UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Presentation Sword to RK Winner

I think that Ron makes a good point. Craig had a vision. And we have to respect the work that he put into this web site to make it a success. FP

This is what Thomas M. Johnson had to say.
July 9, 2007

Dear Rob:

Thank you very much for both your telephone call last week and your follow-up email. You mentioned to me that a Presentation Luftwaffe sword belonging to you was taking some serious hits on the Germandaggers.com forum. I think that this is a classic example of why I (and many others) tend to wonder why anyone takes the time and effort to post a valued piece in his collection on one of the forums. Although, I seldom have the opportunity to look at the forum threads, when I do, I am amazed by the fact that if a piece stays on long enough, regardless of the edged weapon involved, it eventually seems to receive some negative comments. I think this is why many serious collectors and dealers have opted out of participatin g in the forums. Obviously, the negative comments can be caused by a certain sense of jealousy that you own the piece and they do not, or they may originate with collectors who really do not have the expertise to judge the authenticity of a rare piece.

What you have with your Presentation Luftwaffe sword, which appears on page 158 of my Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume I is a superb 3rd Reich sword. If memory serves, collector Donald Vernon of New York State had owned this particular sword for some time prior to making the decision to have it pictured in my Volume I, the first edition which was printed in 1975. It is a sword that I was very desirous to purchase for my private collection at that time, but unfortunately, it was not for sale. It is a sword that I would be proud to own and place in my own collection in 2007, as well.

The problem with negative comments that appear on the forum is that it can make you doubt the authenticity of the sword yourself over a period of time, and, it also can have a very negative impact on the salability of the sword, when and if you decide to sell it in the future. Invariably, someone will think at the time of the sale, "I remember reading something years ago about one or more problems with that sword, so I don't think that I am interested". This places you, the seller, at an extreme disadvantage.

I do think that a valid question can be raised about the "1942" date on the Presentation sword blade and the early nickel silver hilt and scabbard fittings, and I posed the same question to collector Vernon in the early 1970's. However, I think that this particular subject has already been explored on this thread. The bottom line, Rob, is that I would be very proud to own this sword today, and I think you are fortunate to have it in your collection.

I am traveling today to our printer in South Carolina to work on the 2007 MAX Program, but if you want to contact me at a later date, I can provide you with even additional information on this magnificent sword.

If you want to post my comments on the forum, Rob, you have my permission to do so, as long as you post my entire email response.



Sincerely,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

Re-the sword--I think Tom Johnson said it all. The fittings and scabbard may have been replaced but perhaps not. A LOT of edged weapons in ALL collections MAY have replaced parts. Yes, mine!, Yes, yours! The blade is the main thing. IMO unmarked Eickhorn but 100% original IMO. A bit unusual? Yes. Still original? Yes, IMO. Would it be better with the TM and aluminum fittings and 100% owner to owner records since the presentation? Yes? But who has ANYTHING like that?
The assault on Craig is uncalled for. We all can make a mistake. No one has proved that he did though-it's just opinion. There is NO agreement on that! He has NOT refused to make good and probably has NOT been asked to. He offers a LIFETIME return policy! Do you?
Re: The dagger. NO one here has seen it in hand. It might be a bit unusual. Does that make it a fake? NO. No one here knows. It's just opinion based on a few photos. Photos of just about anything can be taken to make you think something is fake. That's because NOTHING is perfect and blowup photos show that.
Thanks for THE FORUM Craig! AND for all the parties and the great things you have done for the hobby, for me, and for many collectors. I'm proud to have you for a friend.

My first response is to Rob NL,

Rob - I applaud your initiative in presenting the "differing issues" concerning your sword to LtC. (ret) Tom Johnson, and I am pleased to acknowledge that you offered LtC Johnson's reply in full and unexpurgated form.

I think it is sad and unacceptable that you have to fight the claim to establish the righteousness of your sword - when the man who sold it to you (and maybe some other questionable items?) has suddenly decided that he cannot answer questions or resolve inconvenient enquiries.

I think that that says a lot about his so-called "life-time guarantees". So I would advise you to consider these circumstances very carefully.

I do not question LtC Johnson's overall response to your enquiry, because I think that he would actually like to examine the piece personally before making a definitive statement. Therefore I will leave that exposition until a better, more informed, moment.

