UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Police Uniforms Forum Teno Insignia Set

Dear hpt / Hugh Page Taylor ... It's wonderful that you & Jack Angolia are finishing up Vol. 2 of your "Uniforms, Organization & History of the German Police" series - & hopefully there will be a Vol. 3, and more! There is a great deal of Collector interest in the Polizei - an all new books are welcomed references.

It is very pleasing (& historically correct) for the TN to have a place (however small it may be) in your new Police book.

Collectors are only now coming to realize that the TN were 'Police' (1st as hilfspolizei)- long before the Mai 19, 1943 TN-Police formation, which many know about.(Only through historically knowledgeable writers does this information come forth.)

Regarding the FAD Cuff Title - so little is really known about the early ('30-'35) TN. This FAD Item was a '1st Knowledge' for me - so I have no Answer. (I knew that FAD preceded the RAD, and that the TN was involved in the FAD, but that was about it!) Perhaps Andreas Lindhardt's book - "TN in the Weimar Republic" can offer some insights?

This GDC TN Insignia thread, started by Bernd, has the most in depth TN Image & knowledge base of that found anywhere! (I know, as I 'seek out' any new TN data). "IF" there is a particular TN Item which you'd like to use for your new book, I feel certain that most of this thread's Posting members would be pleased to assist you.

I is only through the 'sharing' of our TR Treasures, that the Collecting Community has the ultimate benefit - & I think that is what we'd all like to see, IMHO. ...Txs, Dave/dblmed

Thanks Raymond and Dave

I feel very privileged to have been admitted to this small group of TN enthusiasts: you seem to form a sort of group all on your own, interested in a specialised subject and happy to share your knowledge.

It's a tough call to come in now after David Littlejohn's 75-page chapter on the TN in Bender's "Defending the Reich". I drafted the historical and organizational text back in 2002 but only came to "attack" the subject a few months ago, when it became clear that it would fit in well in Volume 2 of our German Police series. It has always been a pet subject of mine, perhaps because an original 1 April 1940 "Dienstkleidung der Technischen Nothilfe" wall chart looks down at me as I work.

As can be imagined, a lot of work had to be done to incorporate all "fresh" data found since 2002. David Littlejohn's was not so detailed on history and organization, but he (or our expert friend in Holland who finished the chapter after his death) did go to town on uniforms and insignia.

So stumbling upon this thread was a real breakthrough and I appreciate Dave's call to contributors to let us make this coverage as good as we can by allowing us to use their material.

Enough blurb.

The 1st question remains outstanding.

So here's the 2nd:

How accurate is the Knoetel Tafel 41 in "Uniformfibel"?
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I have the advantage of owning an original of this booklet and appreciate problems anyone may have if they have to rely on page 475 of "Defending the Reich".

Why are the other ranks spelled out, but not the officers?

Beauftragter der Landesleitung is an appointment, not a rank.

As are the generic Fuehrer des Dienstes.

Is Littlejohn correct in giving Landesleiter, Abteilungsleiter, stellvertretende Reichsleiter and Reichsleiter? Why did Knoetel ignore them?

So what were the officer ranks at the time Knoetel drew this plate (Fall or early winter 1933 one assumes by the December 1933 date of publication, allowing for production time).

Knoetel shows two shoulder boards for officers, but without giving their ranks. The upper one presumably came with stars.

And finally, note that Knoetel shows a large oval badge on the left upper sleeve (yet Littlejohn refers to "a TN symbol on the breast" - clearly missing from Knoetel's plate).

There's a lot more one can say about that plate, but how accurate was it?

Best wishes to all TN-enthusiasts.

hpt

Dear hpt.... Great Questions, but I am short on any definitive answers to the Knoetel questions.

I am trying to acquire copies of the TN Magazine, "Die Raeder" from 1932-33, in order to try to solve these early uniform & insignia questions. (The oldest that I have yet been able to find is from 12/1935 - so it's not old enough to help with your question though.)

Bernd O, Doug O, Ernst H, Jiri Libal, Gary9 and many of the other TN & Police Collectors may have a much better handle on this than I do.

