UBB.threads Forums General Interest Other Hobbies and Collections, like sports cars, movies, music,etc Battle Ready 1:16 Tamyia Tiger

At the request of my good friend Rick, here is a write up on the upgrades I did to my 1:16 full option Tamyia Tiger.

In my mind, the Tiger is the perfect tank. Oh, much has been said about it being too big, too heavy, too slow, etc. But when I see a Tiger, my adrenaline starts a pumping. It's ugly and beautiful at the same time. It's mean. It's brutal. It's lethal. It's legendary. It's a Tiger...

I bought my Tiger in 2001, built it and then it sat in a display case for 5 years. Now that I am retired, I have more time for my hobbies so I dusted off the old Tiger and am getting it ready for battle.

The story of building and painting my Tiger is outlined on my site so I won't go into details about that: http://www.ssocr.com/tiger/tiger.htm.

However, I must say that Rick was instrumental in helping me decide on how to finish and number it. I knew I wanted a Kursk Tiger but didn't know if I wanted to go Army or Waffen-SS or what pattern of camouflage to use. Rick did exhautive research on some of the better (and lesser) known Tigers that took part in that famous battle. He is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to Tigers. I finally decided on Tiger S01 of the schwere Panzer-Kompanie (TIGER) 8./SS-Panzer-Regiment 2 "Das Reich". I have been very happy with that decision ever since.

Metal tracks:
Since I was now going to do battle with my Tiger using the Tamyia Battle System, I wanted it to be in top fighting condition. The first thing I did was put on a set of metal tracks from Kenny Kong (bigtank2@hotmail.com). There are several makes of metal tracks now being offered by different vendors at greater and lesser prices than the ones Kenny offers. I have seen them range in price from $60 on e-Bay to over $200 on some of the well known hobby sites. Kenny sells his directly for $160USD shipped to North America from Hong Kong. He was the first to offer metal tracks for the Tiger and I have read many good reviews on his product. I contacted him directly, sent payment and received the tracks, all within 2 weeks. He is very good to deal with. If anyone knows how to properly weather metal tracks, please let me know. http://tiger1.info/products/kong/kenny.html

Rear idlers:
Putting metal tracks on the Tiger will put additional stress on the rear idlers. Both metal tracks weigh in at 51 ounces or over 3 lbs bringing my Tiger's fighting weight to 15 lbs. So I bought a set of idler arm bearings/bushings from Axel's Modellbrau Shop in Germany. They will beef up the idler arms so they don't get bent or broken. http://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de/katalog/en/116-Milit...nsionarms::1426.html

Scale speed and Gear reduction:
Next, I wanted its speed to be closer to scale. Out of the box, the scale speed is over twice that of a real Tiger. There are a few different types of gear reductions but only one (from Schumo Kits) was actually available to buy and the only place that offered them for sale was Axel's Modellbrau Shop in Germany. This slows the Tiger down to scale speed and also increases the torque dramatically. I would like to add here that Axel's Modellbrau Shop is excellent to deal with. Fast shipping and they answered all my e-mails. http://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de/katalog/en/116-Milit...King-Tiger::255.html

Gearbox brace:
The gear reduction kit and metal tracks will put additional stress on the gearboxes. The stock setup for the gearboxes is not very strong with each gearbox being held in place by 3 screws. While surfing, I came across this fellow Canadian's site: http://www.tomsrctanks.com/index.asp

Like Rick, Tom is a true artist. His r/c tanks are a cut above. I phoned Tom and we had a great chat about r/c tanks. He offers several upgrade parts and I elected to buy a gearbox brace from him. I have yet to receive it but will post pics when I do.

Turret rotation:
I had a lot of problems with the rotation of the turret. It continually got snagged and would stop turning. It frustrated me to no end and the last thing I needed was for my turret to get stuck in the heat of battle. I found some fixes on the internet, none of which helped me very much. So, necessity being the mother of invention, I looked at the mechanics myself. I tried several things but finally managed to solve my problems with the solutions outlined on my site at http://www.ssocr.com/tiger/tiger.htm under the section entitled: Suggestions, Problems and Solutions.

Transmitter changes:
I use a Futaba SkySport4 transmitter. The default Tamyia settings have the left joystick control the forward/reverse directions and turret rotation; and the right joystick controls the left/right directions and canon up/down movements. I swapped channels 1 and 4 on the receiver inside the Tiger and set the DMD controller to have the left joystick control the forward/reverse and left/right directions so that moving the Tiger in either direction and turning is controlled by the left joystick. The right joystick was set to control turret rotation, canon up/down movements and (in concert with the right trim button) firing the canon and machine gun.

To avoid the cumbersome movements required to fire the canon and machine gun, I added "fire" buttons to my Futaba transmitter. I bought two "fire" buttons at Radio Shack for about $5 bucks. It works perfectly. This site documents the mods for the "fire" buttons: http://www.fragarmor.org/Advanced%20Hints%203.htm

The left joystick that controls the forward/reverse speed has serrations on it that cause the Tiger to "jump" to the next highest speed. To smooth the acceleration speed, I opened up the transmitter and filed the serrations off the joystick. You can also attain this by removing the metal device that presses down on the serrations. I tried this but found the joystick too light to the touch. Now acceleration is very smooth.

My Tiger is now ready for battle. Bring on the Shermans and T34's...

Bernie, your post could not have come at a better time. Fall is here and I have mine still in the box. I read your post carefully and got a lot of encouragement from your comments on what worked and what didn't. I want mine to be like Whittman's but painting it stopped me dead in my tracks for two years now. Fred Fogleman offered to do it, but he is so far away and I fear damage in shipping.

Any other info you can post would be most appreciated as I really think now I can get this done and have a working model I would be really proud of.

Mark

Excellent write-up Bernie, one of the best I’ve seen on the entire track upgrade requirements. Well worth the investment and the reward will be hours and hours of trouble free operation. Good luck in your first action, looking forward to some pictures too.

Mark if you could come up with a way of safely packing and shipping the big cat I’d paint it for nothing. Short of that I’d certainly be willing to go through the archives and see what we can come with for a finish. Don’t know what type of painting skills you have, but the early Tiger looks good in basic Panzer Gray or Dark Yellow too.

Rick

Early picture of the original S01.

When Rick sent me that pic of Tiger S01 and the brief history of this "cat", I was hooked. Nothing like modelling a known Tiger especially (at least for me) one that was at Kursk.

Bernie, any luck with track finish ideas? I’ve tried one product, Triangle Crafts Sophisticated Finishes rust antiquing solution, didn’t work very well. Its not the type of solution you want to use anyway. The product is a two step process and only works with the two solutions together. Tried using just the “rust” solution and it turns everything black!

The 1st part of the solution is a heavy gray paint with metallic particles. The paint is way to thick for any type of detail work and difficult to get into the nooks and crannies of a tank track. I used a 1/16th T-34 metal track as a test piece, the paint would not flow into the waffle pattern on the bottom side. It also tends to fill and block the holes for the link pins.

The process is also very slow, takes several hours, sometimes overnight to see any real results. The results are also somewhat unpredictable so resultant finishes are uncontrollable, a basic crap shoot as to what you get. One positive note, the product is recommended for outdoor use.

The product was inexpensive and worth a try but not up to our needs I’m afraid.

Rick

I've put the question to many model forums and have come up blank. One guy mentioned that there is a solution similar to blueing but is called "browning".

I was thinking that this followed by a rust "wash" might look natural enough. I would then rub the high spots of the track with fine steel wool to bring out the metal.

I checked the hobby stores around here but no one has heard of it. I would really prefer some kind of blueing/staining agent to do the metal tracks as I think it would wear more naturally on the high spots.

Am currently working on a simple gearbox brace. Stay tuned.

I think I know what the "browning" solutions are but still need to make it to the gun store to be sure. Its just like gun blueing but for the black powder kit guns, gives 'em an older look. I'll try again today.

Ok Rick. Let me know what you find out.

I've come up with my own gearbox brace. In looking at how the gearboxes are attached to the bottom of the hull, I noticed that the bottom was made of a thin piece of what looks like tin. In situations that put a strain on the gearboxes (especially when only one is stressed at a time), this tin would flex to a certain degree. Perhaps not much but enough to put the gearbox out of alignment.

To counter this, I took a piece of 2cm thick aluminum and made a plate for the bottom of the gearbox where they are attached to the hull. I couldn't put it inside the hull beacause of the torsion bars.

So I installed it underneath. I made sure to bevell the front of the plate so that it would not hang up on low articles.

Now, any stress on the gearboxes will be transferred to this piece of sturdy aluminum which will prevent any flexing. The screws at the front of the plate hold down the torsion bar retainer. The other screws are for the gearboxes.

Installed

Nice job Bernie! Now I've seen it all, a Tiger tank with a skid plate!

Rick

What kind of metal are the tracks made of? Browning (and bluing) solutions only work on iron/steel. Birchwood Casey makes an Aluminum Black for aluminum (duh!) and Alloy Black for white metal. Both are used for gun touch ups and should be available at your local gunshop or can be ordered over the internet. Try the Dixie Gunworks website if you can't find them anywhere else. Jewelry supply shops also cary oxidizers for nickle and other metals used for costume jewelry. Many of these products will give varying shades of black or brown depending on the concentration and length of treatment.

The metal tracks are made of zinc alloy. Would they be "blueable"?

Well lads we’ll find out today if the tracks are truly blueable. I’ll be experimenting in the lab with some of the products Vern has mentioned. Thanks for the input Vern, much appreciated. I figured the base metal was going to be an influence one way or the other so I‘m giving everything a try just to see what happens.

With the first product tested the various pieces used are all made from different materials, the tow cable is stainless with a fiber core, the tow cable ends are nickel silver, the track link is zinc alloy (pot metal) and lastly the helmet is plastic. Check the images in the “Let there be Rust” thread, each piece has reacted a little different in tone and depth of ageing.

Also, in order to get the #1 solution to adhere to the track link I first washed the part with Jasco Metal Etch (phosphoric acid), same with the other metal parts. The plastic piece was washed in warm water to remove any mold release residue, something that must always be done with plastic believe me.

Didn’t know about jewelry stores, if I don’t like the results with the gun products we have a really good custom jeweler that’s been in town for ages, I’ll bet he’ll be able to help.

Anyway, to me this is loads of fun so keep the ideas coming, we can always send ‘Igor’ out for more supplies!

Rick

Keep in mind that rust on real tracks was not plentiful because it would have been removed by the tracks grinding into the ground on every revolution. I think most of the weathering on a tracks should be some form of soil/dirt. The high spots would be shiny for obvious reasons.

The Alloy Black should work, the others won't work on zinc. The Jewelry oxidizer would work also. Maybe black everything, polish the tread area, and use a rust wash inside. You guys are getting me interested in building one of these things

Well I’m happy to say that we had success with the Birchwood Casey products. We rounded up the various types of “Black” finishes available, no Alloy Black in our area but most retailers carry Aluminum Black. The Alum Black gave us the best result. We also tested Super Blue and Brass Black. Unfortunately we found no “Plum Brown” so we were unable to test a brown oxidizer. There is one more shop in the area that might have it, I’m going to try and check with them today.

Didn’t have a chance to photo the results yesterday but I will later today. So lets get through the boring stuff…IGOR, My Notes!

O.K., the idea was to come up with a fairly easy process of coloring and prepping these huge 1/16th scale metal tank track sets with some sort of something that would not only result in a useable finish but something durable enough for outdoor use. While the question of durability will have to go unanswered until I can start road testing a set of my own metal tracks, the question of bluing can.

Liquid, cold oxidizers are certainly the easiest and quickest way, but the problem is the base metal, zinc alloy. Sometimes you don’t want the perfect choice however, you want a certain look of age and color. All three products tested gave us varying degrees of gray to black with the average time spent on each piece at about four to six minutes.

Preparation is going to be very important to the zinc and it will take some time but steel wool worked best. Helps remove any mold marks and flashing as well but most importantly it helps the solution penetrate the slick, smooth zinc surface. Once this was done I washed everything in Jasco Metal etch (phosphoric acid) and rinsed in cool running water.

Each part was dipped in each type of solution for a minimum of 30 seconds, one minute max. Let air dry for about the same amount of time and then rinse in cold water to remove the black residue from the part. As with a gun finish, repeating the process will darken the finish. Best result on an individual piece was dip for 1 minute, air dry for three minutes and rinse repeated three times.

Now given the size and scope of these parts I’m thinking about using some small bread cooking tins as dipping tanks and set up a small production line to do handfuls at a time. An acid brush works well at working the solution into any corners it may fail to fill. But swirling the tracks around together submersed in the solution seems to work well at solving this problem.

Dump those through a fine screened kitchen strainer to separate the parts from the solution. Do this over another tin to recoup the solution. Let ‘em sit there for a few minutes then rinse under cool running water. This is an important step and must be done one piece at a time. Rinse each piece while rubbing your fingers over the entire part, vigorously, to remove all residue. Once done only color will remain. Set the completed tracks on a paper towel and let air dry.

Repeat as many times as you wish to darken the color but leaving the parts in the solution for much more than 60 seconds or more dry time than 3 minutes (prior to rinsing) really does nothing to add to the coloring process.

We also did the link pins. Now the pins are not polished and difficult to give the once over with the steel wool but the standard steel Super Blue still gave them a nice blue/black matt finish with the only prep being a wash up with the Jasco prior to dipping.

Although the Brass Black did little or nothing for us, the Aluminum Black came in first with the darkest results. Super Blue was useable, especially if you use a heavy wash. I’ll post some pics of the results later today.

Interesting footnote, in the industrial section of Birchwood Casey’s web site they have some specific zinc alloy blacken and browning products for mass production using a similar one step solution. Its over $100 a gallon, I’m thinking about offering a track coloring service for the larger scales. Crazy eh?

Rick

This is an example of the Brass Black on zinc. Very little change, it did produce a light gray finish with very black highlights but overall not much.

... and the back.

This next example is with the Super Blue, nice medium gray finish with darker toning and just a hint of scaling. Graying along the highlights is a result of the final wash and an example of the solutions inability to make a 100% change in the zinc alloy.

Still, very pleasing to the eye and gives a natural wear look right from the start.

... and the bottom.

This example is the Super Blue with a heavy oil wash applied. The wash is straight burnt sienna (no other colors), 2 coats. You could also use burnt umber for a darker tone or even mix the two.

Oil wash is made using oils by Winsor & Newton suspended in a solution of Mona Lisa mineral spirits. Works right into those nooks and crannies with no problems.

... and the bottom. Steel link pin was colored using the Super Blue as well.

And last but not least the one that produced the best result, the Aluminum Black. The zinc is taking on a nice almost flat black color but with a steel gray overtone in this example. You don’t loose as much toning around the edges either. Add two or three medium oil washes to these and they should look real good.

Given the way the finish looks along the edges I wouldn’t take steel wool or anything else to it to accelerate the signs of wear. I think nature and the normal wear and tear of being driven in the great out of doors will make these tracks look just right.

... and the bottom side.

Just a final note, no wash added to that final example with the Alum Black. The brown toning was a little extra bonus and a welcome surprise.

Hey Rick,

Thanks so much for all that investigative work. It's most appreciated.

I really like the Aluminum Black look. Very natural and looks very real.

Does this mean you have to take the tracks appart and do the links while they are apart?

Sign me up for your track colouring service will ya!!

You know I was thinkin’ about that when I was lookin’ at the pics of your Tiger but assumed that you hadn’t secured the last link pin yet. I don’t know how the complete sets come to the customer but even if the tracks are linked this will still work. It won’t work as well on the link pins but they will still receive somewhat of a coating. The steel wool part will actually be easier, its easier to hold ‘em like a bracelet than one piece at a time.

No, I thought about working on them as an assembled set too and I believe all I need is a bigger dipping tank. Actually I’m thinking about some neat small plastic containers made for painters to carry trim paint in while working versus an entire can of paint. Cheap and disposable dipping tanks. Pour the oxidizer into the “tank” and submerge the whole set at once. We paint and finish the 1/35th sets with them linked (as if ready to install) so I don’t see why we can’t finish these the same way.

Tell you what, you pay for the shipping and I’ll finish the tracks as a retirement gift for my Bud from Canadaland.

Rick

Hey Rick,

The metal tracks are exactly like the resin ones. You get a few extra links with them and they do indeed form a "bracelet". All the link pins are removeable. You could probably practise on the extra links.

You got a deal pal. E-mail me your address and I'll send them on down. I'll pay shipping both ways and buy you all the Canadian beer you can drink next time we meet.

Your on Bud! Sent you an e-mail.

Rick

Anybody thought about making an aluminum lower hull for one of these puppies? Reading through some of the tank forums, I keep seeing problems caused by the plastic hull. And there are a couple of neat suspension upgrades for the idler and road wheels that would work better on a stronger base. Maybe a tig welded lower hull of 1/8" aluminum sheet. If I get one for Christmas, I'll try it

The hull on the Tiger is plastic but is screwed onto a floor made of sheet metal, probably a tin-like material. But it's very thin and can be warped under stress.

But you're right in that a stronger hull/floor combo would probably solve a lot of problems.

It's also very possible that Mr. Tamyia did not foresee the use that these great models would be put to.