Respectfully yours

Frederick J. Stephens

Sorry , Frederick J. Stephens , in wich part of the reply of Thomas Johnson did you read that he wants to examine the sword personally ?
I didnt see it , please point out where.

Here is the bit that I didn't get to present previously - maybe because of the robust oferings by some of my contemporaries.
No problem fellows, we can slug it out - Marquis of Queensbury rules, OK?

To reply to other issues: Yes - to Fred P and Ron W, you are quite correct. Craig did have a vision using this Internet business to promote the hobby - same as some of us older guys (in the distant past) used the printing press to get our ideas and information across. We have all put our bit in to this hobby, hopefully for the benefit of everyone who cares to look in and consider what we say. The same goes for Craig in getting this site up and off the ground - he opened a new chapter.

Thus said, that doesn't give Craig the right to engage in character assassination. That doesn't give him the right to suppress answers and photos submitted to this thread because they are uncomfortable to him.

Craig launched this thread in an open and public forum to make his case against a particular individual - whom he expected to humiliate (in my personal view). The story of the General Wolf Sword correspondingly became a contentious issue.

The fact is that the widespread response to the question of the item’s presumed authenticity went against him, and it seems to have resulted in his enforcing of the silencing of free debate and answers. Craig has gone to ground and now declines to speak up.

I refuse to be subjucated in this hobby by someone whose interest is less concerned with the factual purity of the artifacts - and more motivated by the financial gain to be achieved by marketing them. I do not mind that items are bought, sold, and traded, and that people make a profit - that is how economic societies survive.

Yet when those trading issues involve items suspected of being fraudulent - and the sole response within this site is to silence the debate against the item, rather than to examine the claims of fraudulence associated with it - then I have to ask the obvious question: What is this site achieving by restricting fair and open debate; and who benefits by the curtailment of strong and probing questions?

And in final response to Rob NL (in the previous entries), you can go directly to LtC Tom Johnson, or any other established authority, and ask them if I am known for telling "untruths" or distorting history.

Go right ahead - I will not ask anyone, or inform them, of this circumstance. Ask them to give you their answers privately (not on this site), and then you can determine what it is that you perceive to be truth.

I stand by everything I have stated.

Frederick J. Stephens

I would not need to comment any further. Houston has stated my opinion probably better than I could have and not incited anything to displease anyone further. He has stated what I believe is correct from my view.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

No , I just ask to point out to me where you have read that Thomas Johnson would like to examine it personally.
Ever thought of it , that maybe you also could be wrong ? Even all the wisdom that you have , you also can make mistakes, all of us can .

Rob NL,

I appreciate your direct contact to me through this correspondence.

What I stated was: "that LtC Johnson would actually like to examine the piece personally before making a definitive statement".

We all make comments on pieces unseen - sometimes by photograph - and yet I submit to you that LtC Johnson would probably prefer a first hand visual sighting of the artifact, before he makes a conclusive statement regarding it.

In my concluding comment to this thread (i.e. Rob NL,) if you want to contact me privately, then I will give you my direct line telephone number. I am available to talk to -[ just pursue my email address.

I stand fully behind everything I have stated - if you want the challenge me - then go for it.

I am prepared to fight this case at every quarter.

Frederick J. Stephens

I think that both sides here have made "a great case" for their opinions. But-IMO -there will never be agreement. It's just opinion. Both Frederick J. and Craig have made IMO great and significant contributions to the hobby most of us love. I thanked Craig before but I would like to thank Fred also for all his numerous and significant contributions. They don't agree here. So what? That does not mean that they need to try to destroy each other.
The matter of the dagger IMO is up to the owner. If he wants to have it examined here that is his right. But- he does not have to just because some want to. Craig does not have to answer to this forum or anyone about other collector's property he has sold if the owner does not wish it. How many would like some of their favorite things torn apart here? Oh yeah! We can do it here to ANYTHING!
So-I would hope we can end this. Nothing can be gained if this continues. It's just opinion. IMO

HAHAHA , fight?
No thanks , I have a day off.
Also , Thomas allready inspected the sword , so I thought I heard.
We will just leave it at that then.

