things for me. I must search some RFSS gift lists and see if the term Hohere Fuehrer Ehrendolch pops up there.
The simple term Honour Dagger is referred to in SS documents almost generically and I am sure it describes the Himmler inscription dagger that replaced the Roehm one.
Do the SS listings below show anything interesting in terms of descriptions?
Derek

No--Nothing special about the SS dagger here. This also seems to indicate of course that the requirement for at least this Honor Dagger was not the same as the Rohms or Himmlers. Not time in service but high rank.

Having located my own copy of the "Eickhorn Kundendienst", I must confirm that the reference to the Honour Dagger, and the presumed recipient, is clearly stated as a "Higher Leader". So I think I must now concur with Houston, and Ron W, that the award does seem to be rank related.

Thus said, it still remains to find out just how the application of the "Honour Dagger", and the "Higher Leader status" was defined. And yet there is another issue - that of the chained "Honour Dagger" - is this an even "higher rank" status?

I ought to add, that the reference in the Eickhorn Catalogue relates only to the SA Honour Dagger, and the "Model 1934" version (without chains) at that. It says nothing of the SS and NSKK Honour Daggers. In fact, it is worth commenting, that the "Kundendienst" makes no other mention of either the Model 1936 SS Dagger with chains; or even the NSKK with chains ("mit kette"). It might be that these two organisations had some different, or vartiant, conditions for the award. So I do think that there is much more to be learned about these items, and the conditions governing their issue.

Beyond the above observations, there is also the mystery of the "1941" pattern Honour Daggers, with the ornated, oak leaf scabbard fittings instead of the panelled fittings. This, surely not, cannot be a modification at the whim of the manufacturer? There must be some formal record and source that proscribed these changes to the Honour Dagger?

If any one has further information, then please publish it - we are keen to know.

FJS

It is interesting to note, and it has been touched upon elsewhere on the forum, that the blade depicted in the "Eickhorn" catalog (above) is the "plain" (non-damascus) variety. If I'm not mistaken, the catalog is from 1937. It makes one wonder if the "plain" blade was the "standard" one for this dagger and the damascus blade was an added option for a very special recipient. Since there seem to be more daggers with the damascus blade that have survived, it would seem such an explanation is implausible. It does, however, raise the question as to why both blades are found on honor daggers. Could it have been there came a time when damascus was too time-consuming and expensive to produce? It would seem the damascus blades were a "luxury" of sorts that may have become in short supply or other priorities may have lowered or done away with its importance. Perhaps, too, the "plain" blades are of later manufacture, but scabbard fittings and other factors do not point to such. Perhaps the manufacture and supply of damascus was intermittent at some point.

It is also interesting to note that the plain blade shown in the catalog is not even an "honor type" in that it does not have the oak leaves at either end of the motto. This would have been a simple addition but they did not do it.
Also--the 33 type was made for quite a long time and some have the later 35-41 TM. Lots more to learn about these daggers.

Some notes on damascus blade "Honor Daggers": since we can assume that SA leaders with rank were either given or issued these daggers, I am sure that they knew in advance of the presentation or issue that they were going to get the dagger. Also, if you look at who was a Gruppenfuhrer or Obergruppenfuhrer, you will see that they either had been well up in rank in the military from WWI or had been titled "von" or prince and came from money. With this being seen, I am sure they would have ordered or requested to have a damascus blade and would have paid the money or had it given to them. This it the reason you don't see a plain blade too often in an honor dagger. As they say rank has its privileges.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Houston, You should have known that I wouldn't let this one slip through. Sorry Sir, I couldn't resist.

Here's the catalog: Eickhorn Diplo.............. show me the dagger...............

And there are more example of edged weapons shown but in fact never manufactured.

ED2

The catalog assists us, but a hands on examination usually can't fool us.

I'll pay the overnight freight & insurance both ways to examine Grumpy's dagger, and photograph the results for the members to see here on the forum.

JR--I guess you are saying the catalogs are not always right? Right--but not always wrong and right most of the time I would say. I don't think the catalog is wrong about the SA Honor Daggers --do you?

I believe that Witty did get his Buckner SA Honor right out of the weeds and even has a period photo of Buckner with the dagger and the HJ hangers that came with it. I'm not aware of an SS Honor plain blade with this kind of providence.

