UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Presentation Sword to RK Winner

Having spent an all too brief time with elements of the postwar Luftwaffe I found them to be both friendly and what we would call high spirited. The Luftwaffe was a junior member of the Wehrmacht and had a high proportion of young men, and especially young pilots both officer and enlisted.

Rob mentioned a small pig. That works for me because “Wild Sau” is what some night fighter operations were known as. And I can quite easily see Luftwaffe pilots having some fun by “honoring” one of their own with a pig.

I also don’t have a problem with his comrades purchasing him a dagger as a gift.

Where "the rubber hits the road” is this:

By October 1, 1937 officers were to replace their old (1st) model daggers with the new 2nd model. The regulations were quite clear - no exceptions and in fact the wearing of the 2nd model was later extended to others.

Had it been a second model dagger it would not aroused nearly as much suspicion as to being a fake. Even better would have been a second model that was engraved because of the time constraints involved.

What we actually have in front of us is a 1st model with an etched blue and gold blade. Not something that could have been done overnight in 1938 - much less late in 1944.

Rob could have proved those who called the dagger into question wrong in a heartbeat with some period photographs. The only thing I saw was part of the dagger before it was very quickly pulled. The piece is his. If he decides to pull out of the discussion and quietly discuss the matter with Craig I don’t know if I would really blame him. He did not start the discussion. And I don’t think he anticipated what would happen when he first became a participant.

The greater loss I think is to collectors all over the world. Who will most definitely encounter not only originals, but also fakes pretending to be originals, coming out of old collections. If nothing else this discussion is a “wake up call” to collectors to exercise some independent thought. And if you lack expertise seek some expert advice. Preferably from those who have no financial or other connection to an item. FP

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Rob mentioned a small pig. That works for me because “Wild Sau” is what some night fighter operations were known as. And I can quite easily see Luftwaffe pilots having some fun by “honoring” one of their own with a pig.

The pig, especially a tame one, would have been an appropriate if tongue in cheek gift. Single-engined fighters such as FW-190 were known as "Wilde Sau" (Wild Boars) when pressed into night operations under Hajo Herrmann.

Aircraft such as Schnaufer's radar-equipped Bf-110 or similarly equipped JU-88 flying freelance were known as "Zahme Sau" (Tame Boars).

Mr. Pedantic, errrrr Dwight.

I spoke with a friend of mine who was a fairly active collector almost 40 years ago. He confirmed that some very sophisticated high quality fakes were in circulation in the late 1960’s and afterward. He said that collectors back then were not as knowledgeable as they are now. And unless something was in a book. Or you knew somebody in the business, that a lot of fakes got passed off to unsuspecting collectors. He knows that he has fakes in his collection. But he is not really actively collecting now and he keeps them stored out of sight and out of mind.

He added that since the inception of the Internet the situation has changed considerably, and collectors now are a lot more aware of fakes. His regret is that he did not have the Internet 30 or 40 years ago because it would have saved him many thousands of dollars. And he could of used the money that he wasted to buy legitimate period artifacts.

Also, I’m not trying to “out pedantic” Mr. Pedantic (Dwight) who has made some good observations. But looking at the word “Sau” (Sow) I think that it has more of a gender specific/other connotation instead of the standard dictionary definition for a Boar. Perhaps someone who is more fluent than myself or a native German speaker could help. Is that true? And if so what would that be in the context of Luftwaffe night fighter operations? FP

This is a wonderful thread. For those who have proclaimed the death of GDC, the proof is in the pudding. This is a factual, informed, sometimes heated discussion, but overall conducted with courtesy and a fine example for others.

I am particularly interested in the discussion of sript and lettering evolution in the NS period in Germany, an issue discussed at some length here: http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6393090285/m/7410038334/p/1

At least two things are clear, it seems to me.

1. Even after the Martin Bormann edict regarding Fraktur, all lettering styles and typefaces known at the time co-existed until the end of the war, and, often, the engraver took artistic freedoms in his work. In a different thread I have shown that engraving machines also existed in germany durng the period.