This seems to be degenerating into a personality conflict. If you have new info to provide, please do so, but, please, no more attacks.

Dave

Mistakes I am sure can be made but Honestly I have sold a TON of stuff over the last 20 years myself and have never had any 1 item sent back,not for any reason.SO there should be some mystical grace period if an item is over 5K or 10K...Not a good enough excuse to NOT know what your doing.Most normal people cant get away with the "oh well" attitude at their jobs in real life,they would get fired.

With all due to respect to Ltc. Johnson who has done a lot for this hobby Vol. I has some examples which are now known to be fakes and some otherwise questionable information. A particularly interesting example is on page 254. My point here is not to disrespect all of the good he has done. But to point out that we all are capable of making mistakes, and knowledge is cumulative not instantaneous. And when access is denied it does raise questions.

Craig it seems to me had prepared himself for this discussion. After it was introduced the larger issue for me became the Luftwaffe dagger - not the sword. If Craig (and Rob) were prepared to discuss the sword - why is the dagger being hidden from view? I don’t get it. Here is an opportunity for collectors all over the world to see some of the top names in collecting demonstrate their knowledge with something new. What kind of lesson is being learned if others ever have to seek assistance when faced with similar circumstances? FP

Is it just me or are the biggest critics those who claim to be perfect or those who NEVER post anything unusual and in fact not much of anything of their own? I wonder why? Can this be considered as denied access? Get real. Show us some of your wonderful stuff so it can be torn apart. Come on-those who have never seen one are waiting to tell you what's wrong with it.

Houston, I’m not quite sure what to make of your remarks. Is this a call for “show and tell” ? Or is it intended for some other reason?

While I’ve posted an item or two when I thought appropriate. I haven’t sensed any real interest in anything but Third Reich. Which is fine by me. Personally I stopped series collecting Third Reich a while back when I started to lose interest in uniform accessories versus actual weapons of war. (No doubt due to my misspent youth as a gun collector.) It just seemed to me that swords intended to be actual weapons had more history. Of course I kept some reference examples. But as I explained, while they were at one time my main focus, they are not currently.

I hope that it is understood that I’m honestly not trying to divert attention away from the actual topic itself. So pursuant to your request here are a couple of examples for discussion:

The first is my example of a “Prinz Eugen”. Not the modern version, but one from when he was a living hero.

The second one is a presentation sword by the officers of a regiment of the British German Legion to their commanding officer. The British German Legion as you no doubt remember was raised for service in the Crimean War.

Examples three and four you no doubt recognize as the Preußischer Kürassierpallasch M1819, and M 1817. I always liked heavy cavalry swords. And because of my ancestry really appreciate their place in history.

I don’t know if this is what you intended. But I’m looking forward to see what in have in the way of comparable examples. If not, I imagine we could always go back to the discussion about the Luftwaffe sword. And especially the Luftwaffe dagger. Regards, FP

British German Legion presentation.

Prussian heavy cavalry.

I for one will not be called out into Houstons ****ing contest : ) seriously I show few items because I am very comfortabe with the items I buy wheather it be from a Private party or a dealer.Fact is most of the items I have from major dealers have been very disapointing with the exception of You Houston

Tom, It wasn’t my intention to engage in ******g contest. I don’t have that many already prepared images on my computer. And I know that Houston has an outstanding collection.

What I was trying to do was get the discussion back on track. And at the same time indicate that there is not a monopoly when it comes to collecting. I know someone who has items rivaling even some of Houston’s. FP

Fred It was not direct towards you...lovely swords by the way : ) but was said some what tounge in cheeck towards Houstons comment.

Frog Prinz, a little bemused at your statement,"The second one is a presentation sword by the officers of a regiment of the British German Legion to their commanding officer. The British German Legion as you no doubt remember was raised for service in the Crimean War." WHAT IS THE BRITISH GERMAN LEGION?

Dave wrote ;This seems to be degenerating into a personality conflict. If you have new info to provide, please do so, but, please, no more attacks.

Dave
Was that one for me Dave???
I am really shure that my reply was not an attack.
I just stated that he read something in that e-mail that was not there.
Fred Prinz , please keep in mind that the Eickhorn Luftwaffe dagger was NOT posted by me or by Craig.
So whats there to discuss?
By the way , your swords seem postwar

Rob NL,

The story behind the photos of the Luftwaffe dagger, is that just after the MAX Show last year Craig phoned me up to tell me about the wonderful dagger he had bought.

He asked me to write up a highly favourable appraisal of the piece, and e-mailed me photos. Upon sight of the photos I stated that I couldn't write a favourable appraisal on the piece, because I considered that the etched inscription was false and post-war - and I explained why I considered it to be wrong.

Craig's immediate response was that I didn't know what I was talking about - which is rather funny when you consider that he had just been asking me to appraise the item (as he felt that my approval would dispell any other notion that the etching was faked).

When I introduced the dagger into this thread, it was to make a point about etching and to get Craig to respond. I didn't know at that time that Craig had sold the dagger to yourself.

Craig's response was to get the photos removed from the thread as fast as possible. It seems that my word is only good when I am praising the glories of something he has; but when I say something against it then my commentary has to be removed from public view. All this from the man who thought that he and I could write a book on reproductions together.

Right after the images were removed from the site, Craig phoned me up and told me in no uncertain terms that I was "not a gentleman" for having introduced those images into this thread.

Perhaps Craig is right, maybe I am "not a gentleman", but I also consider that a gentleman would not sell that dagger as wholly original to another collector - especially as he had asked for my opinion and appraisal, and knew from me where the etched inscription was at fault.

I will not put the images back up on this thread without your permission. But if you wish I will send them to you privately, together with my analysis showing where I find the etched dedication to be wrong.

Sincerely yours

Frederick J. Stephens

Now that is a piece of the puzzle from FJ Stephens which explains some of the dynamics. Every story has two sides. So it will be very interesting to see what the response is to the above.

What was the British German Legion? Everybody (well almost everybody) knows about the King’s German Legion in the service of the British crown during the Napoleonic Wars. The KGL was very well thought of - but like many other military formations was disbanded after the end of the military campaigns. Remnants were incorporated into the emerging state armies.

Fast forward to the Crimean War. With the British Army stretched thin. It was suggested that because of the exemplary service of German soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars that German soldiers again be recruited to serve the now British Empire in that campaign. Queen Victoria (who was also of German ancestry) approved of the idea. And the British German Legion came into being.

Rob, Which (post) wars are you referring to? When Prince Eugene stopped the Ottoman Turks from invading Europe, the Napoleonic Wars, or the Crimean War?

Regards to All, FP

Come on now FP,,that surprises you?!
Be sure that pratice happens all the time,,except to those dealers who can write up the COA for themselves...........

Mr Stephens

Thank you for having the courage of your convictions and stating what you believe.You are one of the true early voices of reason and sanity.

Sincerly.
TOM

quote:

Originally posted by Tom:
Mr Stephens

Thank you for having the courage of your convictions and stating what you believe.You are one of the true early voices of reason and sanity.

Sincerly.
TOM

I will second that !
Too many people are afraid to speak out and it is very refreshing to see that some people are still "standing high".
For those that like to read "between the lines", I'm not making my comments in regard to the authenticity issue of the sword or dagger, I'm merely stating that it takes some courage to go against the "main stream" gurus.
I'm not questionning Craig's integrity either but merelly stating Mister's Frederick behavior.
Whether Frederick is right or wrong, doesn't make any difference.
The pictures of the sword were willingly posted and asked for comments.
If someone do not want to have any feedback, then don't post the damn pictures in the first place.
You ask someone's opinion and because he doesn't agree with the "expected" answer, he get's the dirty talk.
In any case, there are many private e.mails being exchanged about this saga at the moment and some would be very surprised if they knew who were some of the silent voices.
I do understand the "silent voices" for not going public, as many are big name dealers/collectors.
I can only agree with Tom and I just wish that more people like Frederick, would speak out loud and clear.

What would be the purpose of this forum, or any other forum for that matter, if we didn't give our opinion..............when asked ?
In all honesty, if I see a dagger that I'm certain is fake and that is being posted on the forum, I will speak out and I don't care if the dagger was bought from Craig, Witmann or God for that matter.
If the damn dagger if wrong, I will speak out.