I am though, JR. The one Jack Angolia shows in his book came out of the woodwork many years ago and was in his collection for many many years-and never for sale. I know because a friend and I tried to buy it back in the very early 60's when he had it on display.
It later was sold to Bob Waitts and Brian Maederer after the attempted robbery at Jack's home when he sold out most of his collection.
In addition, back in the old days, in the collection of mega advanced dagger collector Robert Moses was a pristine 33 type SA Honor Dagger w/ plain blade with a tag and W/ the 35-41 TM. This dagger was MINT with all the background burnish in the cross guards and all the original lacquer. It may have been the actual one shown in the Eickhorn catalog. It is around somewhere and so is the SS one. 100% right. So--I know some of the newbies and some of the oldies who did not see this stuff and hold it in their hands like I did doubt some of the testimony from the old days. But-I was there-- I saw it--and it was right. Believe me or not but I least I have told you.

I could be wrong here but wasn't there another notorious case a few years back that revolved around the Luftwaffe Generals sword. As I remember it,the sword was catalogued by WKC but the consensus was that they had never actually made any.
Again, as I remember it, the sole recognized manufacturer of these Luftwaffe swords was Eickhorn.
Don't mean to stray off the subject but there certainly are instances of items being catalogued but never made.
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by derek chapman:
Frederick Stephens asks if, like the SA, the award of an Ehrendolch was indicated by a simple box with a tick in it on an SS member's file. The answer is yes.Derek

I have looked through quite a few SS officers files, and no "ticks" anywhere to be seen for this. No mentioning whatsoever of "Ehrendolch".

There is however special mentioning of the Ehrendegen, but no other edged weapons are to be "ticked off".

Derek, can you elaborate on why you state this? Have you seen any reference in SS personnell-files to "Ehrendolch"?

Best regards,

quote:

The one Jack Angolia shows in his book came out of the woodwork many years ago and was in his collection for many many years-and never for sale. I know because a friend and I tried to buy it back in the very early 60's when he had it on display.
It later was sold to Bob Waitts and Brian Maederer after the attempted robbery at Jack's home when he sold out most of his collection.
In addition, back in the old days, in the collection of mega advanced dagger collector Robert Moses was a pristine 33 type SA Honor Dagger w/ plain blade with a tag and W/ the 35-41 TM.

Houston, This is an SA Honor that you speak of ? Which Angolia book and page as I would like to see which dagger we're talking about.

Dear Hor-Helge,
Here is an example of the first and earlier version of the Stammkarte. It shows the dagger being listed in the second column, as is correct for the period, as the Honour Dagger of the SA and SS.
Derek

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
On the next page the catalog states the Honor Dagger is for the Hohere Fuhrer--which I believe means --High Leader. So--this seems to be the answer--it was there all the time. Honor Dagger for High Leaders.

Could some with a better grasp of German please translate the statment under "Hohere Fuhrer Ehren Dolch". It's something to the effect that "run by the retail trade is forbidden"
Jim

Jim,
It's saying that the dagger is not available for sale through the retail trade.
Derek

Thanks Derek:
I guess the implacation here is that you couldn't just buy one so this does seem to mean that they were all presented as has been speculated in this thread.
Jim

Jim,
Yes, absolutely. It is a common injunction in period documents for special presentations or awards.
Just in case my scan above is a bit too small here is a close-up of the relevant box.
Derek

Derek,
Thank you very much!

I think this is dated 1935, yes?

All the later Stammrollen I have seen (war-time) omit this info.
Ofcourse now all we need to find out is that what is the word "Ehrendolch" meaning in this doc, what dagger are we talking about...

Here are some attached scans of Theodor Eicke's files. He was wearing the chained honor dagger (high leaders dagger) in a pic in TW's book, so I deliberately chose his records.

Cheers,

close up

JR-I said SS and its on page # 65 of Daggers, Bayonets and Fighting Knives of Hitler's Germany by Angolia. Jack also says there was a required certificate and they could be bought but he does not state the reference for this information.

Jim,

My understanding is that no private person could buy any SS dagger, Honor, chained, M33, or Rohm/Himmler. They had to be procured through "official channels" whatever that means.

Derek,

In TW's SS book, there is a photo of an SS document using the term "Ehrendolch" which was issued with the Rohm Dedication daggers. I would guess that in your post above, it is that dagger which is in question.

Everyone,

It was either a very old thread here or an article on a reference book that pointed out that catalogs were advertising material, not a technical document. As such, it was said that the drawings and photos were sometimes enhanced to increase the appeal.

Dave

Tor-Helge,
The document I posted refers to the standard Honour dagger of the SA and the SS, awarded for early membership. Note the man was an SS-Anwarter in 1931 thus fulfilling the criterion for this dagger.
Eicke's dagger was the Honour Dagger for High Leaders and as a such wouldn't have an entry in the standard service file. If you have his complete file look through it and see if the page is there that shows his gifts from the SS. The dagger may well be listed there.
I will find and post a slightly later document that shows the long service Honour Dagger now being listed as a purely SS item.
Derek

Appreciate that Houston and thank you.

My thinking is that these daggers, high leaders SS, were distributed to the recipients more or less "unofficially", not noted in the military records.
This confirms as I see it that we are not talking about an official SS gift or award.
Even the Julleuchter was noted on the service records...

Cheers,

Dave,
I'm not quite sure what you mean about "private individuals" being unable to buy a dagger. Certainly a non-member wouldn't be able to purchase a dagger but all eligible Allgemeine-SS members were expected to purchase their daggers. Officers were required to.
Here is the listing from the 1935 price list showing the relevant items.
Derek

Tor-Helge,
I think such a dagger would indeed be mentioned in an officer's file. The pieces presented to high ranking officers were meticulously recorded. I think somebody mentioned earlier that perhaps these items were possibly obtained by the RFSS for free. I doubt it, note how even the prices of gifts were recorded in the files, from his Allach flag bearer right down to a bunch of carnations for this officer's wife.
Derek
Derek

Private individual = non SS

Thought you all might be interested in the "Ehren" and other daggers from Himmler's gift list usually found included among the "Other" gift category. 1934 was a generous year.

Ross Kelbaugh

All of those 34 listings are Himmler daggers and perhaps those that took part in the Rohm purge.

Now some of those indicate "with signature or dedication" and some don't. Maybe there is no difference--and maybe there is??????
and---Would Himmler have an SS Rohm on his gift list?
I would not think so.
Another thought--Gifts are not usually charged for-Are these free presentations with no cost to the recipient? Looks like it to me.

To Dave�s question on catalogs: My recollection is that there was a discussion somewhere involving a WKC 1940 (?) catalog which had artists drawings of blades - especially as regards the details and coloration. And that the artists representations could be either realistic or artistic - but not necessarily accurate.

And the underlying main point being that a drawing is just a drawing and not a photograph of a production item. FP

I don't think there's any question that Himmler was a prolific gift giver. I had the pleasure of examining a highly engraved Walther PP a few weeks ago that had been presented by him to a high up in the Reich Finance Ministry. Perhaps this individual had some control over the SSs purse strings?
Jim

Something to perhaps provide a different perspective on the topic is the matter of costs. Rounded off: The average "retail" price on the M1933 SS dagger was 7 RM. The M1936 12 RM. The cost to make the chain and center mount for the M1936 dagger should not have been 5 RM - so it seems obvious that some profit was added to the dagger�s price with the benefit going to the SS.

During the same time the cost of a standard German Army service rifle (98K) was 75 RM. While obviously rifle makers did not manufacture them without financial benefit. They were quantity purchases and most likely reasonably close to what it probably cost to make the rifles.

I don�t have a period cost figure for the SS �Honor� daggers in any configuration. But if we use (just for the sake of discussion) 10 x the amount charged for the standard M1933 SS service dagger for an �Honor� dagger that is roughly the cost of one rifle. FP

Thank you Ross for posting those scans, Which files are they from?
Derek

These engraved pistols come in black,silver and gold

The gold

interesting on derek chapman's post of a pricelist and a creditlist

a bunch of flowers "Nelken" = carnation?
costs 20 RM, nearly three times more than a dagger with about RM 7,30