2. Degrees of skill and craftsmanship from near perfection to borderline sloppy also coexisted and depended on the engraver/jeweler selected, budget, period of the war and materials available, priorities, etc. I have to agree with Craig that an unduly romantic view of "German craftsmanship" and skill often prevails in our hobby and often results in pieces with perceived flaws being instantly written off as fakes, post-war etc.

@Fred Prinz
This wilde Sau topic is really difficult now and I 'll try to help. But in some cases even for native germans it is hard. Ok we begin with wilde Sau: it is a raging pig. An animal living on Farms. The gender is more likely female but not necessarily so. Because not all germans are hunters or farmers. They use the words without too much considering the gender.
If it writes Wildsau, then a wild boar is ment. Male pigs are called Eber, male boars are called Keiler, female boars a called Bache and piglets are called Frischling.
Having said all this the usage of "Wilde Sau" makes sense, "Zahme Sau" not really because since it is a Sau it lives on the farm anyway and can be considered tame.
Now in the context of the nightfighters I can imagine that "Zahme Sau" was used for jokes and so on ecspecially from pilots of the FW-190 when talking about pilots of the new planes that where radar equiped.
I hope you guys can follow me.

@Gustavo i think especially your second point is very valuable and should always be considered by collectors. It does not take a lot to manufacture daggers and swords. The most difficult part is the blade. The tradition of making cutlery and edged weapons goes back beyond the year 1374 but was first documented back then. The Professions of Härter(person how makes the blade hard after it was produced), Schleifer (person how puts the Edge on the Blade) were privileged by writen decret in the year 1401. Over all these years the production Process was very dezentrilised. So Schleifer normaly had the shops near a small river so that water can propell the stones to grind the blades on.
Having said all this the point is that it takes a couple of people that know what they are doing and some quite simple tools. If one would have the raw blade it would be even simpler. As far as I know the blades are made in a "Gesenk" a form under a powered hammer. Those hammers are still to be found here in Solingen.

Edged weapons could be produced throughout the war and still can be and are being produced. And flaws can happen because these pieces are basically hand made. For RZM marked pieces there was obviousely some sort of "qualitiy control" to guarantee some sort of uniform apearance but for personalized items everything can happen i guess.

If anyone ever travelles to Solingen let me know , because then it would be a good idea to visit the "Klingenmuseum" Blademuseum and the "Industrie Museum" where one can follow the process of manufacturing in detail. Also visiting the Böker Company is possible and there you can see that making the Grabendolch is the same as it was some hundred years ago.

Greetz JT

Yep, I think most of us are thoroughly enjoying this thread... Good questions Gustavo, my perspective on typography relevant to this discussion relates to three distinct categories.

The first is type-set lettering which would be applied to printed matter in books, documents and newspapers etc, that is to say that the letters are not each individually drawn, rather by a printing press. This is where font styles or typefaces are most relevant (Bodoni, Caslon, Times etc.)

The second is hand lettering which would be applied to any variety of items. This would usually be drafted lettering drawn with the aid of tools, set squares, compasses etc. This type of artwork may be found on documents, trademarks, artwork for banners, medals, etc. often combined with elements of graphic artwork.

The third is calligraphy which is the art of lettering by hand without drafting tools, usually with a broad nib pen, executed by a scribe, a professional penman. This is the style relevant to this particular debate. It should also be noted that font styles are not too relevant in hand lettering (Bodoni, Caslon, Times etc.) as although calligraphy sometimes resembles print fonts, calligraphy would NOT be classified in printer's font-styles, rather generally in categories like Gothic, English, Arabic, etc.

A scribe or lettering artist was qualified as such, and as his dedicated trade would usually create a fine, technically correct piece of lettering. The challenge that effected the quality of their work was more the required size and scale of their artwork, sometimes the difficult surfaces that they had to apply to. (imagine the difficulty in letting with a broad pen with masking ink into the fuller of a blade). While difficult, they usually still maintained the rules of typography and penmanship. The point FJS made earlier about a scribe mixing between a Roman font and German script on a single dedications would be regarded as highly uncharacteristic, I can't see any reason for it, is it impossible? probably not, it could have been at the discretion of the artist, who knows... Lettering style is most interesting and you can note very distinct styles just by looking at the SS blade motto. The style usually applied to Bokers for example are more "Germanic" than the style seen on late E-Packs and many M36s with the rounded characters which are more "English" in style, each scribe has his own preferences. Compounding the issue of workmanship of the scribe and his level of perfection, this will usually depend on the preferences, individual style and skill of the scribe. If you were employed as a scribe, you were pretty good at it, the deterioration in quality lies more at the hands of ammeter penmen.