Many daggers were sold 15 or 20 years ago and back then, they didn't have the internet as a reference tool.
Many things have changed since the internet and it is now a much better world and will agree that it is heart braking, to find out after 20 years that some of your stuff could be fake.
Would you rather not know that it is fake ?
Not me for me, even if it hurts.

God bless !

BTW, Yes, it is a great forum and sincerely believe that it is the best militaria site in the world.
Thanks to Craig and all the contributors.

As one said, "even if you're the best military General in the world, if you have no soldiers that wants to fight along with you, you'll loose the war".

Who said that GDC was dead ?
Already 11,000 viewings on this thread alone.

In all of this discussion we don’t want to forget the “Management Team” which is operating the site. They have permitted the thread to continue when it could have been shut down or erased. That takes considerable courage for what very possibly has been at times an unpleasant experience.

It is also a sign of a forum which is maturing or has already matured to the point where discussions can rise or fall based upon their relative merits. Free from undue influence. For that they have my Personal Thanks. And I am confident the gratitude of the many unseen individuals who rely upon the forum for information. FP

I have always voiced my opinion (and stated it was just that) and have taken some heat in the past. In this case, opinions were stated and no bad mouthing or name calling occurred to any extent which is the way it should be on all the militaria sites.
As a collecting community there will be differences of opinion as it should be. What is good is the fact that we can disagree and no one is hurt by the action.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
NO, I am not a member of the dealer cartell!

I agree with RON,as a discussion goes this could have really turned bad real fast I think most here have kept level heads,something which the site should be proud of.As the The powers that be they do need to comended as I am sure we have kept you on your toes.

I’m completely in agreement that there is nothing wrong with having a different opinion. I’ve been know to have a different opinion myself a time or two. Where it gets a little out of hand IMO is when one party is verbally belittled or put down in an attempt to bolster someone else’s own standing in a disagreement. Besides not addressing the actual issue at hand. Sometimes such an attack can come back and discredit the offending party even more when their argument falls apart.

Regarding a “dealer’s cartel” I would have to rely to some extent on what I have been told by others. Which I won’t repeat here because I don’t know all the circumstances. And don’t like to speculate or publicly repeat without substantial specific personal knowledge.

I will say this. For what it is worth, I don’t ever remember Ron Weinand’s name being mentioned in that kind of a negative context. Which includes face to face discussions with other collectors including some fairly advanced ones. FP

Well, I must confess that I think that this debate has now reached the end of its life. It truly has been a probing and vibrant exchange of commentary, and one within which I am really pleased to have been an active participant. Good points were made all round, but in response to Craig’s challenge I feel that I gave him a far more robust argument than he was anticipating.

To Rob NL, I am sorry that I was the bearer of bad news for you, so I do understand if you are still annoyed at me. It was nothing personal against you - I had been challenged to make my observations public, which I did. When things cool down I hope that we can talk again in some future time, in happier circumstances.

Christopher J. Ailsby brought up some good points about how disagreements between buyer and seller might be resolved. So I hope that the two parties involved can reach some agreement.

It was pleasing to see that another member, RedBaron, echoed my views on etching and calligraphic practice - but then as we both have similar training in the graphics industry, we were already tuned in to look for particular types of indicator within the inscription.

Fred Prinz, and also Ron Weinand, brought in some excellent points concerning the exterior of the sword, all of which are worth remembering for the clues that they reveal. Sometimes when one is examining the minutiae of a single feature, you forget to look at the overall picture - so I am appreciative to Fred and Ron for having presented their expert observations.

I am also grateful to all those of you who stepped in with statements of support for myself and the case I was presenting, notably Jim M, Tom, and also Pat, who put their comments up on the thread. There are also many others who contacted me by e-mail. I thank you all, and I will get around to replying to you.

So, gentlemen, for me this is the moment to step down and bow out gracefully. It has been an exhilarating ride. I will no doubt be catching up with you again on some other thread. Farewell, and good luck.

Frederick J. Stephens


Hey Craig. We have finished - you can come out now!

Fred one question,is the NEW book by you and Craig still on the burner or has it been shelved.

x

O U C H !!!!!

GIVE LIGHT AND THE TRUTH BEKNOWN!

Seiler (Yank in UK)

Book? Writing a book is not a problem, right?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria