UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum how much

thanks Adam just on a side note it has been found in old scroll that judas was only doing what jesus asked just recently.the first few of us had got past the name and back to the topic then some one jumps in and sends it down this road for what point? i cant believe it what some have to say a bout what name you use as it mite not be pc right. and yet own this stuff them self,s. if they think that some will find a name offensive then do you really think that they will not take offensive to owning the stuff as well.what georg elser wrote is just that of a hypocrite.kind regards judas

As long as collectors are willing to pay the price, dealers can do whatever they want. We are the greedy ones. Every year I see prices going up, it's like a trend and when does it stop?

fread i see the same topic on other sites asking the same and yes it is collectors as well.when does it stop well i know some one with **** loads of cash he went on a biding war with andrew Lloyd webber ..for a painting the guy i know got it .but then his wife turned and he has had to sell up .now the think is he went to sale it and it was out of most price range of most who liked it and andrew in the end did not wont it.so who does that leave ???.we all like to see thinks go up but every six weeks.

Judas, what an item can be worth is pure emotion. A lot of people declare me insane for buying these historical items. For them other things count more.
If one thinks what a piece of German cloth costs these days, Hitler would die laughing. The same things counts for paintings from Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Monet and you name it.
What are these items really worth?

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Fokkelman:
As long as collectors are willing to pay the price, dealers can do whatever they want. We are the greedy ones. Every year I see prices going up, it's like a trend and when does it stop?

Fred,
You've hit the nail on the head!! I dont think any collector wants to see the prices drop,while prices keep going up,so does the value of people's collections.If prices plummeted you would see a lot of discontent collectors.At the end of the day everybody likes to think their investments are earning there keep.

Best Wishes Keith

I am still lost in seeing why if you have a love for the items themselves why you truly care what the stuff is worth. But I assume many really only collect for the investment potential, in that case you are not really a collector IMO you’re an “investor”. Just like most the major dealers they invest in the fact that the item will increase in value and they pay veteran’s and collectors accordingly. The old buy low sell high scheme, that how it goes in the stock market unless you are going short on a stock and betting it will decrease in value. But truly if the money really means that much to you I would invest in stocks and not German Militaria there is a lot more money in the Market and it is much easier to liquidate if you need quick money or you pass away, think of your poor kids or widow trying to sell this stuff, I guarantee they would profit more off of stocks because they will be getting burnt from here to Texas trying to sell a collection they know nothing about.. A hobby like this should be fun and more about the history of it all then the money, and especially a hobby like this that is already so despised by so many, why do it because it may have an investment potential, how do you explain yourselves as to why you collect? Also I for one could careless if the items decreased in value that would only mean I could own more of the items I love so much, if you really think the items are great and lovely and that is the reason you collect value should mean “null”. I would not shed a tear for any money lost, I truly could care less as long as the history remains. Also I wish all the people that emailed me in support of my thoughts and viewpoints on this issue would become more vocal, maybe if that happen these “trendsetter” would listen to us.

adam the problem is this has gone way past the point of what you have said for us all. and the more people try to bane it the more i think it will go up.and yes there is the point of us wonting it for the history but it has gone beyond that.i dont know what you buy but i dont think you will let it go at k mart price??i know there are some sitting back and saying this is about the can,s and can not,s.the have,s and have not,s .kind regards judas

Adam very wise words.I agree,as a young boy I liked to collect comics because they were fun and interesting. I couldve cared less about potential future value.Only years later after I gave my collection to my brother did I learn some of them were extreme rarities and valuable.But the enjoyment and the fun I got out of it was my reward.

Militaria was the same when I started it was fun and exciting to have something that was actually in the war I watched in many television shows and movies.It wasnt hard to raise $5.00 for an EK2 or even later $25.00. But now an Ek2 can feed my family for two weeks.I loved to read the history behind these things and now this investment mentality about everything not just militaria has destroyed that for many people. I dont blame the dealers because as Fred said its the so called collector and I say so called becasue many dont know squat about what they own they just own it because it has value.Since joining the forums I am astounded by how many people buy things and have no idea what went on in the history of the item they buy.Regimetal history etc.etc.
I used to enjoy aquiring a new piece but now prices have gone beyond my limitations, and I know mine,so I will hang on to what I have and watch the game from the sidelines.

i read the history of what i own and i still have lots to learn and all ways will .i have a black allgemeine officers tunic here that i cant get my head round.as it seems to have been used by both german and dutch ss i have enlisted the help from a very wise and humble person on this matter .and we are both at odds with this tunic i love this one the most even thou its giving me the most problems.
just thinking how it got here who owned it and how it came to be what it is.but i think i will never know

Adam, well written. For me the item counts and if it's worth more later... well that's a nice bonus. I can't believe some people see this hobby as an investment.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Fokkelman:
Adam, well written. For me the item counts and if it's worth more later... well that's a nice bonus. I can't believe some people see this hobby as an investment.

Fred
Without wishing to appear awkward,and seeing I know you better than anybody else on this thread.
Let me put this question to you, this thread started about prices, and how prices have risen,now members are saying it does'nt matter what the cost is, you buy the piece because you want to own "that piece of history" If thats the case cost's should'nt come into it..
Personally as a dealer I think prices have gone completely crazy, last week I watched as a allg SS NCO's visor cap changed hands between two dealers for $3600+ whats that cap going to sell for??? Unfortunately I cant see prices dropping just collectors dropping out.

Regards Keith

quote:

Originally posted by TonyS:
Donald must have missed this OR Allgemeine cap on Bill Shea's website (HG47a) that sold for $5800 last month..........

I did see that piece, in fact. Very handsome early Stueck. I did not buy it, though. The Jarvis overcoat I had in mind was for the Allgem. Sta. in Bayreuth or Kulmbach, but in any case # 41. It was 4,000 dollars. I recall the SSVT piece, as well. Viel Sammlerglueck.

Kieth, with a shrinking consumer base will it become harder to move many items with the exception of the very attractive super rarity?

I must agree with the idea that many may be paying the high prices but when it comes time to move it will it sell for more or at cost?

Also in comparing these things with a Van Gogh or Monet painting,the value in Art endures because they are placed on display in museums around the world and studied by both students of art, critics of art, and collectors of art.
Memoribilia of the Third Reich is collected,and studied only by those with a specific attraction or interest in obtaining a piece of this history. University students seldom if ever make a pilgrimage to view and study an Allgemeine SS coat where they would a famous painting. Museums seldom if ever plan entire events around a display of militaria that draws students,critics,collectors and the general public.There is a finite group of people who build an interest im militaria and im afraid the majority are in a middle to lower income bracket.I am certain after reading other threads on the subject that many are in debt deep because of this hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnPic79:
Kieth, with a shrinking consumer base will it become harder to move many items with the exception of the very attractive super rarity?

I must agree with the idea that many may be paying the high prices but when it comes time to move it will it sell for more or at cost?

Also in comparing these things with a Van Gogh or Monet painting,the value in Art endures because they are placed on display in museums around the world and studied by both students of art, critics of art, and collectors of art.
Memoribilia of the Third Reich is collected,and studied only by those with a specific attraction or interest in obtaining a piece of this history. University students seldom if ever make a pilgrimage to view and study an Allgemeine SS coat where they would a famous painting. Museums seldom if ever plan entire events around a display of militaria that draws students,critics,collectors and the general public.There is a finite group of people who build an interest im militaria and im afraid the majority are in a middle to lower income bracket.I am certain after reading other threads on the subject that many are in debt deep because of this hobby.

Hi John,

Yes I think it will become harder to sell even the ultra rare SS pieces,as I said earlier prices have just gone crazy , hence most dealers have to offer layaway plans to accomodate the normal working guy,who can afford officers tunics when you're average flatwire arm eagle sells for $1500.

Regards Keith

And what about an SS-Officers nickel silver belt buckle at $3000.00 from a flaged advertizer on this site maybe someone will buy it and think they have a good deal because of its rarity.
Compared with that of a dagger that was hand made and not purely stamped by a machine,,,,,

Ahh Donald, Yes the "41" Bayreuth Mantel bought by me from Mr Jarvis I wonder who owns this now?

John you make some very valid points. It might be better to compare Third Reich militaria to other militaria like items from say the Civil War, especially Confederate stuff. As time wears on, Third Reich items may lose their somewhat distasteful appeal and more people will come into this area of collecting.

This Confederate battle flag and Generals frock coat sold for $125,000 each. Obviously they did not start out at those sort of prices but over time are now in millionaires territory.