The problem with many fake dedication blades is that they use mechanical fonts, very often Letraset which was very popular during the 60's right through to the 80's after which the Apple Mac and its graphic programmes eventually made Letraset dry transfer lettering obsolete. Many of the UK fake bayos and bogus inscriptions I've seen use Letraset "Fraktur Bold" and Letraset "Old English". The fact that the inscriptions are identical to the Letraset rub-down letting leaves almost NO probability that the letting could have occurred during the war period. Simply, if an inscription matches any contemporary mechanical font, there is very little chance of originality if applied to a blade. I own a K98 bayo with a hand-lettered inscription, beautifully applied, a real detailed work of art, and by all accounts it is a post-war addition unlike those typical Fraktur lettered pieces we often see on eBay. To me this demonstrates that there were highly skilled tradesmen post-war rolling out superb pieces of blade art. If they could do such a remarkable etch on a bayonet, imagine the financial reward of applying their skill to an exotic sword or dagger blade.

Red Baron, I’m a little jealous. I don’t like fakes in my collection. (I got very seriously burned early in my marriage in a purchase from a large collection. Of three swords and one dagger, the two dismountable swords had been doctored. I was very fortunate in that my wife was very understanding, and I got my money back). The reason I'm having feelings of jealousy is because of the really high quality 98K bayonet that you describe. While like the more common garden variety etched combat bayonet it would not have any historical relevancy. I think it could possibly be an interesting contrast to legitimate specimens I have. (That does not mean that I’ve changed my mind about fakes in general.)

I appreciate your input on the topic. While anybody and everybody can have an “opinion”. Generally speaking the best input is usually from those who actually have some professional knowledge of a subject. I think we all know of examples in various areas where somebody has made an assumption which has no connection to the real world.


Gustavo, I’m in agreement with you, Craig, Houston, and others who point out that not everything done during the time of the Third Reich was perfect. Even in the early 1930’s blade makers for the Wehrmacht (that were 'milspec') manufactured substandard items. And by the end of the war the quality was significantly worse.

I also admire your interest in etching. While I have some knowledge of early etching, my knowledge of what was done during the Third Reich is more limited. I like a lot of others had really hoped that I would learn something when Craig started the topic. Especially on how to tell fakes from legitimate period items. That we no longer have his contributions is regrettable, but certainly is a personal prerogative that we have to respect.


Jagdtiger74, Thank You for explaining the meaning of the word. It does make sense to me. We have the word idiom, or idiomatic. Which means that although a word actually means one thing - the way it is used can mean something else.

I also very much liked your description of early blade making in Solingen. Which is a topic that I have appreciated for a long time. I have taken the liberty of posting below a hand engraved Solingen made blade from the late 19th century. I know that It has nothing at all to do with this topic. But think that it clearly illustrates some of what you were making reference to.

So please forgive me if I take a minor exception as to the resource requirement for Third Reich blades. As you describe an early blade could be made using hands and relatively minimal equipment. For a more modern blade it is significantly different and could include: drop forging, etching, multiple types of electroplating, machine and hand castings, sometimes anodizing (for aluminum not steel), finishing, threading, and all the other things that went into producing it, with the amount of equipment involved going well beyond the level of early blade making. I’m not at all trying to be critical. Just illustrate that considerable physical resources (in addition to the labor) were required to create the high quality daggers, swords, and bayonets that were made in Solingen during the Third Reich and afterwards.

