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Herman,

There are no educated or real answers on the Himmler dedication daggers. Even the original 200 number is not substantiated by proof. Where it came from .... nobody is certain.

I would not know how many are accounted for today in collections. 86? .. 134? .. 212? .. ?

I do know that long term collectors and dealers feel that the 200 is low because they have seen enough over the years to suggest that more were made , and because some unissued examples were found at the end of the war.

How many were made, if any ? Your estimate is as good good as anyone else's. The "community" has not agreed on any number

Dave

PS you really should buy that SS book of Wittmann's

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As to how good the fakes are getting, can anyone post a pic from a dealer's website & say that it is good in his opinion? Or not? Or would one actually have to have the Rohm or Himmler dagger in hand to tell whether it was good or not? How good are the fakes really?

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How good are they getting?
I would suggest checking out the "Rohm" forum and you will see the low grade ones first hand.
Honestly, they are getting good enough that I am no longer in the market for a Rohm or Himmler. I ALMOST paid a TON of $$$ for one last year, but after seeing how COMMON these RARE daggers are... I cannot get over the oxy-moron!
I mean how COMMON can an EXTREMELY RARE dagger be???????????? Confused Confused Confused Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


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Ok, I am going to chime in now.

I have been in toolmaking & automotive MFG for the past 14 years as a toolmaker and now a tooling engineer. I can 100% say with out a doubt if I had the funds I could manufacture ANY TR dagger to the EXACT specks and would fool any seasoned collector. Case and point, ever look at a cars steering wheel up close? If you have ever seen the inside of one it would blow you mind away! I managed the 2007 Honda Acura steering wheel tooling program. The tooling package to build the die cast hubcore, over molding, plastic injecting tools was around $400,000.00 not counting the assembly equipment, etc. Very complicated and the details are insane! So a simple dagger would not be a problem to reproduce, it would just cost a mint and one could never justify spending the capital to sell daggers. Too small of a market.

With current technology, scanners to scan part sizes, CNC machining, CMM measuring equipment, acid etching shops,

Tooling cost est:

Tang nut CNC machining $10.00 each
CNC program development $300.00

1 upper cross guard Pattern $1200.00
Foundry cost per 1000 15.00 each
1 lower cross guard* $1500.00
Foundry cost per 1000 18.00 each

1 rune button stamping die $7500 Enamel work?

1 eagle stamping die $12000

1 wood grip* CNC machining $100 each
CNC program development and tooling $7000

1 blade drop forging cost? Blanking die $18000
CNC wet grinder per 1000 $25.00 each blade

1 master acid template (development) $3000
Acid etching est per 1000 $100 each.

1 scabbard shell - 2 parts* Progressive die $28000
1 upper fitting - 2 parts* progressive die $22000
1 lower fitting - 2 parts progressive die $18000
1 brazing machine $30000

1 carrying assembly - 2 parts purchased item
1 throatpiece assembly - 6 parts* stamping dies $40000
2 upper screws purchased item $5-$8 each depending on volume
2 lower screws purchased item $5-$8 each depending on volume

Forgot lead weight die casting tooling $23000

Tooling cost $211,200.00

Not to mention the QC check fixtures, drill jigs, labor, plating cost!

So you can clearly see it could be done, but only Bill Gates could afford it!

I could just develop some SS blades w/ Himmler inscriptions that could fool most people but I would have to sell around 1000 to brake even!

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But I thought you take a real one & just put the fake inscription on it. So you don't have to reproduce thw whole thing. Bill Gates or not, apparently someone is doing it.

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Yes you could, but it would not be easy or cheap. To get it right you would have to buy an orignal, scan the ecthing make a master pattern, test the pattern, burn time, make adjustments, buy a real SS dagger grind the blade and burn the new dedication etch. I would bet my entire collection that there are more fakes out than the originals! Prove me worng!

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Relax boys! They have been trying for years to get it right and it just doesn't happen. NONE of the original tooling, polishing techniques and steel is available to the fakers to make it happen. They just can't make them the way they used to do it. So relax and enjoy looking at enough originals so that when you are ready to buy and have a chance at an original, you will be able to jump on it and sleep with it at night.
Ron Weinand
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Houston Coates:
I agree with Ron--you guys are pushing the panic button. It's getting harder- but when it comes to a "standard" dagger -there are NO perfect fakes. There are always a number of red flags. I have never seen any fake standard daggers that I even considered to be close to perfect. If you don't know what the red flags are-you are in big trouble and all of them are not listed in the books.

---------------------------------------------

I can only agree with Ron, Dave and Houston on this one.
I have never seen a "perfect" faked dagger, unless you don't know what to look for.
I'm not an expert by any means but did specialise into a few areas, mainly in the Chained NSKK and SA Rohm. I have seen hundreds of Chained NSKK and SA Rohms at the Max and the SOS shows and I'm yet to see a perfect fake.
The simple truth is that THEY DO NOT EXIST.
New collectors shouldn't be scared away by the comments made in this thread. I don't think that it is beneficial to the collecting community as a whole.
Of course the faked daggers are getting better but they are still light years from any originals.
Here,s a simple question : " Can anyone out there show me a perfect faked SS EM ? "
Trust me, you are not going to get any replies on this one simply 'cause they do not exist.
The things that's get people all mixed up is when they are using original parts with post-war components. This is where it get's a bit more difficult but when you know your stuff.............NO WAY !

In conclusion, don't be afraid to buy any daggers. Just learn and know your stuff and you won't get burned.

Now, where's that picture of that perfect post-war SS dagger ? Big Grin

Personally, I think that the biggest threat in our hobby are the "parts daggers", there are many around and many are impossible to spot but at least, all parts are original. Wink

.

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Looks like the day of the slabbed dagger may be coming.

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at the military odyssey show last weekend a belgium dealer had rohm and himmler ss daggers which were all but perfect fakes ,i say fakes as he insisted they were genuine ,the only thing that gave them away to my eyes were the ss buttons ,the metal being a silver rather then a softer nickel colour, the new condition and the fact that he had several of each. i saw the same daggers on a british dealers table at the war and peace show but he admited that they were copies. once they are aged ?

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Nickn

Perhaps the Himmlers and Rohms you saw were from the same source as the fake selection I was offered a while back, also mostly Rohms and Himmlers in any state of aging as required. The ones I saw were mostly minty, but a little too pristine, especially the grips, but superb indeed. Do you recall what they were asking for the Himmlers and Rohms?

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I'm yet to see a perfect fake Rohm dagger.
Joe's latest SA Rohm by Eickhorn was perhaps one of the better made fakes that I have seen in years but still, an obvious fake once you get to the minute details.
Trust me, there's no Rohm fakes out there that can fool someone who has done his homework.
It is just impossible for anyone to be able to make such a dagger to perfection.

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quote:
I'm yet to see a perfect fake Rohm dagger.



A successful deception is one that is never discovered by those who are deceived. So how would the "perfect fake" ever be known unless the faker announces their accomplishment?

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Red,

Give us more details on the blades you saw and the guy who was selling them. Sounds interesting.

Von Rader,

You hit the nail on the head. I've been trying to say the same thing but I did not think of trying to lay out the tooling costs. When you look at a basic SA or SS dagger the 13 parts themselves are not that complex but they were made in huge numbers on expensive dedicated tooling. Then there are the 4 parts of the basic single strap hanger.

Then there is assembly and finishing. In another thread we have seen a bad attempt at re-anodizing a scabbard. I have never seen a 100% correct redo Big Grin

I have seen attempts at faking all the parts (or substituting new parts like screws) and to an experienced collector, they do not pass the test. The same probably applies to other daggers and I know it applies to any valuable antique. I read about how some jeeps have been modified to resemble early WWII models but they don't fool the experienced guy.

The key word is EXPERIENCED, and Pat got that one right. He has looked at many many NSKK and Rohm daggers and knows his stuff as concerns these.

My advice - If you don't have experience, then make friends with someone who has.

Dave

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Big Grin
This must be some kind of joke: what does a steering wheel of a today car has to do with a TR dagger that was made 70 years ago?

The MCSARR list shows us 240 different producers of standard SA daggers. Do you think all those small companies invested the amound of the equivalent of 200k $ some 70 years ago, in order to make some daggers? Yes, they bought parts from other companies? Of course, fakers also use original parts, as we all know.