As Keith says the prices have gone crazy and they might settle or go down for a while but I think will continue to climb over the long term. (personally I hope they go down for a bit)

Thanks Donald. I must have missed the #41 coat. I've been a regular at other sites lately...

Keith,
What I meant is that collecting comes first for me, the value second. I love this hobby for it's historical meaning and not pur sang for it's value. If I want some item I am willing to pay the price, according to some standards of course.
The current prices are not in balance with the items, but I said this too 10 years ago.

The problem is the pricing increases are far outweighing inflation so most middle class or lower people cannot and never will match price increases on these items. I look forward to what the future holds when the monopolies over the hobby end, wither it be good or bad?? I remember being able to easily by a SA dagger but not these day's, now I get a pile of dung for a "honest good price". I think even now a minty SA in my opinion should still be $300 to $400, but they are way overpriced because people on buying frenzies and will pay the prices with no regard to its effect on the hobby as a whole. But alas I have COLA and $1.00hr raises and they won't compete with the greed of this hobby, so that leaves me with guys like John P., I will sit on the sidelines and only buy when a fair price comes up now and then, the dealer’s won’t get my business on item that I think are priced unfair, some other Tommie can exploit his credit some more “But is ain’t me babe” -J.Cash . And the Civil war will always be more collectable it true Americana, and has and always will have far less of a stigmata attach to it. We all know the South had slave but never death camp, you know? Thou you have a bigger audience of P.C. collectors in that area, that we don’t get in our area of collecting.

all good vaild points .hiag and john i think have made some home truths.its not the rich that will keep these dealers going in the end i hope they know this .just because some cant buy this week it doesnt mean they cant the next.and it is too late to keep the price out when you buy unless 10,000 up is nothing to you.

povon you are a great one too. all- ways asking who has a black cap too sale and up,ing the price on your site.i think you are the first to ask 6000 for a nco.kind regards

In regards to Civil war items, they are also still on demand in Museums nationwide where often displays of memoribilia from that period make nationwide tours through different museums. History that still lives and has important relevance to this nation, schools still teach more about the civil war and its causes than they do about the Nazis.Hence the collectability of items associated with this nations history which by the way remains under the same form of government it had during the civil war.
I am certain and im begining to see it happen (despite what many said over the past five years)that younger people just do not hold the fascination with these items that the babyboomers have. In the past two months ive seen a few sell off that $10000 knights cross they waited for and worked so hard to buy AT COST or for less than they paid..they got tired of it? or they realized that much money may only come around once? When they bought them they were so excited but the thrill ended withing a couple years in one case within a couple months.I am certain the peak has been reached and prices may get higher but collectors will get fewer.

I still believe the same thing I said long ago, and it was pretty much summed up by John:

"I'm certain the peak has reached and prices may get higher, but collectors will get fewer".

Civil War, Third Reich, Revolutionary, you name it - the goods are expensive, are going to get more expensive, and will undoubtedly only be traded between a continuously disolving amount of people that still have interest in owning any of these goods at the prices they have to pay.

Once a customer can't afford a "fix", that customer will seek his satisfaction in some other form of less expensive venue(a simple rule of addiction), and I believe that's what we all know is coming in this hobby - we just don't want to believe it!

Just my simple and personal introspect on the relative subject at hand . . . .

Brad

Brad, I believe switching venues for your 'fix' already started to happen several years ago and is now reflected in the escalating prices of US and Soviet militaria. Whats bad for one end of the hobby seems to be good for the other. I sold off the vast majority of my TR collection and have newfound enthusiasm in how inexpensive and fun collecting other nations militaria can be. There is rare stuff to chase in that arena as well.

The problem with the TR stuff is it used to be fun and relatively inexpensive and those of us who have been in it for decades remember collecting it for the history and getting pieces from the vets with their capture stories. Now it seems to have turned into an ego stroke with everyone trying to out-buy each other in a mad competition to flaunt your latest ultra-rare score and get attaboys from the club and looks of jealousy from the have nots. Sad state indeed. As John Pic earlier stated, there are many buying items who have no knowledge whatsoever not only of the history but of the item. Its more prevelant on other forums where its a constant onslaught of "Is this good" threads of items belonging to "friends". These idiots buy stuff and THEN try and determine if its real or not.