With My Best Regards To All, FP

@Fred Prinz,

thanks for your answer but i have the feeling that I need to go back to one point.
Of course i am aware of the steps needed to manufacture a blade or a dagger. Even a sophisticated one with etchings, but what i am trying to point out is, that even though we are talking industrial production the whole process can be very dezentrelized, even today. For example next door to where i am living, there is a company specialized in aluminum diecast, one house further there is a company called Punktal that was famous for their razorblades.
Now the point is that making edged weapons, or razores or cuttlery was always dezentrelised. Droppforging was done in one place, sharpening and etching somewere else, putting together in an other place. This was done due to the specialized skills certain companies had. Why am I so sure of that? Because my family is related to Wilhelm Weltersbach (RZM M7/22) and my grand father had a company by the name Bellut und Weltersbach which made manicure sets and hunting knifes after the war. I still remember that we transported raw blades, to the shop, grandpa did the pre sharpening and then the were transported to the next place to have them vernickelt (put the coating on them), then they were picked up again, assembled and sharpend.
For Representative Hunting Daggers, these were brought to another place for the etching.
This all is relevant because it shows that production never really ceased during the war and even after the war, thousands of blades and daggers in various states of their production were confiscated by the americans. And still in most companies here you will find original blades and parts from wartime edged weapons. The company Kronprinz still has some old Panzerschreck Antitankrockets in their warehouse.

To cut a long story short, everything that you wanted to have during the war could be manufactured, as long as you paid for it.
Second, here in Solingen there are still companies manufaturing WW2 edged weapons. Sometimes obviousely as "mock ups" sometimes using old parts and selling them through third persons.
And the only difficult part of the production specially with regars to equipment is the drop forging because those machines are BIG and loud. The rest fits basically in a carport.

Greets JT

Hi RedBaron,

I have an observation which I anticipate that you might relate to, ourselves having similar technical backgrounds:

I would fully expect, in the business of weapons manufcature, or etching as a sub-contracting business with a weapons manufacturer, that the Lettering Artists preparing blade inscriptions would have been told what range of borders and end terminals could be used. Also what type styles and lettering font variations preferred by the company would be allowed.

All the visible "artistic" features that were preferred in that particular establishment - it would be be determined as the “House style”. There would be some variations permitted, in the concept of “artistic interpretation”, but generally speaking they would be consistent within a range of accepted variations.

I submit, therefore, that if a client placed an order with a company for a "presentation" piece, then aspects of the presentation inscription would be discussed and put into process - i.e. penned for the approval of the customer.

A facsimile of the inscription would be prepared and presented to the intending purchaser for "proofing", just like when you order some printing - you have a proof for checking. (I'm talking professional standards here, not the dyslexic outputs of people using digital printers in stationery stores).

I respectfully submit, in addition to the "House style" - that in presenting the pre-etch proof of the intended inscription - that technical, grammatical, and artistic flaws in the inscription would have been identified at this stage, and the errors corrected.

It seems that such a basic level of quality control was not evident in the creation of the Wolf Sword etching (assuming you believe that the Wolf Sword etching is authentic).

Jagdtiger74, I don’t really disagree with a lot of what you say, but I do have a different point of view which I will explain. Before that I have to express my thanks for your insight into business operations in Solingen - before, during, and after the war. I mean that sincerely. Because this is the first time in my memory where we have a chance to discuss what happened, and what is happening now, with someone from the heart of the German blade making world in Solingen itself.

I also did not know that you were as well connected historically to the Solingen blade industry. Which in itself is a valuable asset. From my side I have a somewhat comparable background of industrial experiences, and used to send plating work out to a company that specialized in aerospace work. However anodizing was done in house because it was cheaper. Forgings came in from an outside supplier. But the machining was done in house. But we are not here to discuss manufacturing.

I would agree that even the largest producers in Solingen used some subcontracted components. There is ample evidence that it was done. And that some work could be or was farmed out.

It’s a fact that German industry was chronically short of raw materials. Metal alloys: copper, aluminum, nickel, sometimes steel. Plastics, even leather. The physical evidence is in the daggers made of substitute alloys, thin or no plating. Knife scabbards and early ersatz bayonet frogs. And changes in dagger, bayonet, pistol and machine gun grips and many other items. Series production of dress weapons was terminated early in 1942. After that the only companies that had relatively easy access to raw materials were those who made items for the Wehrmacht. Although I would agree that essentials such as razor blades could be included as well. One dagger maker for example made surgical instruments, so I’m certain that exceptions could be made.

And it’s a fact that all or almost all of the young men and many of the older ones who would have been apprentices or workers were called into military service. Instead factories used to a large extent prisoners, conscripted foreign workers, and women to take their place.

And we know that manufacturing in Solingen did not completely stop until early in January of 1945. Very early. How is that known? Because the combat bayonets for the Wehrmacht were no longer being produced. Some of the reasons are Allied bombing which impacted Solingen production in 1944 and later. And a lot of it had to do with constant air attacks on the German transportation system.

So even if we completely forget the fact that the 1st model dagger was forbidden for a Luftwaffe officer to wear. What actual evidence do we have to show that the dagger in question was made late in 1944?? Certainly not the dagger itself. How do you evaluate something that is not before you? The somewhat hazy images were pulled almost immediately.

I think that if you had money or better yet power (influence) almost anything could be done even in wartime. But only up until a certain point in time.

I’m not trying to start an argument. I hope that I have explained my point of view from my perspective in the spirit in which it is intended. I also sincerely hope that you continue to contribute because it can give all of us who don’t live there extremely valuable insight. Looking forward to your continued postings on the forum.
With My Best Regards, FP

Dear Fred Prinz,

unfortunately my english is not good enough to really rise up to the level of your posts but i am still trying.
You are absolutely right in pointing out the impact of the bombings and the approche of allied forces. Solingen surrendered on the 17 or the 18th of April (not quite sure)and it is obviouse that other matters than dress daggers were of importance during that periode of time.
But one thing has also to be considered, tons of half ready weapons, blades and so on were captured by the americans. Already in april. This is nicely documented in the city archive and was also told to me by my grandpa.
I think we are far beyond discussing the Dagger and talking now more general about what happend to blades and stuff. All I am really trying to point out is, that it is close to impossible to tell on certain pieces when they were faked. Meaning that they were assembled right after the war or even later but with original parts. But since the war was over and Germany was not Nazi Germany anymore they are not original. And it is quite obviouse that even after the war there was a market for "nice souvenirs" from Solingen. I have seen daggers been made from "original parts" only a couple of weeks ago.
This is Solingen, we are not China or Poland. We still have people around that can make a damascus blade with forge and hammer.
And a lot of german collectors tend to collect pieces now that look old and used. Because making something look honestly old is a lot harder than to copy it.
All in all I like this thread a lot, not about the originaly posted sword, because I have never seen it and held it in my hands, which does not allow me to judge whether it is real or not, but it was quite interesting.
And I am just trying to raise the awareness for good fakes!

Greets JT

quote:

Originally posted by Jagdtiger74:


I have seen daggers been made from "original parts" only a couple of weeks ago.
This is Solingen, we are not China or Poland. We still have people around that can make a damascus blade with forge and hammer.

Greets JT

Hi JT and thank you for your contribution in the better understanding about the "life" in Solingen. One of these days I'm hoping to make it there.
You quote that you recently saw daggers being made from original parts.
Do you think you could expand on the subject ?
I would be curious which daggers are presently being faked wityh original parts in Solingen.

Danke Herr !

Pat

Hi Pat,
I saw that one coming
Obviousely this is something that does not happen all over the place. But the real difference is that concerning the parts used, these pieces are original. Worst case the blade is new but made from an old original raw blade. But if you are precice about it, the result is at least not from the period. This very late assembling off pieces is mostly done with daggers. Complete range. But I haven't seen any personalized ones, until now.

Bitte schön

JT

Hope they were not assembling a post war SS Himmler dagger with a smooth tail maker marked.

Pat, I have not seen any recently done personalized swords, but have encountered other earlier examples made after the war. I don’t know if there have been any updates in the last few months or not. But not too long ago I think that it was ‘wotan’ a moderator from another forum who reported what he was seeing at German shows. My best recollection is that there were one or two dealers who had very some very questionable items like etched RAD hewers and I think a couple of other items. My recollection also is that he had some other things to say about the seller(s) which I don’t remember, but they were not favorable.

