I have started a new thread as the other one has pages of poor quality pictures.

Firstly, posting anything outside the norm on this forum can be quite disapointing as people can end up very disapointed by the views of some of the users. I really dont mind what you think about this so feel free to post it.

I strongly believe that the major benefit we all get from using forums like this is that we can compare pieces, learn from experience and talk about those little things that are a bit unusal.

I went to buy a few SAs today and ended up looking at this again for an hour or so. I have quite a few SS daggers maybe around ten or so, early, late, a few chained etc etc. Anyhows I really fell in love with this as it is absolutely so right but is wrong. I know its not textbook but everything about it is right so I have taken a whole load of pictures and will post them here so everyone can have an opinion on this unusual piece.

I think the debate will do us all good, I will not take offence as I just love it anyhows and will not be parting with it!.

Good fittings all typical with early Herder

Same great lower fitting grip to crossguard

You cant really see on this picture but there is the typical ware that you see with chained daggers on the top scabbard mount when they keep getting hit by the chains. It is very typical of period ware and is on both sides.

Steel centre mount, completely genuine but clearly not meant to be attached to a 33 Herder. Well fitted with period screws etc in exacctly the right position.

Lower scabbard fitting same as the top one a N/S Herder one. The fittings and the early annodised scabbard are the correct scabbard for this 33 Herder.

Picture of the steel chain, all would be considered as correct in every way if not attached to this 33 Herder.

DRGM visable from the top of the clover leaf

Excellent detail to all the links

Now this is where it starts getting interesting. Original upper Herder scabbard fitting. Completely matches all the other fittings on the Dagger and the Scabbard. You can see all the small dents better in this picture, typical from wear when the chain hits the fitting. Perfectly attached fitting to connect the steel chain.

Chain again

fitting onto NS top scabbard fitting from revers

Centre ramp reverse

Upper scabbard fitting reverse, look how well the steel chain has been attached to the original N/S cross guard

more 1

more 2

Side view

Top side

Now the blade, absolutely stunning.. Believe it or not it looks better in the flesh. The cross grain is awsome you can just sit looking at it for ages.

blade 2

blade 3

blade 4

last

So I am pleased that I bought it today, but like I said earlier it is very unusual because it is all right but wrong.

It is not a parts dagger in the traditional way. The 33 sits original and complete in every way except for the centre ramp and chain being attached.

Its not an early 33 dagger in a 36 scabbard so we know that is not the case.

That would lead me to then think "field upgrade" "factory upgrade" or someones rendition of frankenstein!.

For a split second I thought remove the chain assembly and have a fabulous 33 Herder. Now the problem is I do think its period. I dont know how or why but it is not trying to be something its not if you know what I mean.

So thoughts and opinions now welcome...

Just to answer Daves question on the other thread the top scabbard fitting has not been changed it appears to be the original 33 Herder one that has had the new fitting to accomadate the chain skillfully set and soldered in.

The scabbard and both fittings are N/S from the original Herder.

What you have is a factory M36 scabbard with an early dagger installed in it.What makes this so hard to see. It is obvious nothing field upgrade about it. Corret me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you think that because the chain is steel that it belongs on a RZM type dagger (steel fittings) This is not the case.Type 1 chained scabbards came just the way yours is from the factory (Early Dagger Added to scabbard.Now if you go and start removing items to construct what you think is correct you will have ruined a historically correct dagger.I hope you paid a field upgrade price for a historically correct dagger.

Zorro If that is the case I am very pleased as it would be a more desirable piece than I bought it as

But on handling it gives you the destinct impression its a complete 33 Herder that has had the centre ramp etc put on a bit later.

Anyone got any similar pictures to compare it to?

Just to point out that where the chain meets the top N/S fitting its fastening link is made out of Steel soldered to the N/S. I would have thought if it was all made together it would have all been N/S???

Not the case.You will never see a nickel type 1 chain.Also type 1 chains are only on anodized scabbards.Looks like you have a waffen SS mans original dagger in a 1936 scabbard,he was proud of that first dagger and did not really care what us collectors thought about it.I must concur,you did good

Mongo, if you had doubt's why did you buy?, you are quite obviously happy with your purchase so what's the problem? I know nowt about SS/SA's, your's and possibly other members reservations about this piece could provide valuable lessons for the the inexperienced, please enlighten us further as to why you think its wrong/right.