Yes, its gone from a hobby filled with guys who studied the history of the war to an influx of refugees from a Star Trek convention used to collecting things still sealed mint in box. Argh.

Agreed.

I have been waiting for this material to decline in price, or even stabilize, since about 1968. My hopes have been dashed. I cannot account for people interested in this material, who are unable to study the past, develop their empirical skills, read and reflect. I suppose these traits are dying out in this society, generally. I collect this material because it has always interested me, and, despite forty years with it, I still have much to learn and understand. sapere aude.

I think the decline, or at least the stabilization of TR stuff is near. I have noticed a pattern of collectors now having to sell off or trade items on a regular basis when they find something new that they want. Thus the best and sometimes only way to afford new things now is to part with something or a multitude of items. When it reaches that stage you are no longer collecting, you're disposing as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
I have been waiting for this material to decline in price, or even stabilize, since about 1968. My hopes have been dashed. I cannot account for people interested in this material, who are unable to study the past, develop their empirical skills, read and reflect. I suppose these traits are dying out in this society, generally. I collect this material because it has always interested me, and, despite forty years with it, I still have much to learn and understand. sapere aude.

The decline of the Western Civilisation! Who wants to learn these days, especially history? At work - in the Netherlands - I notice the same decline in spirit and interest for work and cases beyond new mobile phones, fast cars and having fun - hedonism. When I look back at my fathers generation - he is from 1927 - it was a totally different matter... alas. And this reflects on our historical hobby.

I agree with Fred, not to many people of this generation care about anything except what may become of tomorrow, they definitely don't care what becomes of the past. Really I think we will see a large decline in interest in all historical areas. It is even reflected by the requirements of high school graduates, especially in America these days; Math, language arts and science requirements are fairly high but history associated class requirements are low and the only history type classes really required are generally associated merely with ones own country. I graduated only 7 years ago, I remember vividly the contempt most students held for the dreaded U.S. history class and Western Civ. which amazingly were among my favorite class. I think and will personally hold steadfast in my believes that we will see a large decline in the interest in all historical areas, believe it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Fokkelman:

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
I have been waiting for this material to decline in price, or even stabilize, since about 1968. My hopes have been dashed. I cannot account for people interested in this material, who are unable to study the past, develop their empirical skills, read and reflect. I suppose these traits are dying out in this society, generally. I collect this material because it has always interested me, and, despite forty years with it, I still have much to learn and understand. sapere aude.

The decline of the Western Civilisation! Who wants to learn these days, especially history? At work - in the Netherlands - I notice the same decline in spirit and interest for work and cases beyond new mobile phones, fast cars and having fun - hedonism. When I look back at my fathers generation - he is from 1927 - it was a totally different matter... alas. And this reflects on our historical hobby.

My father was Jahrgang 1912 and my Doktorvater was Jahrgang 1913. From them I learned an attitude and scholarship of the old school. Today, however, it is difficult to uphold standards. The joy of a library shelf seems alien to many of my charges. They want a single title; the ideal that you might search for ten on your own, in the kind of magic of discovery is alien to them, sadly. Nothing against fast cars, but I enjoy myself by looking at the SS Kleiderkasse catalog and its odd description of all manners of suspenders, sleeve protectors, and the like. Jedem das seine. However, the discipline of learning does seem in steep decline. Perhaps once this dark age passes, there will be some kind of renaissance in a far and distant moment. What all of this will do to the price of things is beyond my understanding, but I do re-state the point that the much ballyhooed decline in prices for this material never has unfolded in my experience. I take the point of my colleagues as to a likely stagnation or even decline, but has such phenomena transpired in US Civil War material, for instance? I used to follow it in the 1970s, but no longer. In any case, the stuff has always been too expensive. Such was true when a cap cost $125 dollars in 1972 and now costs $7,000 today.

Even just five years ago more members posted credible new items they aquired.Now aside from the posts of ebay junk and "a friends" fakes we only see the very well off high end guys posting anything of great interest. Other than that more and more discussions take a turn into this very subject, astronomical price increases.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnPic79:
Even just five years ago more members posted credible new items they aquired.Now aside from the posts of ebay junk and "a friends" fakes we only see the very well off high end guys posting anything of great interest. Other than that more and more discussions take a turn into this very subject, astronomical price increases.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/83097573/m/1690020104

John I posted pictures of this collection I acquired back in January. These are not all high end items but stuff almost anyone can afford. Look at the thread and see the number of responses and question I got. Pretty disheartening isn't it? I think this is one of the reasons many have quit even bothering posting anything unless it's a "show stopper" item.
Jim

And many loose their interest ... there is still enough good stuff out and also for fair prices. When somebody wants something has to work for it. I was 1 1/2 weeks in germany and just can say it is alway good to come back. But you have to build up your contacts over all the years and do some other things too for it. Last weekend was one dagger sold for around 8k in Euro, the dagger was a named SS Damast dagger. Some people spend so much already for a M36 SS chain dagger. Then a small auction house got one huge KC holder lot from the FJ ! Paper over paper, KC, GC and much much more for 23k Euro. So everybody has to know by his own what is it worth to spend.

I have been in shock when I've heard at the last few MAX/SOS shows of the debt some collectors have put themselves into,,,not $100s like the old days but many thousands!
It is getting all a little ridiculous......

I just wonder what all of you will say when gas reaches $10.00 a gallon. Oil just reached an all time numerical price of $70.00 a gallon. The highest ever? No!! It reached an inflation adjusted price of $90.00 in the mid 70's. Gold just broke $625 an ounce today, the highest in 25 years numerically, but not even close to inflation adjusted dollars for 1980. It would have to reach $2000 an ounce to match 1980. Bill Gates is often thought to be the richest man ever in the U.S., at 60+ billion. Is he?? Not even close!! At the turn of the century John D. Rockefeller had a net worth of about $900 million dollers. That's right, only 900 million. However in todays dollars that would have been 180 billion. So bill Gates is a relative pip squeek. However if Bill Gates decided to collect third reich material he could corner and destroy the market over night as he did with the last non institutional Leonardo Da V. manuscripts. My point is that in the current moment and near future, we will see a falling dollar and increase of the money supply that will produce price inflation of all commodities over and above all other supply and demand market forces. You see it now in oil first. Oil is rising not because of middle east problems but because of increased demand but also a falling dollar in which oil is denominated. A sea of dollars will float all boats including the third reich. Just a few rambling thoughts. David

What will I say? Nothing, Green Frog skins will buy you alot of things but not your sanity.

For every TR collector who will buy items as a hedge against inflation, there are probably 10,000 who who choose gold, silver, or real estate instead. Thus falls the argument of the invincibility of demand for the stuff.

I will say "nuke their a s s and take the gas" Actually I already say that.

I've had this discussion with a few collectors and some still consider Third Reich items cheap compared to other collectibles. Another example - a 1959 Barbie doll sold a while back for $25,427. A lot for a piece of molded plastic.

Lots of collectibles go through up and down periods. Look at the Antiques Roadshow and how often the the appraisers say something like - these items were in big demand a number of years ago but now you would be lucky to sell it, or these went through a slump and are becoming collectible again.

Anyone who buys Third Reich material as a hedge against inflation is making serious mistakes! Yes the trend’s of these items increasing in value over the years has been generally upward in monetary value with some area staying rather stagnate in value. But the underlining factor (s) is that it is not easy to turn your items into liquid asset ASAP and get the awesome prices that people seem to be getting these days if you want to sell with any kind of reasonable speed you will not receiving full value (“Market”) for these item. The Stock Market holds a great rate of return, even while playing the market safe. The market does flux but always grows, and it is really easy to get your returns or liquid assets in a hurry without the hassle of single sales or the lose of dealer’s paying you 60% of your items value. The only people that have good interest investing in this hobby are the guy that run it (Dealers), other then them its basically every item you buy from them just adds to their net worth. This hobby should be about history and nothing to do with money but a few always exploit good things for personal gain and its common in every hobby throughout history. While the people that truly care about the items and their history must re-mortgage homes and go into debt to afford it, it has gone to far and history has become commercialized, sadly. Items these day mean more to many because they are worth a lot and the history behind them means nothing. They are buying the items in hope of making a buck. When sadly enough they could make much more capital by fishing the stock market, and even more so if you plan on selling those high dollar items before you die, good luck getting what you think that they are worth, I hope you do because you family never will.

Don,t get me wrong, I didn't intend to say that third reich items are a hedge against inflation, or that they are a good investment, only that dollars are a BAD investment because they buy less goods and services every day. Totally the falt of the government. David