Something I saw not recently, but perhaps two or three years back was one of the small so called “DJ” knives having an aluminum hilt and stag grips. It had the HJ emblem in the grip, and an etched blade with an Olympic motif and paint filling in the etching. No knives of this configuration have ever been (from reliable sources) reported as being brought back by GI's, they are late postwar.

I would like to post an image, but it’s not my intellectual property, and it was from another source. In the image it can be very clearly seen that the blade has a perfectly done polish typical of many HJ knives. The problem is this: The blade has very obviously been damaged after it was polished. The damage is not just a single defect, but is in multiple locations. The etching is on top of the damage. Not underneath - but on top!! Which means that the one doing the very well executed etching (and painting) had to see that the blade was significantly damaged. In the 1930’s, on a supposed Hitler youth item??

If you reread Jim Atwood’s book he tells of thousands of parts and some assembled items leftover from the war in Solingen. His name has been linked to more than a few postwar creations. He and Roger Steele did not get their postwar blades from China, they came from Germany which is what JT is saying. Regards to you and JT, FP

Thank you Fred for the added informations about the "left over" parts from Solingen.
When I was in Munich 3 years ago, I went to see someone that supposely was assembling post war daggers with a mixture of fake and original parts.
I did meet the man in question and he was indeed selling these post war assembled daggers.
They were indeed made with some left over parts, parts taken from original daggers and parts newly made from the Czech Republic and Solingen.
In all honesty, they could've fooled any new collector starting in the hobby but they never would've fooled anyone with a bit of experience and knowledge.
Actually, the best repros that I have ever seen so far, are the Hirshfangers made by Eickhorn, other than that, just plain juke.
I'm yet to see a perfectly faked SS or SA EM dagger, perhaps a part dagger but not a completely newly made dagger, nooooooooooooo !

The Eickhorn hirschfangers are very good but are easily recognised if you use Houston,s reference on same dont think these were/are made to decieive and deliberate differences to detail incorporated also not made from left overs but all new manufacture but stunning workmanship and worth every penny of the $3-400 they can be found for in Europe if you are a knife collector and not a TR man

Hi FP

Those Olympic DJ knives are still around, I saw some on offer on one of the small dealer sites recently selling for about $900. They were produced by Voos and are often sold in the "original" paper packets. Many of them have corrosion damage... If I remember correctly Wittman had one for sale a while back, can't comment about authenticity though...

Red

AJ, I understand what you are saying and anybody reading Houstons guide should not be caught out,the problem with these postwar Eickhorn hirschfängers is when unscrupulous dealers or collectors change the DJV grip badge for a 3rd Reich DJ grip badge then these are often sold for a lot more money to the unknowing. That in my opinion is the problem with these hirschfängers. I'm sure you and many others on this forum are well aware of this practise and can spot the fakes a mile off, I tend though to re-iterate this problem as many times as I can. Buy only hirschfängers with stamped marks unless you have the experience to know what you are looking at, there are only a couple manufacturers that used a etched mark some of the time.

Gary

Hello Red,
Hmmmmm............. I want to address the matter diplomatically and not get too far away from the blades currently under discussion. I have been involved in the past in discussions about especially the variant HJ/DJ/BDM knives on the appropriate forum. Some of those folks got really irate when certain things were pointed out to them. My purpose here was to give Pat what IMO is a more recent example of what has been reported coming out of Solingen. I personally don’t like them - but others have spent a lot of money buying them which is their prerogative.

We all make mistakes. Sometimes big ones. And sometimes small ones. No one is infallible. On still another forum there was a discussion of an item that had been sold by somebody whose name is well known. It is not anybody who has been mentioned or has participated in this thread. It was a relatively “big ticket” presentation blade. Some loved it. Some thought it was altered.

The discussion went back and forth. Then a recognized expert in the field who knew what he was talking about entered the discussion. He “exploded” the supposed provenance surrounding the item as surely as if he had placed a couple of sticks of dynamite under it.