Nolan

I'd like to make a couple of corrections to what zorro has stated. First, although most type I scabbards were anodized with two screws on the center ramp, some are found with painted scabbards with one screw. See Wittmann page 131 for such an example. Second, there is at least one example of a solid nickel type I chain that was sold recently on WAF. Here is a photo.

Also a painted scabbard with one screw.

Mongo you made the following statement: "Lower scabbard fitting same as the top one a N/S Herder one." Are you saying that you can identify the lower scabbard fitting as Herder? Also, I notice that your dagger has a short D-ring hanger attached. What did it attach to? It's too small to fit an SS belt. I too have one of these.

I would just like to add that if you put pigs in the luggage compartment of a plane they probably will fly.Not for sure but probably.

You can make philosophical swine analogies all day long if it makes you feel better. Wittmann wrote the tome... perhaps you should invest in it. As for the above photos, I'm sure most will recognize the author. Not mine.

"Do not cast pearls before swine".......... I do feel better.

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Not the case.You will never see a nickel type 1 chain.Also type 1 chains are only on anodized scabbards.Looks like you have a waffen SS mans original dagger in a 1936 scabbard,he was proud of that first dagger and did not really care what us collectors thought about it.I must concur,you did good

Zorro You have arrived at the same conclusion. Not every thing is textbook until it appears in a textbook!.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline Drive:
Mongo you made the following statement: "Lower scabbard fitting same as the top one a N/S Herder one." Are you saying that you can identify the lower scabbard fitting as Herder? Also, I notice that your dagger has a short D-ring hanger attached. What did it attach to? It's too small to fit an SS belt. I too have one of these.

The chape was copared to one on standard 33 Herder of the same period they were identical .

Now there has been some debate over this piece, as stated in this thread I dont mind having a debate about it in a constructive way in the spirit of collecting.

Personally I dont care either way if its a nice early 33 in a 36 scabbard (standardly accepted) or a complete 33 Herder with the period addition of the Steel centre ramp and chain (field upgrade).

I own and accept that 36s come in all sorts of configurations. All Nickle silver, Plated scabbard fittings and Nickle fittings on the dagger, and even part and part on the chain assembly and scabbard fittings. You can have one with a 36 scabbard and 33 dagger in or even a Himmler in it.

What is causing the confusion here is side by side with another early 33 Herder (like my full Rohm) all the fittings are the same size shape and colour with the exception of the ramp and chain. The top solid nickle fitting seems to have had the ring removed and a square angled steel mount soldered to it to hold the chain.

Now no one would debate the existance of a "Field upgrade NSKK" nor even the fact that SA honour daggers were upgraded by the addition of a chain assembly and centre mount. So why is it so hard to believe that someone who had an early 33 Herder somehow had a chain assembly put onto it?.

I wish there would be a worldwide ban on the word "textbook"!!!

Second that LOL as previously pointed out it is not textbook until someone puts it in one.

early type 1 chained had a painted scabard with one screw fixing. The centre ramp on this dagger seems to have gaps on it. This rings alarm bells to me. They all had a tight fit and why only the one screw? I dont like this scabard. Seems to be a parts dagger I would not consider it for my collection

sorry it has two screws but I still do not like it

I don't really see anything wrong with this Chained SS, other than the fact that an early M33 dagger was added to an M36 scabbard.
I call those "mismatched" and they were not meant to be that way, so they cannot be called "fieldupgrades" IMO.
You couldn't buy just a Chained scabbard and simply add your existing M33 dagger into it.<
That said, the most important thing is that all parts are 100% original and though not "textbook", sorry for using the term, I see this type of configurations on many top dealer's web sites.
I wouldn't mind buying one if the price is right.
Usually, they will sell cheaper than a textbook model type, about 10% less but no big deal.
It is the same with those Chained SS having a Gau mraked on their crossguards, not textbook but still very desirable and they will also sell at a 10% discount.

Who knows what happened 70 years ago with those daggers, none of us were there.

It is still a very nice Chained SS with all original parts.

Pat I have had many type 1 chained daggers all have a tight centre ramp fitting with no gaps. Have a close look at the pictures.

Sir,

To be quite frank with you, it is difficult to say for sure based on these pics alone.
A hand inspection would be required to be certain.
Center ramps are usually very tight on these.