UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons European Edged Weapons AUSTRIAN NAVY DRESS DAGGER M.1849/54

Recently I saw one Austrian Navy dress dagger m.1849/54 in excellent condition.
The dagger is 100 % genuine, but the main confusion is covered marines symbols on the upper part of scabbard.
Does anybody can comment (or explain) this?

aditional photo

Hi Tobi.

Before we declare this dagger absolutely original.

We need to know the material of the grip.

What is the grip material. It looks like either an ivory or synthetic composition.

Can you identify it.

Jim

Hi Jim,
After more than 30 years of collecting, believe me that I have enough experience to recognize fakes from originals.
I repeat once again the dagger is 100% original.
But anyhow I will answer you – the grip is if genuine IVORY!

Austrian 1854 daggers daggers did not have ivory grips.

Austria did not have access to ivory at the time. This is a historical fact.

Sorry.

Are you certain that only the crown and anchor are under the wrap? If you check Berger, you will note several versions of the Danube Steamship Company. One scabbard identical to the 1854 Navy but with the smaller crown and the DSL on it.

It is just a thought. Later versions of ththe DSL had bone grips.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim W:
Austrian 1854 daggers daggers did not have ivory grips.

Austria did not have access to ivory at the time. This is a historical fact.

Sorry.

Hi Jim
I can recognize the genuine ivory to, so I repeat my statement – the grip is of ivory.
In “Adjustirungsvorschrift” from 1854 state that the grip (for navy dagger) is made of white ivory (weißen Elfenbein).
Please see the book “SÄBEL, DEGEN, DOLCHE” from Dr. Erich Gabriel published from Military Museum in Vienna (Heeresgeschichtlichen Museum in Wien).

quote:

Originally posted by Jim W:
Are you certain that only the crown and anchor are under the wrap? If you check Berger, you will note several versions of the Danube Steamship Company. One scabbard identical to the 1854 Navy but with the smaller crown and the DSL on it.

It is just a thought. Later versions of ththe DSL had bone grips.

Actually I do not know what are under the wrap (the dagger is not in my possession), but I certainly know that DSG navy daggers have different shape.
So, it is not DSG dagger.

This dagger is not in my area, and I don’t know why a scabbard would be covered like this. My question: Is the dagger by an Austrian maker? Or one in Germany?

Also, while Austria did not have colonies in Africa or India. It also did not have direct access to the precious stones seen for example with the crown jewels, which still found their way to the makers of same. Not being aware of an embargo of ivory, or cessation of trade, until WW I cut off supplies of various materials to both Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. FP

The dagger is made in Austria.

There are several itterations of the Danube dagger known and documented. One almost identical to yours.

I notice the crown appears to be crooked when compared to the direction of the crossguard.

These daggers were "peened". Also, the grips and grip fittings are not for round grips. But rather the grip is oval in the diameter. The flat side showing and the narrower dimension from the side. I am wondering about the grips fit and why the crown is not in the straight position.

I will tell you I have several grips of ivory from the imperial era. And all of them show some age. Perhaps you could show us this grip without so much "flash" so we cqan see the age lines and coloration of a 150 year old piece of ivory.

Fred. These daggers have been reproduced for so long most Austrians don't bother with them. This dagger looks really good, but every reproduction I have seen has looked good. They also all had ivory grips or ivory like grips.

Tobi certainly knows what he is doing and is an expert. But there were only a handfull of these originally. They are pretty much in established collections.

This is all just my opinion.

But Tobi. If you want to know what is going on with that dagger, take off the wrap.

Jim, I have Imperial era (and earlier) naval blades with Ivory grips myself. Which don’t look like this one, with all of them showing age - but not necessarily to the same degree. With this one seeming to have some slight discolorations, but I can't see close enough to tell what it is beyond that.

As I said these daggers are not something I specialize in not knowing when the cutoff point was for their manufacture. And with what looks like a later type etch, I’ve assumed that this was just a (legitimate) carryover from earlier times. Best Regards, Fred

Nice photo work.

The Dagger was introduced in 1854 and in 1867, Austria became a part of the Austro Hungarian empire. AS you can see, the productioon of these stopped prior to the use of ivory in dagger grips by Germany and most other countries.

The original grips are really quite impressive. A translucent material close to mother of pearl.

Hi,
In “Marine-Adjustirungs-Vorschrifts-Änderung” from 1849 for all officers - one Marine Dagger was introduced! In these Regulations it was only the descriptions of the dagger. In “Marine-Adjustirungs-Vorschrifts” from 1854 the descriptions was slightly changed but it came the exactly drawings of the dagger and hanger. Because of this I called this model as M.1849/54.
In “Navy Dress regulations” for Navy officers and cadetten from 1865 – dress dagger does not even mentioned. So, it is debatable if the wearing the dress dagger continued after 1865.
The fact is that there are many variations of these rare daggers. I personally have examined many very good made Hungarian copies, but only a few originals.

quote:

The original grips are really quite impressive. A translucent material close to mother of pearl.

While too early for the cellulose based plastics which were still undergoing experimentation. There were at the time molded natural based polymers, with plastic characteristics, that could be made to resemble Ivory and other substances. Manufactured under certain conditions they could also achieve a translucent quality.

With the understanding that my background is more in the area of swords. I would also add that that in that general time frame, Austria relied heavily on German blade makers. And that the overall look of the etch posted IMO is not reflective of what might commonly be expected from German makers in the mid 19th century. And with absolutely no disrespect intended. I don't think that there was an Austrian technological advantage over Solingen makers in that time frame.

Best Regards to All, Fred

If the nautical plait is original to this dagger I certainly hope it is never removed, that is real maritime history.

Wrap removed. A beautiful piece came out.

Notice to moderator: PLEASE ALOVE BIGGER AND BETTER PHOTOS THAN ONLY 111 kB.

I can't believe you took it off!! nuts!!

Unfortunately this is not a DSL scabbard. So, the problem with the grip (either material or age) and the blade etch. Later blade than 1865, that looks plated. Makes me question if this is pre 1865. I understand there are excellent Austrian reproductions of the dagger. If this is a reproduction, it is clearly one of the better ones. But I can not get past the grip and blade.

Apparently DAmsat and Vic know what these types of wraps are. Perhaps one of you could answer the original question.

Thank you

Jim

I am rarely on this site, so I missed this in the beginning. Scrimshaw and sailor knots have been around since sailors first went to the sea in ships. It is an ancient way for sailors to spend their down time. Plaits like on this dagger are or (were in this case) extremely rare to see. These sailor knots adorn many things like belaying pins, knife handles, ax handles some were continued into turks knots you see them a 1000 different places associated with the sea. It is unfortunate that this little piece of history was destroyed.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim W:
If this is a reproduction, it is clearly one of the better ones.

Hi Jim
You still do not believe me when I said that the dagger is 100% GENUINE (original).
In my collection I have more that 200 daggers and I have enough experience to recognize the originality of some daggers.

Tobi, I do not doubt your expertise at all. One simply can not argue with the fact the materials are wrong for the period of construction.

But, that is just my opinion. It is a beautiful dagger. I simply would not buy it.

quote:

Tobi, I do not doubt your expertise at all.

I do! after you cut the Plaits off!
But than again I guess it is yours to do with what you want... I concede to the experts (who know the price of everything and value of nothing.)
(I stole that last little quote )
Regards: James

Hi James.

Perhaps something a bit more positive would be nice.

I do not see the value you place in this wrap as there are questions in my mind over the true age of the dirk. That makes the wrap an attractive add on. The same as putting original RLB hangers on a parts dagger.

So, please address the issue of the grip material and age. Also, why does it look like a late 19th century etch on a mid 19th century dirk.

You are a knowledgeable collector. I have no dog in this fight. So, if you have something positive to add. please let us hear it.

This dagger has better detail than the modern reproductions.

I don’t know if there might possibly be a disconnect as to what a nickel plated Imperial German era etched blade might look like - versus this dagger. But for comparison purposes here is a portion of the blade from a Prussian Kürassierpallasch (officer’s model).

Also, while successful nickel plating efforts were recorded earlier (1843). As a viable industrial process I think the 1870's could be considered a starting point. Although that was attended by a number of technical hurdles. With early plating efforts having noticeably uneven results as methods and equipment were developed to overcome the problems encountered. FP

The blade of Austrian dagger is NOT nickel-plated.

Tobi, The problem that I am having is that it in the images posted earlier it looks to me like nickel plating. Nickel plating tends to fill in and smooth over the very small pockmarks that etching creates. And it causes the light to reflect differently.

With the best image that I could find on short notice. Here is a portion of the ricasso from a sword that is a little later than the Prussian sword that I posted. Showing a polished bare steel blade that has been acid etched. While it's not the best of pictures. It does show I think the very small reflections from the pockmarks (hills and valleys) created by the etching process, as it dissolved the steel surrounding the (protective) design template. With the gray coloration of the etched area being a typical result of the interaction of the acid with the steel. Best Regards, Fred

Hello Tobi,

I am new to this forum and coming to this topic rather late. Nevertheless, I would like to add my imput regarding your original question. I have some degree of knowledge of k.u.k. navy uniforms and equipment, and I can tell you that the wrap over the top of the scabbard may have been due to the use of the dagger in the Royal Yugoslavian Navy. After WWI the former Dalmation coastline of the k.u.k. navy became part of the new Yugoslavian State. They established their own navy at this time, and since many of the former k.u.k. officers were born within the new Yugoslav territories they were commissioned within the new navy and permitted to use much of their k.u.k. equipment. In many instances the uniforms and embroidered equipment was modified for the Yugoslavian Navy (They began using their own slightly modified crown), but obviously this was not an option for a dagger. As a result, covering the crown design as in this case would have been an acceptible way of continuing to use the dagger in the "new" navy.

As for the dager itself, there were no less than EIGHT variations of the model 1849 k.u.k. navy dagger, and I see no reason from the photos to discount absolute authenticity of your version. In fact, the 1849 versions were a permitted part of the k.u.k. navy uniform up to the World War, albeit they were not readily used as the marine sword was the primary weapon of wear for officers post 1850's. The only other change that went into effect regarding the navy dagers was the introduction in 1865 of a cadet "dirk". Other than that, the 1849 verswion continued. Indeed, there are other "variations" that exist that were not a part of the officially recognized variations but were still used by officers because of the "unofficial" aspect of this particlar peiece of equipment from the 1870's on. So as you can imagine, it is unproductive to attempt to debate what the "correct" blade, etc. should have been under these cicumstances.

Prior to the end of WWI the navy actually designed a new dagger for use in the k.u.k. navy (1917-1918 model). Unfortuntaley this model was never mass produced nor distributed, and I believe that only one sample model exists in the collection of the Heeresgeschichtliches museum in Vienna. Interestingly enough, this 1917-1918 model seems to be the basis for the wave of k.u.k. navy dagger fakes that have been coming into the market in recent times. Further, I have seen the fakes and real daggers in person, and I can assure you that it is very easy to spot the fakes if you know what to look for (this response was for an earlier commentator in this thread).

Lovely dagger-I wish I could see it in person. Is it for sale? I look forward to hearing from you Tobi and seeing any pictures of other k.u.k. navy daggers.

Kind regards to all on this forum!
Jim T.