My point being that not everyone knows everything. And dealers are businessmen. And just like normal businessmen everywhere from used cars to edged weapons. Sometimes items are taken in for sale that turn out to be bad. And I will let it go at that.
Best Regards, FP

Does anybody know the Maker of this blade ?
jim

Jim,

I believe the owner finally stated that the sword blade was an Eickhorn a page or two ago by saying, "And one last thing, the blade IS an Eickhorn." He has not posted a photo of the marking. I do not believe he has said how the dagger blade is marked.

According to the information perceived in this thread (but not confirmed by either Craig Gottlieb or Rob NL) the maker of the blade is believed to be Eickhorn.

However, there is a probnlem with this, as none of the participants seems willing to reveal the precise nature of the trademark.

A most intersting revelation came from Rob NL (current owner of the sword), when he released a photo-image of a letter written by one Arthur Grigg - former owner of the sword who in his description of the piece stated that it was made by Eickhorn, but without the squirrel.

A facsimile of his letter, and detail of the text, is attached to this submission.

Rob NL. Would you care to respond to my previous offer, and also this submission - what is the trademark on the Wolf Sword?

Craig, stop being a wimp and face up to us. After all, you started this with gloating and smugness - where are you now that the challenge is getting harder?

I will append the image in the next submission, it is apparently above the accepted level.

FJS

Heres a clip of Rob nl at work.
Its quite a big file so it takes a little time to load,nats

http://www.heltech.nl/rob/Rob%20Hanneman%20-%20Highlights%202006.divx

Unable to upload image, am seeking assistance

FJS

Hello Nats,

Having watched your movie of Rob NL in action - obviously a supreme kick-boxing champion - I can see why Craig Gottlieb has dropped out of sight. After all, who would want to shaft him with fake merchandise,and then pretend that everything is well.

Rob NL may be ****ed of at me for speaking the truth, but I bet that he is even more annoyed at Craig for having exploited his trust. Better keep running, Craig. You have offended the wrong people.

FJS

Here you go Fred:
If this description is accurate I can see why there's a reluctance to post a picture of it.

Jim M,
Thanks for facilitating the image I was trying to upload. Your assistance is greatly appreciated. If anyone doubts the authenticity of the image, then they can go back to the original (untouched) image on page two of this thread.

Rob NL - do you wish to talk? I am here and available.

Best regards to all.

FJS

To be quite honest, there is something that bothers me about this thread. The way it goes on seems to be somewhat lets say negative and gets a touch that is far beyond some collectors and friends of edged weapons talking about a piece.

Greets JT

There has at times been an unpleasant undercurrent since almost the beginning of the thread which is truly unfortunate. Depending on the time frame it has not necessarily been one sided. In collecting credibility is essential whether you are dealer, collector, or just a participant in a discussion. In fact some say that credibility is everything. I know that I don’t react particularly well if my credibility or sincerity is called into question. And would expect similar reactions from others. But I also think that it’s important to try and be at least halfway civil, so that the focus is on the object being discussed, not on personal differences.

The purpose of the thread ostensibly was to evaluate a sword. It was stated that the sword was an Eickhorn and I think somewhere else it was stated that the etching style was in the manner of an Eickhorn. I never saw a trademark on the blade. It either has a trademark or it does not. And does that match the documentation?

As far as I know the dagger was never attributed to any maker. If there was a maker mark in the image it was not legible. Does it even have one? I don’t know. There was also I think an earlier question asking if the dagger was the one that Craig purchased at the MAX. I don’t know if it is the same dagger or not. (I could be be in error and if so I hope that someone corrects me.) I also have a recollection of a thread about a dispute at the MAX involving a prospective buyer and a dagger. Are they one and the same? It was not a recent discussion, but perhaps the affected individual could be contacted to see if it’s the same dagger. And ask him if it had a maker’s mark and what it was? FP

No maker on the 1st Model Luft, Fred. JR

I believe that Craig confirmed that the 1st Pattern Luftwaffe Dagger in question, and the piece that caused so much upset at last year's MAX Show, are one and the same. See his submission of 1 July, on page 6 of this thread.