Littlejohn describes, but does not Show, the 1st TN insignia - as being an Oval (for both the Visor & the left Sleeve)- and then quickly moves on. DougO showed us his spectacular early TN Metal Logo / Wreath on his early TN visor - that was quite an eye opener & a learning experience.

I don't know what that 'TN Oval' looks like for this early time frame - 1933 - but I'd really like to see it - as would we all! Might it have something to do with the 'breast oval' in bullion, which was posted? Perhaps, as that nice TN piece is unidentified. (RonR posted another example of it on the WAF TN Uniform thread - so it is not a '1 of' item.)

The (unknown) manufacturer's metal TN insignia board, which I posted early on, has insignia from, what I believe is, 1934 forward.I base this upon the bottom row center device, which mirrors the TN Logo which was authorized in 1934 - and which is the same as the center of DougO's metal Kockade. (The date of the board is just my opinion, as it is not dated.)

More Technische Nothilfe mysteries - which hopefully you will solve for us! ...Txs, Dave/dblmed

Thanks for your input Dave; your help is proving invaluable to doing justice to the TN in my next book on the Police with Jack for Roger.

Although we're not making much progress in solving many problems with this thread, I'll plough on and here's the next question.

TN Badge for graduates of the TN National Schools
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There were two schools, one at Belzig the other Dresden.

The Dresden school is not mentioned in the 1 April 1940 dress reegulations, so one may assume it had been shut down by then. Can anyone give the dates the two schools were opened, and precisely when that in Dresden was closed?

But when was the Tyr-rune badge for having attended a course at these schools introduced? Littlejohn in "Defending the Reich" (page 511)says from April 1933 members of the schools' staff wore the badge with a crimson edging. But sadly David gave no source for this.

I'd certainly have said it was introduced prior to 1936, as the "Organisationsbuecher" for that year show the same devices for the SA, etc. and I'd guess that introduction was at about the same time for the various organizations (Party and otherwise) that adopted the "arrow" as their symbol for having attended a course.

hpt

Pressing on with TN questions and, further to my post of the 23rd of this month, let's concentrate on an interesting detail in Knoetel's "Tafel 41" of December 1933, the "Freiwillige Arbeitsdienst" (or, according to Littlejohn, "Freiw.Arb.Dienst") cuffband.

As the TN's involvement with the FAD ended on 6 January 1933, that is before Hitler came to power, how is it that the "FAD" cuffband was shown being worn during the 3rd Reich?! I see two possibilities: a) that Knoetel illustrated a uniform detail introduced in 1932 but which ceased to be worn in early January 1933, or b) that cuffband was worn as a commemorative.

Can anyone out there solve this Problem? I think a) is more likely and certainly places the accuracy of Knoetel's illustrations in doubt.

hpt

Hpt have you tried posting these unanswered questions at this web site, they are pretty knowledgable here

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=38&sid=c0d...8da85656017b8e87d3e0

Thanks for the tip Gary, I may try that (but am so short of time at the moment as I am now fully immersed in the TN chapter of my next book!)

I thought this Forum was the best suited, as these are all uniform and insignia questions.

Sadly so far we have not made much progress.


hpt

Further to my post of 29 March, I may have done the artist Knoettel an injustice over the "Freiwillige Arbeitsdienst" cuffband. Although it was ordered that the TN should stop administering the FAD in early January 1933, given the size and complexity of their involvement that took time and official records show that they remained involved into 1934.

So that cuffband could, presumably and with all due caveats, have been worn after Hitler came to power at the end of January 1933.

hpt

In January 1942 the OKH authorized a commemorative badge to be worn on Army uniform by those who had joined their technical units from the TN.

Word has it that this badge was withdrawn from wear two years later, in January 1944.

I am looking for chapter and verse on that withdrawal order: precise date, reference, etc.

Incidentally, I know of four (4) variations of that badge. Were there more? Was there a Luftwaffe version I wonder? The mind boggles.

I aim to illustrate all 4 of the known Heer patterns in our chapter on the TN, but would really like to resolve the issue of the order withdrawing the badge from wear.

Thanks.

hpt

Dear HPT...

TN-to-Heer 1942-1944 Patch - Wow... More great information! I was aware of only 3 cloth badges / patches:

a) Green w Aluminum Thread - ? for prior TN Officers
b) Green w Gray Thread - ? for prior TN NCO's & Men
c) Green & Brown Embroidered - as in the H. Kelly patch in Littlejohn

d) 4th Type - will be a surprise, in you Book!

Also, in the LJ Book - the photo shows the Color incorrectly as almost Black (to my eye) when it is correctly a dark green. (Was probably just poor lighting for the Photo.)

In my collecting experience - the TN-to-Heer '42-44 style of Green w Aluminum Thread, seems to be the most frequently found. (I better read back through the thread to see if a Gray Thread one in here.)

1944 Date - Unfortunately, I am not aware of where it is found in the TR period regulations.

We're all looking forward to your new book!!

Txs, Dave/dblmed

I'm glad to be stimulating activity in the grey cells... and hope to get some of the outstanding questions answered before we go to press.

I'm completing my coverage of the TN and will get this off to RJB as soon as possible. This will be the final chapter in Volume 2, so publication should not be far away now.

I can understand the interest in the TN, it is a fascinating subject.

hpt

Looks like the former DDR-NVA used the TENO cog wheel in this skill/trade sleeve patch .

I just got this nice looking TENO armband in the mail .

Close-up of the center bevo weave .

...and it's interesting backside weave .

..and under the seam overlap you can see the 'ges.gesch. H & P ' . Does anybody know what 'H & P ' stands for ???. Thanks , Bernd .

Bernd - Another Great TN Item for your Super Collection! These Red & Black Logo on the White Cloth (? Cotton) TN Armbindes are certainly the most attractive - IMO.

If you 'peek' under the sewn line - I 'believe' that you will find that the maker is "H & F" - But, I do Not know what company that represents. (It seems that this model TN Armbinde was either made by H & F, or is unmarked. I've seen about 20 of these in person, and from reviewing Net Photos - these are the only 2 'maker variations' which I have yet seen.(IF it does turn out to be "H & P" - then you have a very Rare maker!

The Dark Green TN Armband (both with - & without - the sewn on Blue Cap Eagle Triangle Patch) seems to almost always be maker marked by "B & W" or is Un-Marked. Again, I do not know what it means or who was the manufacturer.

Hopefully - some of the other guys on the Forum may know who is:H & F ...&...B & W

That would be more super TN information!(Or maybe, we will find this out in the Technische Nothilfe Chapter in the, soon to be published, Angolia & Taylor Book, Vol. 2 of their "Police" Series? I have great expectations of the book.

.....Txs, Dave / dblmed

Sorry to disappoint, Dave, but you won't find the ID of these two manufacturers in my next book!

I have checked all issues of "Die Raeder" available to me (which carry ads. for uniform/insignia manufacturters), but there is nothing to explain who H & F and B & W were.

Perhaps the RZM journals hold the key and I'll have a look.

I've caught the "TN bug" thanks to this thread (and especially Dave's input) and hope to have done justice to what is a fascinating subject in my coverage in Volume 2 of my book with Jack for Roger.

Thanks to all who have been so helpful and generous - with their time, knowledge and wonderful collections.

hpt

I'm trying to build up a list for publication of the locations of TN.-Ortsgruppen as indicated on the collar patch: that is the town that corresponds to the Roman/Arabic combination, such as in Robert Noss's post of 25 June last year:

VII/2 = Starnberg

I'm sure collectors and anyone interested in the TN would welcome such a reference.

The best sources appear to be rubber stamps on documents and armbands, correspondence (envelopes, letters and postcards) and ID documents.

Thanks for any help in what I see as a worthy and worthwhile cause!

hpt

This will be a huge undertaking but one that would be greatly appreciated. I will make a note of any info I come across and post it here.

Yes, it would be a huge project.

Not only were there some 1,800 Ortsgruppen by the end of WW2, but also changes in the life of the TN (1919 - 1945), such as in the Landesbezirke/Landesleitungen/Landesgruppen/Bereiche, means that Ortsgruppen numbers also changed over the years and so a proper study would involve a timeline.

But such a list would be a great asset to TN collectors: the ability to identify the location of a uniform from the numerals on the collar patch! That would be neat.

Something of a pipe dream, I fear, but I'll do what I can and naturally share it with this Forum.

hpt

Yes, it would be a huge project.

Not only were there some 1,800 TN.-Ortsgruppen by 1942, but changes in the organization of the TN during its life (1919 - 1945) would require a meaningful study to be based on a timeline. There were changes in the Landesbezirke/ Landesleitungen/Landesgruppen/Bereiche and as their numerals were linked with those of the Ortgruppen, these changes would also have to be taken into account.

But such a list would be helpful to TN collectors, who would be able to look up a uniform, badge or document and find the geographical origin.

I fear this is a pipe dream, but I'll do my best and naturally share my findings with this Forum.

hpt

Dear hpt, that sounds terrific!

It is difficult enough to even find the TN Collar Tabs. Then not knowing for sure what the Roman & Arabic numerals really stand for - is also a bit frustrating.

Sounds like we need to ID 'where' we find the Landes/Orts Number information (Armband Stamping, ID Books, Photos, etc.) - as well as the time frame, if known?

Even your 'short' list is better than the NO List, which is what TN/TeNo Collectors currently face.

Plus a short list - will only grow longer & that is a nice plus in the TN knowledge base.

When do you 'guesstimate' that Vol. 2 of the German "Police Series" will be on the bookshelves?

Keep up the research and great work!
Txs, Dave/dblmed

Roger Bender is finishing off Volume 2 in our "The German Police" series now, and I have only to let him have some appendices, the new bibliography and list of acknowldements - which I'll send in a few days.

Thanks to Dave and other supporters of this Forum the TN chapter will be HUGE. But we also cover uniforms and insignia, the Schupo, Verkehrspolizei, Gemeindepolizei and Gendarmerie in this one.

I'd estimate publication this summer, but will check with Roger and keep the Forum posted. We really appreciate the interest and support!

Thanks for your interest.

hpt

At a small gun show this last weekend in Belleville, IL., I found this Teno Officer's sidecap bevo eagle . It has bright silver thread.

,,and a close-up .

..and closer.

..and a shot of the backside . The photos do NOT show how bright actual the silver thread still is .

Bernd.... Nice TeNo / TN Cap Eagle...

They really are artistic up close.
Unlike the Blue Sleeve Eagle, it seems like there is only one (blue) variation - but there are more to find!

Supposedly, there is a 'golden' thread Dark Blue TN cap eagle also. I saw one on a German site a few months back (on a TN Side Cap) - but the Eagle condition was so bad, that I passed on it. (I may regret it, if another one doesn't turn up!)

I'm very excited about the Hugh Taylor / J. Angolia TeNo Chapter in their "Police Vol. 2" as some 'rare' birds are supposed to be shown. Hopefully, we'll see a lot of 'New' TN Items (as we did with Littlejohn's "Defending the Reich.) Txs, Dave/dblmed

I'm delighted to say that our coverage of the TN in Volume 2 of "The German Police" will now have an appendix with over 500 TN.-Ortsgruppen identified, with their respective parent TN.-Landesgruppen and location.

This is a great step forward and includes ALL Ortsgruppen at 1 May 1934.

Such lists obviously exist for other dates, but have so far eluded us.

I'd also like to be able to fill in the respective TN.-Bezirksgruppen (the intermediate level of command between 8 of the 15 LG and their constituent OG), but that will have to wait for Volume 3.

If anyone can contribute Ortsgruppen IDs (i.e. with parent LG and town/village name) I'd be most grateful and this will of course be shared with all.

hpt

New TeNo photo in

Gary, That is definitely a 'WOW' TeNo / TN Photo!

This is the type of photo which REALLY Shows us a lot! Close Up photos of the late war TN-Police uniforms & insignia are definitely hard to find.

What I see in your wonderful photo (IMO) is:

1) The date 'range' is after the May 19, 1943 3rd TN "Rank/Boards' Change. (So, it's late war as it took MANY Months for the TN to get this style to all of the TN / TN-Police units spread out all over Europe. I personally 'believe' that some units didn't receive these Tab/Boards until late 1943, and 'possibly' not until early 1944, IMO only.)
2) The 'SS Style' collar tabs (dual matching) for the TN are shown.
3) The beautiful (and so 'Rare' to find) TeNo magic "Black Eagle" EM/NCO patch is well shown - and it's close up!
4) The Shoulder Boards show up nicely. I want to 'belive' that I can see that there is a coloration difference between what appears to be 'Black' Centers on them (as Compared to the Collar Tabs). I am definitely leaning toward a conclusion that a Brown SB centering color was used. But, for a definite answer - we'll need to await the Vol. 2 Police Book.
5) The uniform appears to conform with the Police / TN-Police Tunic of that '19 43' era. Standard painted buttons - no TeNo logo buttons. Pleated breast pockets with the scallop 'V' of the pocket flap @ the center, for the button hole.
6) Cap is the M-43 type (with 2 buttons) & the Polizei Eagle cap patch has the wreath just 'peeking' out above the flap.

Gary, it is a WOW photo! Thanks for sharing. Dave/dblmed

A very interesting photo indeed of an Oberwachtmeister der TN. Must have been taken after 1 June 1943 in accordance with RdErl. d. RFSSuChdDtPol. im RMdI vom 19. Mai 1943 - O-Kdo g 4 (P 1a) 115/42.

It looks to me like this old fellow (who looks a bit too fragile to have been of much use in performing the TN's demanding duties) knocked up those collar patches himself as they are too long and narrow and the pips are not positioned in the centre of the patches as they should have been.

The shoulder boards look OK, but it is hard to tell whether the interior braids are brown as they should have been and the underlay black.

There were indeed delays in distributing the June 1943 insignia and some TN personnel had still not received them by the end of the war. Odd in this case that the sleeve eagle and shoulder boards appear to have been regulation, but not the collar patches. Part of the chaos and confusion in the latter stages of the war.

Gary: can you put a place and a date to this photo? A really great document and thanks for sharing it with us.

hpt

Hi Hugh, RE: Gary's super late war Foto:

Just some thoughts, and also IMO:

"It looks to me like this old fellow (who looks a bit too fragile to have been of much use in performing the TN's demanding duties)" - Yet, it's True - BUT the TN Men were Technical Specialists. So, this fellow 'may' have possessed a special set of skills, which were not diminished by his age.

"(he) knocked up those collar patches himself as they are too long and narrow and the pips are not positioned in the centre of the patches as they should have been." Also True, BUT even the SS were known to have 'field made' some of their Collar Tabs (Patches)- so, the same could reasonably have taken place with the TN.

My 'belief' is that there was a logistical nightmare, with regards to supplying the 'required' June 1, 1943 TN insignia. As a result of this, a number of the TN personnel were required (or just did it) to make whatever changes that they could (and based upon whatever materials were locally available.)

I wouldn't even be surprised to see Fotos of 1940-42 TN Insignia being worn - without the COGS, in an attempt to have the Collar Tabs (Patches) appear to be more 'SS Like.' Just my Opinion. Txs, Dave/dblmed

Dave

What you say is true.

Your comment about the collar patches reminds me of Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS veterans I interviewed many moons ago who had both cut collar patch insignia out of sardine cans. Anything was possible in those days.

I'd still be interested to know if Gary can give us a date for that interesting photo of his.

Best wishes to all TN enthusiasts - I'm off to the Milan "Militalia" fair next week and will be keeping my eyes open for Polizei and especially TN items.

hpt

Unfortunately, no date and no name.

Gray, great photo.
Here are a few pixs of the two overseas hats I picked up recently. First is a blue one similar to the other I posted.

Side view.

Interior. It's marked with the TeNo emblem but it's faint.

# tag. Would have been nice if it were named.