VonRader,
I have a copy of your very interesting book, showing complex, close to perfect(but postwar) etches on original TR dress bayonets. You, above all the other members here, should know how easy the Röhm and Himmmler dedications can be 100% perfectly reproduced on original blades.

I am not surprised that a few members here are doing their best to "restore trust" and "try to support the business of super rare daggers" that every dealer is currently offering... I know that a lot of money is involved... Wink

The Chinese are currently making damn good copies of K98 combat bayonets, an original K98 is worth about 100$, but they take the effort to make a copy!

Last weekend, I visited a blacksmith, he makes medieval swords the exact way it was done 1000 years ago and he sells them for around 1000 EUR per sword. Don't tell me that there are no artisans in this world, who can make daggers the way it was done 70 years ago for 3000 $ a piece. No this blacksmidt does not make steerings wheels for a today Honda, that is correct... Big Grin

Best greetings,

Herman


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To all those who insist there are perfect fakes that can not be detected-How then do you know they are fakes? Big Grin If this is such a problem--have you sold everything? Have you stopped collecting? Or--have you limited yourself to WHW . items? Razz Confused Big Grin Wink Cool Roll Eyes P.S.--I ain't a'quittin. Not never-no how.


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Ron, your statement of "NONE of the original tooling, polishing techniques and steel is available to the fakers to make it happen"

Sorry you are totally wrong! Toolmakers use the exact same techniques today to grind, polish, and steel is steel. Any material can be alloyed poured and forged. I was trained by WW2 Vets that were toolmakers so I know that the techniques have NOT changed only the technology. Polishing is a bit of an art but the methods are the same. I worked in a foundry for 1 year as an engineer.

Herr Mann No joke, my point is that ANYTHING can be reproduced! If I can build a very complicated steering wheel why could I not tool up to reproduce TR daggers? The technology is there folks! This is not space shuttle stuff! Making a bunch of fake TR daggers to every exact detail would cost a major mint, you would loose your arss if you tooled up for it. One thing that is VERY hard to fake is patina and age. The trained eye can spot chemical, or other accelerated aging processes.

Best way to not get burnt is go to shows, build a relationship with veteran collectors (thanks Houston) and ask lots of questions.

I will keep collecting! I'm totally hooked

PS I never wrote a book, only a Undergrad Thesis (it was a novel!)

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I still don't think the question is answered. The consensus is - no one can successfully reprodoce the whole Rohm or Himmler dagger from scratch - it is too costly. The difference of opinion is whether one can take an original dagger & add an inscription such that you can't tell a fake from a real one. I don't know one that one can or can't. The fact that the possibility exists is troubling - even if 80% say it can't be done & only 20% say it can. This would not make me give up TR collecting - just Rohm & Himmler daggers.

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And like Johnny v. said - "How common can an extremely rare dagger be?"

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Herman,

You are perhaps a very experienced collector with much information to share. Why not tell us who you are so we know who we are speaking with ?

Dave

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For those believing that a perfect faked SS Himmler and a perfect faked SA Rohm DOES EXIST, please, show us some pics. Roll Eyes
I have never, ever seen a 99% perfect SS Himmler or SA Rohm.
Of course, some will say that they are so perfect that none of us will be able to tell the difference. Well, if this is the case, why bother proving that they are fake then since they are identical to any original pre-1945 dagger ? Razz
Words and unproven theories does not mean much to me without any hard fact evidence that a perfect faked SS Himmler and SA Rohm do indeed exist.
As I've said many times, show us some evidence.
How can we seriously think that such a perfect post-war blade does exist if no one has any proven evidence ? Confused Please, let's be serious guys for just a minute. Wink

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Well said JR Big Grin

Of course this exact problem of enhanced SA/SS blades emphasises the value of the experience and specialised collectors that post here. Yes, there are supurb fakes and enhancements that WILL fool many less seasoned collectors. As always there are red flags that can be detected, hence the importance of this Forum and the opinions of experienced collectors.

The point for me is that there are good fakes out there, experience and scrutenised opinion is our best defense. I too will never throw in the towel on collecting, however I find myself relying more and more on the folks here...

The enhanced SS/SA fakes I saw are produced in CZ, they are VERY good, but not perfect obviously... their Maker Marks were off which was an obvious alert for me, other collectors might pick up on something else, however many fakes are sold online today, so how much scrutiny can we really apply from pics alone...

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Pat,

Every serious dealer KNOWS FOR A FACT! that the Röhm and Himmler inscriptions can be reproduced in a way that you cannot distinguisch them from originals: that is why soo many full Röhms SS/SA's and Himmlers are offered (and sold!) by those same dealers!

You will have to reread the complete topic: the proof that the perfect copies exist lays in the fact that SUPER RARE DAGGERS CAN BE BOUGHT EVERYWHERE, THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE IF THEY WERE INDEED SUPER RARE!
PICTURES ARE NO PROOF HERE!

As you said earlier, you can consider it not being an issue, because there is no difference with the real ones, but in the long term the value of this type of daggers will go dawn significantly... Are you ready to pay 15000 $ or more for a fairly common dagger like the SS Himmler of which 10000 were made (as Ron has learned us)? What if in 10 years from now, 20000 will exist? Wink
An investing tip might be: if you own any of these daggers, sell them as fast as you (still) can, this is just my opinion of course... Wink

Do you really think, that it is that difficult to get the 30 letters of the inscription rightly etched on a period blade? If that is the case, buy a copy of Wayne Techet's book on TR dress bayonets and you will be amased! Wink

Never heard of the sales trick with "the bad and the good copy"? Maybe you have experienced it but did not realise so... Wink In Europe it is used all of the time: a dealer at a show displays an obvious copy next to a good, aged copy of the same dagger type. He tells potential buyers: "...left is a copy, right is the original dagger...". You would be surprised how many people get tricked that way and think that they are buying originals! The role of the obvious fakes is to get the good/perfect fakes sold!

That exact same trick is used today in order to sell full Röhms and Himmlers... and this forum is playing an important role in the process: by showing potential buyers the obvious fakes !
The 2 SA full Rôhms showed by Brian are an excellent example!

So again, I understand that some of you are getting nervous with this topic...
Cool

Best greetings,

Herman


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Hermann, I guess you must be right as you seem to know so much about the original Rohm daggers. Maybe you should put on a seminar so that we can all learn from you as to who the dealers are who are selling these perfect fakes and we can avoid them.
It might be that you could put it on under the famous Brussel statue in Belgium and we can all bring protection from the water.


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Dave, Ron,

I see that you are getting interested... I will let you know when I intend to write a book...

Cool

I hope you don't mind if I will write it in French or in Dutch? (with a translation into German of course!)

Best greetings,

Herman


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I think Ron,s taking the Mannekin Pis!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

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Very well Seiler, you know the world!

Gentlemen,

I get the impression that some of us are out of arguments to defend their (difficult Wink) position here, so the usual "blabla" and "making fun" is starting now... personal attacks will probably start real soon...

But this topic was defenitely worth it! Cool

Nothing to learn about the hobby anymore... Frown

Best greetings,

Herman


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herr Mann:

Gentlemen,

I get the impression that some of us are out of arguments to defend their (difficult Wink) position here, so the usual "blabla" and "making fun" is starting now... personal attacks will probably start real soon...

-------------------------------------------

Herman,
With all due respect, don't you think that it is the other way around ?
What are your arguments ?
As you know, in a court of law you would loose your case as you don't have any susubstantial evidence. No one will get "nasty" here as we are all grown up adults and some cases are not even worth fighting for. Wink
You are allowed to your own opinion and I've got my own.
I don't know if you have been a colector for a long time or if you have much experience in the hobby but I would certainly like to see your expert crudentials, as I have never heard of you before.
Just between you and I in our own language.

" Tu sait Herman, je pense personnellement que cela est un peu ridicule de faire de t'elle affirmations sans aucune preuve. Je connais beaucoup de mecs dans le hobby et j'ai beaucoup étudié les dagues Rohm et Himmler, et je ne crois pas du tout que cela soit possible de faire une dague parfaite. Les dagues Rohm et Himmler ne sont pas si rare non plus et ce ne sont seulement que les delears qui font croire qu'elle sont rare. Juste pour faire augmenté leurs valeurs. "
Salutation !
Pat

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Pat,

We are not in a court room here, we are just collectors of TR daggers and other (preferably period) stuff, sharing experiences and trying to help each other via this forum, with our purchases for the hobby. Nothing must be proved here, I do not attack or judge specifically anyone, nor the collectables that he or she collects. Creating "reasonable doubt" will do in this case. Wink

The investors in TR items should less be concerned with this topic, as they will probably not put their money (for the longer term) in risky items like full Röhms and Himmlers.

The dealers are in it for their living, so it is normal that "they look at it in a different way" than the collectors, but I think that mature discussions like this one, must be possible on a truly "independent" forum. If it is not in favour of certain members' businesses, then it is understandable that they try to defend their selves with any (sometimes poor) arguments that they can think of or even that they try make the discussion stop as quickly as possible... Wink
But hey, we live in a free world, so I can express my funded opinions and... honestly I like to combat possible frauds... Wink

Please stop asking "For how long are you collecting?" As I said previously: I do follow the dagger market very intensively for a couple of years now, I do know personally several senior collectors (who do not care to express their opinions on forums like this) and having a degree of "Ingénieur commercial Solvay" (call it a Master in Economics and Sciences if you want), I do know something about economics, businesses, sales and production processes. I also know for many years what a "gorget" is... Smile

One more point that I want to add to this discussion: the early reference books that we all know about often indicated production figures of daggers, rarety scales of the different types,... etc. The new ones (sometimes of the same authors) seem to concentrate more on displaying desirable, exotic (but sometimes questionable) items so that they can be sold for more money "because they are displayed in a major reference", I know that the same thing happens with art, antique furniture, ...etc. But I think that it is a bad evolution for the hobby... So it would be interesting if the real specialist among us would start to write reference books that again contain "facts & figures" based on serious historical research. Personally I think that, for example the MCSARR reference was a super initiative!

But off course, collectors that know all the numbers will start to ask questions before they spend their money... so back to the square one of this topic... Cool

Best greetings,

Herman

PS: Pat, ton français est excellent, toutes mes félicitations! Smile


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I recently found this Himmler on a German dealer's website. NATURALLY original Smile

The Himmler only has one obvious fault. If it wasn’t for the dot over the “i” in Himmler it definitely COULD fool a lot of people - it’s p r e t t y good !!!

SOMEDAY this dagger will fool SOMEBODY Roll Eyes

I'd like to mention that this thread symbolizes why I ONLY have a few common daggers and why I ONLY buy my daggers by private individuals in Germany - or people I trust (or both Smile).

The philosophy is that the daggers were made in Germany, most of the genuine ones are still to be found there and the normal daggers don't get faked Smile

Last remark is regarding the NPEA daggers - every collector's nightmare Red Face

IF they made such "good" copies in the 60'ties - then PLEASE think about what they can do today !!!

FOOD FOR THOUGHT, GENTLEMEN Eek

Jesper

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Jesper,That Himmler dagger is awful I could tell it was a fake the instant I looked at it.It may be because you prompted me.I think most good daggers are in the USA because of the American GI.After the war the Germans were not allowed to have any weapons at all and did not want to be associated with the nazis in any way.IMO


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Fakers are getting better and better, but will never completely do a perfect job and simply because it cannot be done.

Simple as that ! Wink

Here's what a very good friend of mine ( and expert ) once told me about those faked daggers.

His quote : "One has to ask himself, what would it take to replicate technology and skill that was used 65 years ago when we live in an age where we can fly a plane at 2000 mph, put a man into space and send an email across the globe in just seconds ? For some reason, any and all of the items made during the era of Nazi Germany can never seem to be reproduced in the exact fashion that they were made many years ago. With a computer, it wouldn't seem to be that difficult to make an exact SS helmet decal today, that perfectly matched those of 1935-1944...............but it is. The same for say a war badge or Honor ring. There is just something about the old way that items were manufactured that we can never go back and do over again. Why is that ? I guess to do so, that the task would have to be accomplished in the same fashion with out modern technology, computers and electronics in order to achieve the same product that was easily made by crafman in Solingen 65 years ago and sold for $ 2.50."


This has to be the best explanation that I have ever heard about faked items from the TR era.


Just plain and simple logic !

This logic could also be applied to many things that were done many years or even centuries ago but that cannot be reproduced today.
Ever tried to make a modern Stradivarius violon by any chance ? Or a '65 Stingray corvette ? the list is endless !
You need these old machines in order to duplicate these old items and our modern technology just can't do it.



They cannot be perfectly reproduced

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This is just logic - if it was a "perfect fake' then it is not fake at all but real. The term "perfect fake" is an oxymoron. What we should be talking about are fakes that fool most of the people who look at them & about which even "experts" disagree.I certainly respect expert opinion here, but when disagreements arise here among experts {like on the recent SA Rohm pics) it makes me think twice about Rohms. And again, if as commented here, you need to handle the Rohm because you can't tell from the pictures, why post them? I'm a beginner, I defer to the experts, but when the experts disagree I walk away - at least until I get more evidence to satisy myself, I'm staying away for now from Rohms & Himmlers - not the right decision for everybody - just for me.

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Definition of expert.One who has bought more crap than oneself. Roll Eyes


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Zorro:

This Himmer doesn't fool us, but...
I also showed you the pictures because it's a DEALER who is selling a fake as an original !!!

Pat:

OF CAUSE fakers COULD do a perfect job...

Jesper

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I do agree with Jesper, it could be done, there are enough fine craftsmen in the jewelry and custom engraving profession alone to pull it off, just look at the fine medals and badges being produced right now in Eastern Europe, near impossible to differentiate. I have seen some exceptional custom work and engraving also on guns as well.

Are they doing "perfect" daggers now, who knows, we certainly can't agree on it here Big Grin

Red

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,304
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As I have said manyyyyyyyyyyy times, please gentlemen, show us a pefect faked dagger, SS helmet, Knight's Cross, etc, etc !
No disrespect intended but as far as I'm concerned, these are just words and we still don't have any single shred of evidence that these perfect fake does exist.
C'mon guys, let's be serious here for a moment and give us some facts, other than that, I'm not convinced. Anyone with some experience will tell you that it ain't possible to reproduce any of these high end items.
It is not for us to prove that these co-called perfect fakes does exist, as I have never seen one, but it is you that has to convinced us that they do exist.
Of course, we always get the usual rhetoric that they are so well made, that they are perfect and hence, no one can actually see that they are fake. C'monnnnnnnnnnn ! Roll Eyes
Is that what you call running after your own tail. Big Grin

How come that none of the big names in the hobby, such as Houston, Craig, Gailen, Bill, Witmann, Johnson and the list goes on and on, does not believe in that "perfect faked" theory ?
Funny enought, those that believe in that theory are just normal, plain collectors...............just like me.
I'm sorry but I'll go with what the other experienced collectors have to say. Razz
If it were true, why in the world would I spend my money in order to get those COA from the big names. Big Grin
Actually, why would I bother buying any daggers at all if I can't even tell if it is fake or not ?
It just doesn't make any sense !

I have been waiting for years just to see a simple faked SA early dagger.
I'm still waiting and would like to see one and it shouldn't be that difficult, as it is the easiest dagger to reproduce.
Guess what ? Nobody has ever seen one yet !
Could this be considered as a "clue" ? Wink

SHOW US THE EVIDENCE !

I think that it would be wise for those that believe in that "perfect fake" conspiracy theory, to show us some facts.
Other than that, it has no value for anyone as nothing can be proven to be true.
You need some meat on the bone in order to prove a theory, not only in the militaria world but in any hobby or science class.
Here's my own simple theory that I have just made.

NO FACTS = NO PROOF = NO VALUE + WASTE OF TIME. Big Grin

Joined: Feb 2006
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Nobody with a $15.000 Röhm or Himmler think they have a fake. Thus nobody will show you a dagger that is a fake, Pat - NOBODY !!!

Jesper

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Jesper, in the last month we were able to spot 3 faked SA full Rohm in the Rohm section on GDC.
They are easy to spot and even easier when you actually hold them in your hands.
The fact that those Himmlers or Rohm that we don't see, does not mean that they are perfect fake, as we always can tell that they are fake.
Anyone that has what he thinks to be an original Himmler or Rohm will gladly show his prize on the web.
It doesn't make any sense that anyone that thinks that he has an original Rohm, wouldn't want to show us his dagger.
Why not ?
Anyone that thinks that he has a perfect faked Himmler will of course be worried about showing his dagger on the web.
But then, if he thinks that his dagger is fake, then it ain't perfect.
Do you see where I'm getting and why it doesn't hold the water ? Wink

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