Regarding the trademark on the dagger, to the best of my recall it is the Eickhorn 1936-41 version - and NOT the later 1941- version, with the squirrel looking over its shoulder. Logically, for the alleged period of the dagger award, I would have thought that the late period marking would have been more appropriate for the piece.

No other information on the marking on the Wolf Sword, other than the odd comment by Arthur Grigg "Eickhorn, but without the squirrel".

I can only hope that excitability about these items has died down, and that they can be discussed calmly and rationally.

FJS

quote:

Originally posted by JR:
No maker on the 1st Model Luft, Fred. JR

Sorry for the dumb question but how do we know that it is an Eickhorn if there are no trademark ?
Are there some special features on such a sword, unique only to Eickhorn that can be determined ?

Terra Incognita !

Pat

There are squirrel paw prints all over the blade

On a serious note I think the sword is an Eickhorn whilst the 1st model luft dagger has no maker mark

Jonathan

Is there agreement that neither blade has a trademark? Or is it just the word Eickhorn stamped or etched into the blade without the squirrel?

As for the dagger, now the pieces are beginning to fit into place. I went back to page six and sure enough it was the “MAX” dagger. I don’t know why I didn’t quite make the connection. I wasn’t there, and don’t offhand remember all of the details, but it did generate some heavy duty bad feelings. Likewise for the 1st model dagger, offhand I can’t see why it would not have a trademark to advertise the company's capabilities. On some high quality Imperial era blades a trademark might be missing (not a lot but it does happen). But during the Third Reich? Something to ponder. FP

Pondering: Now if it has paw prints from a squirrel hmmmm...............

I don't ever recall seeing an Eickhorn produced WWII Dagger without the Eickhorn TM. Unlike Horster, who was very liberal with producing daggers without the Horster TM, Eickhorn seemed unlikely to do this deed.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

again as a no dagger, sword man, all one can deduce from the facts provided by very well studied men, is the sword and the dagger must be concidered as very spurious. I am sure Craig thinks they are real. His integrity I would not doubt. Having said this in his defence - defence dose not accord with any form of collusion in fakery. From my perspective of awards, these two pieces would cause me great concern.

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that the purchaser return the pieces to the seller, then they would be held untill such timer as the truth be known. The seller who he may be, will refund the price, less 10 percent, this would hold the deal. Subsequently the research will give the provinance. The purchaser will have the unquestionable piece, the seller will have the position of TOTAL UNQUESTIONABLITY, a possition to be envidied. I am sure this is what both parties would like to see. It would give the field open to the experts to prove the POINT.

At first I was not quite sure as to soundness of Christopher J. Ailsby’s suggestion. Then the more that I thought of it - the more I began to change my mind. I can understand having an attachment to certain artifacts. A very good friend of mine is an advanced collector in several areas. On more than one occasion, with especially treasured items, he has stated that he will only let go of the item when he passes away. He may have been joking - but in the years I have known him he has never shown any inclination to sell or trade those items. I very seriously doubt, however, that knowing that an item had a cloud of doubt over it would help his enjoyment of the piece.

A win-win situation I think for Rob as the purchaser would be establishing that an item was genuine. And if there was doubt - the return of his investment would allow him to acquire other items instead, as he wished. To give him the peace of mind that he was making the right decision - no matter which way it turns out. There would be an independent appraisal of the items by those with no connection to them. And by allowing anyone, including the seller, to contribute would assure an even handed outcome.

Likewise for Craig. An independent full appraisal would allow him the opportunity to contribute the full extent of his expertise. And if he is proven right it would only add to his reputation. And if the items are proven to not be period, or there is still doubt for some reason. He has the opportunity to make it right and continue to earn the trust of those that he deals with, and has dealt with in the past.

While this is only my humble opinion. I think that such a proposal is a fairly elegant way to resolve the matters at hand. Most Respectfully, FP

You have to be a real dope to spend any money with Craig,Honestly his mistakes are a Bit grandiose and Public,and for my money they are Way to frequent.UH oh...I said something bad and its going to be deleted.......why?...To protect someone? I dunno

Now Tom, let's think about this a minute. Whether or not you respect Craig's ability or business, he DID create this monster we all frequent on a daily basis.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria