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#63305 06/03/2008 01:02 AM
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Terry,

Sorry, I wouldn't have posted had I known you were in mid post(s). Really well done. Like Steve C. said, the shame of it is all the lost individual posts from others with pieces we may never see again. I feel sick thinking about it.


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#63306 06/04/2008 07:48 PM
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EXCELLENT !!!! AWESOME INFORMATION !!! Thank you for your efforts!

This is an edged weapon I´ve recently bought. It´s marked with BISMARCK. It looks like a short dress bayonet, but it´s missing the press stud at the pommel. The scabbard looks like to be from a trench knife. Any idea what it is or who has worn such an edged weapon?

Bismarck.jpg (51.98 KB, 739 downloads)
#63307 06/04/2008 11:20 PM
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Is there a photo of the blade. It could be a trench knife or a miniature. What is the blade length and overall length.


TKissinger
#63308 06/05/2008 05:26 PM
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Here´s the Bismarck edged weapon between a short dress bayonet and a trench knife.

Blade length: 15 cm (5.9 inches)
Overall length: 25.5 cm (10 inches)

#63309 06/05/2008 05:29 PM
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Here the blade

#63310 06/05/2008 05:29 PM
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Blades

#63311 06/05/2008 06:21 PM
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I think its a trench knife. Most miniature bayonet scabbards would not have leather belt loops and scabbard runners. The bayonets were made of lesser quality materials. I think you have a very nice trench knife. I'm not sure if Bismarck is a TM or something else Will look in some books when I get home.


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#63312 06/06/2008 12:27 AM
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Bismarck = August Müller KG, Solingen-Merscheid


WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
#63313 06/06/2008 01:26 AM
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The scabbard is similar to the early HJ honor bayonets which were purportedly made from leftover stock of Imperial & Weimar fighting knives. The quality on thes eknives was very good & the size looks similar too. That's my thought, a Weimar fighting knife.


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#63314 06/06/2008 01:55 AM
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Nice job Denny and Billy.

Denny

See where the MAX may go back to Indy. Smile Smile


TKissinger
#63315 06/06/2008 09:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TKissinger:

Denny

See where the MAX may go back to Indy. Smile Smile


OFCOL!!!!


WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
#63316 06/18/2008 01:51 AM
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A version of A. Betz, Giessen

A._Betz,_Giessen.jpg (18.04 KB, 617 downloads)

TKissinger
#63317 06/18/2008 01:55 PM
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TKissinger:

I have seen, not necessarily on dress bayonets but on other blades, the following Eickhorn TMs:

double oval, smooth tail
double oval, smooth tail, C.E.
double oval, serrated tail
double oval, serrated tail, C.E.

The difference between them is the tail and the presence or absence of the letters 'C.E.' under the squirrel.

Does this variation exist in dress daggers?

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
#63318 06/18/2008 05:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TKissinger:
A version of A. Betz, Giessen


Terry,
Here is another....

KS_Betz.jpg (33.92 KB, 595 downloads)

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
#63319 06/19/2008 07:58 PM
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Hi Terry,

I do not recall you having this one:

http://www.aukro.cz/item386418800_kordik_hasic_nemecko.html#photo

It's ZEITLER-WIEN

JAN Big Grin


An avid KS98 bayonet collector.
#63320 06/20/2008 12:05 AM
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Its on page 18 of my pictures.


TKissinger
#63321 06/20/2008 03:03 AM
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Jan,

They're not common at all. This one is a beater that I snagged for $50, Terry's got the only other fire piece with this mark that I've seen. As you can see, the plating did not hold up well.

FW_Zeitler,_Wein.JPG (83.95 KB, 560 downloads)

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#63322 06/23/2008 12:16 AM
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Billys right, I do have one. Mine also has these numbers on the flat side of the pommel.

97A.jpg (18.47 KB, 549 downloads)

TKissinger
#63323 08/08/2008 07:35 PM
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Hi All,
here is a variation of WKC trade mark, which has differencies in the knight's head. The bayonet has fake release button. I will appriciate any info about this bayo.
Best regards, Maks

IMG_5440_logo.jpg (81.77 KB, 512 downloads)
WKC logo
#63324 08/08/2008 07:37 PM
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The bayo itself

IMG_5443_a_resize_resize.jpg (110.83 KB, 505 downloads)
blade
#63325 08/09/2008 02:32 AM
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Here are the two WKC's in my collection that have the fake release button.

2MAX

I would guess your bayonet was made in the late 20's early 30's time period. Also your bayonet has two rivets instead of three which I think would put it in the later years of that period.





TKissinger
#63326 08/09/2008 01:59 PM
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Terry,

Found some typos in your TM listings which you may wish to correct.

Your posting number:

1: Tüttlingen (Aesculap has has now Tuttingen)
5: Sohn (Carl Schmidt has now & Shon))
12:Bayreuth several times "Byreuth"
25:Gebr (now Gerbr)
30:Küpper & Sohnius (now Küpper & Schnius)
31:ULM A/D (L. Wörz has now ULMA/D)
35:Göttingen (Th. Jost, now Göllingen)
38:Zannantonio (now Zannatonio)

There are also a lot of cases where the "Umlaut" (¨) has been omitted.

#63327 08/09/2008 08:07 PM
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The name where Aesculap was (and still is) located is Tuttlingen (with a "u", not a "ü"). Wink

#63328 08/09/2008 08:28 PM
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Yes, you are right. Terry only has to insert the L after the double T to make it correct.

If you, being German, see more typing errors, then Terry might be pleased to know.

Kilian

#63329 08/10/2008 02:42 AM
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Thanks for the corrections. I have changed the ones you have listed and will correct the others later.


TKissinger
#63330 08/24/2008 11:26 AM
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Terry,

thank You very much for the info

best regards, Max

#63331 08/30/2008 02:07 AM
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Picked this one up a couple of months ago & am just getting around to adding it, J.E.W. Hellgardt AG, Konigsberg. First time seeing this one too.

FW_JEW_Hellgardt_AG_Konigsberg.JPG (79.73 KB, 623 downloads)

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#63332 08/30/2008 02:52 AM
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Very nice Billy. Definately rare and one I've never seen before. Eek


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#63333 09/01/2008 01:08 AM
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Billy has done it again, found another rare distributor. Thanks for showing.


TKissinger
#63334 09/01/2008 01:48 PM
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Thanks Terry. I've got one more on it's way now which I think is one of those unusual & rarely seen distributors. Will post whenever it arrives Smile


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#63335 09/05/2008 01:01 AM
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Fresh from the bubble wrap, the only one of this mark I've ever seen. I missed out on it almost a year ago but it found it's way to my stable now. Has anyone seen this mark before? Hilt configuration is Lauterjung all the way, early albeit nonmagnetic as is usually seen on these.

It came with an L&E too, Christmas in September Smile

FW_Sautter_Lahr.JPG (93.31 KB, 554 downloads)

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#63336 09/05/2008 02:07 AM
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Nice piece Billy....

The city of Lahr is located west of Bitburg, near the Luxembourg border.
The company appears to be Sautter Messerschmiede.
Check these two Google "hits".

http://www.sautter-lahr.de/15308.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=htt...lr%3D%26as_qdr%3Dall

My understanding of the term Messerschmiede seems to indicate that you may have found a new manufacturer; not a distributor. Albeit, a rather strange location for a manufacturing facility. I look forward to hearing more about this interesting FW bayo.
Wow! It really IS Christmas in September.


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#63337 09/05/2008 02:09 AM
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Billy

Looks like a nice bayonet. Is it a short or long blade.

Just how many LE bayonets do you have?

Denny

Good job on the info. I had already put it in the distributor list, guess I had better change it. Fisher doesn't have that name listed in his reference.


TKissinger
#63338 09/05/2008 02:21 AM
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Terry,

Billy is creating an artificial shortage of LE's and is waiting for the right moment to flood the market.
However, he doesn't have all of them yet. Wink

Linnenbrugger2.jpg (32.67 KB, 533 downloads)

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
#63339 09/06/2008 04:59 PM
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Denny,

Thanks man, I appreciate the info on Sautter. I had no idea they might be an individual manufacturer since never having seen another. The mark is pretty plain too so I was thinking distributor all the way. It's a well made piece which always makes me happy to see after 65+ years. My 5th edition of Fisher doesn't list Sautter at all, does anyone know if they appear in a later version? Another interesting thing is the leather buffer which is the thin type but it has an almost yellow color to it. I really can't believe this one fell into my hands. After letting it slip through my fingers a year ago, I figured I'd never see another so I feel really good anout this one. I'm sur eyou know the feeling Wink

Terry,

At the moment I've only got 4 L&E blades, 1 15mm logo, 2 10 mm logos & 1 with just the letters & no logo. Only a pair of frogs go with them too. I had more but have flipped a few over the years, they always bring a little attention by collectors since maker mark guys like 'em & even people that just want one. From the pieces I've examined, I've found L&E had contracts with several manufacturers from the parts configuration although I've only found one dual marked example which had a '35-'41 Eickhorn mark.

Interesting too is that Wittmann has had one listed for $500 which is quite high IMO, especially since it doesn't have a knot. They're out there if you look, his price is likely why it hasn't sold IMO. This sone is a long model, in fact I've never seen a short model with this mark. Even for me, a short model L&E would be a stretch priced at 5 bills.


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#63340 09/06/2008 07:15 PM
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Re: Sautter, Lahr

There are at least four cities/towns called Lahr in Germany. The city of Lahr, where Sautter is based, is located on the edge of the Black Forest (Schwarzwald). It had under 20.000 inhabitants by 1940. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahr

On their website Messerschmiede Sautter write that they exist since 1891 and their specialty is grinding. I could be the same firm as is stamped on the bayonet. In my view being a knifemaker does not rule out the possibility that they acted as a dealer/distributor for dress bayonets made elsewhere. Personally, I would not list them as a manufacturer for dress bayonets without further evidence or confirmation.

#63341 09/06/2008 08:03 PM
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Billy,

As for the Sautter marked piece, can you rule out Aesculap as the producer? Tuttlingen is a good 50 miles from Lahr, Solingen roughly 300.

#63342 09/06/2008 08:27 PM
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Kilian,

Good question. I can't say if the Sautter piece was manufactured by Aesculap, I've never seen a period Feuerwehr bayonet by them. They did seem to be a smaller, cottage type manufacturer. If they did produce make the FW faschininmesser, it's plausible that they could have purchased parts from another larger manufacturer. Of the pieces in my collection, many of the smaller makers show parts that I would associate with some of the larger production companies.


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#63343 11/30/2008 07:18 PM
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Hi Terry,

Here's a nice Holler distributer marked dress bayo, i just need to find a nice minty frog for it.

Eric

wien_4.jpg (30.68 KB, 438 downloads)
#63344 11/30/2008 11:39 PM
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Eric

Thanks for posting the photo


TKissinger
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