UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Green Eyes,silver hilt

In Johnson`s book, volume IV, pg 173, there`s a depiction of an SS Honor sword,silver hilt w/green eyes,etched motto on blade and SS button on reverse cross guard.
Seems it was an option as to what color eyes.

some producers seems to have a option between red and green eyes on silver swords

here is my silver Klaas with green eyes and early portepee with black but

next

see also Johnson IV, 174

That`s a babe for sure.Only saw one of those in all the years I`ve been collecting.
Great score!!

I have a similar sword and was recently told it is a land customs sword - see pics.
Bob

rev.pic

THIS IS MY RED EYED SILVER HILT. LAND CUSTOMS, HEER,SS, WATER CUSTOMS?
Bob

pic#2

pic#3

Bob,

Your WKC sword is a Nr.1016 that is listed in the WKC catalog as a "Zollbeamten-Säbel". They also sold their earlier Nr.63 as a plain P hilt Zollschutz sword and their Nr.64 (without eagle and swastika) as a lion hilt Zollschutz sword.

Orpo:
Thank you very kindly for your response and please forgive my ignorance re: zollschultz.
Does that mean it is a land customs sabre?
Thanks again!
Bob

Yes, Customs Service. The WKC catalog simply lists it as a "Zollbeamten-Säbel" (Customs Official Saber) without specifying if it is for the Land Customs or Water Customs. On the same catalog page it shows the white metal Landzollbeamten-Dolch as Nr.1043 and the gold metal Wasserzollbeamten-Dolch as Nr.1044. The Eickhorn catalog shows their similar lionhead sword Nr.1759 as "Sabel für Wasserzoll" with a leather scabbard if this helps.

I have a WKC silver hilt...Green eyed monster with its original dated SS RZM tag (35) that came direct from a Family in Pennsy.Will post pics when I get the camera out.

another one

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Mrfabulous,

Don't forget that not all silver hilt lionheads had glass eyes. Here is an example of Eickhorn's Imperial/Weimar period Saxon Police Officer sword without glass eyes.

I don't have the Eickhorn catalog number for this sword but it is also shown in the WKC catalog as their Nr.197 prior to 1936.

Here is a view of the lionhead and the Saxon coat of arms on the guard.

Nice stuff guys! There was a similar sword on good `ol eban the other day.

looks like half of them are fakes

Here's my red eye by WMW

quote:

Originally posted by hammertime:
looks like half of them are fakes

Hi hammertime,
please share your knowlegde with us
this is also the opportunity to increase your posts

rakra, I would ask why your saber has the SS Kulturzeichen stamp?

This is an old thread. But nevertheless as -sorry- there are several incorrections I will jump in.

First, the period WKC cataloge clearly states for custom Sabres a GOLDEN hilt. Therefore an original silver hilted lion´s head saber has NO relation to custom. I got several lion´s head custom sabers directly from the former wearer or from the family of the former wearer , with proper portepees, and all were gold hilted. Also the EICKHORN period list clearly shows the gold hilted model(s) for custom officials to wear.

Second, I do own a lot of period wearing pics where such sabers are worn by leaders and NCOs of the SS. I even have wearing pics where the reverse of such sabers is cleaarly shown. Believe me, there is no "SS" engraving or something else to be seen. Imho these SS engravings (eg on the reverse guard or in the handguard) are 99,9999% postwar addings to add value.
This is NOT valid for the extremely rare WKC lion´s or dove head saber with the SS runes in an enameled shield on the crossguard which -naturally- is original. There are also period wearing pics in my collection.
It should be mentioned that in very detailed period photographs you can judge through comparison (with parts of the uniform, medals and much more) that these sabers indeed were silver hilted.

Third, the highly unlucky expression of "SS-Kulturzeichen" concerning the SS stamping (mostly in an octogon but also in a diamond or even simply intertwined) does nothing more or less than proof that a certain item had been delivered through SS delivering channels. It might be that the sign anywhere had been described as beeing "a SS Kulturzeichen" but in general it´s wrong, it´s a kid of proofmark.

It is right that a considerable amount of these (rare) silver lion´s head sabers are faked or at least non period altered (silvering, numbers, SS and much more added in different ways). One of the key sections for examination is the lion´s head itself, where the proper riveting of the blade tang has to be examined.

I hope you do appreciate my red eyed, original saber, which did come directly from the family of the former wearer, as much as I always do when I look at it.

Regards,

Just for the record, the ALCOSO #113 saber, the first known cataloged SS officer saber (to my knowledge), has red "eyes." The catalog drawing of it can be seen in Wittmann's "SS" book at the beginning of the sword section. I'm not raising questions about "eye" color, but just making note of it.

Purely as a technical matter and side issue, English language gun collectors make a distinction between a proofmark and an acceptance (and/or inspection) mark - understanding the intent of the above comment. That said the (wrongly IMO) so-called Type I daggers had the SS marking in a multisided box stamped into the chain link at the time of manufacture, as were all of the Allach ceramics that had the inked or pressed markings applied during the manufacturing process prior to the final steps.

With the description "SS Kulturzeichen" label from the research on German Police swords by Joe Wotka using period documentation that I don't think can be disputed. The net result of which was a fairly long discussion on the WAF about 6 years ago with Joe Wotka as one of the participants (and others).

WAF SS Kulturzeichen Discussion

And my own personal view that like the military acceptance marks (in general) they could serve multiple purposes. With a number of fakes (IMO) using just the Sigrunen, numbers etc. without a "box" of some type - so I look at each example on a case by case basis factoring in everything I've learned over the years to try and detect signs of fakery. Best Regards, Fred

This was an excellent discussion Fred. Thanks for linking it. These silver colored lionhead swords are all very controversial as is the SS Kulturzeichen mark and its several runic variations found without a surrounding box.

Fred, thank you for the link, I still have to read this interesting discussion in full length.
ORPO, I always appreciate your interesting and experienced comments, but in this case I have to disagree. Imho these silver lionhead swords are in no way controversial as prooved by a mass of period wering pics. Here where they were produced and worn there is no controverisal Point of view at all. Would not have been the unfortunate connex to custom (I would like to know who did this???) ot the early days these would be out of doubt for everybody.
And concerning the "Kulturzeichen" I for sure have not read all what can be find about it in the net and in books but up to now I have not seen a copy of the period mentioning of this certain exptression in connex with the intertwined runes either in an octogone or not. so up to now I go with the old saying (transl.) "if you collect german (items) you have to think german" which is NOT meant in ANY political way! But as several englis expressions can hardly be translated to any other language it´s the same with some german expressions and a connex in which the writing stands is important too so I would like to see the period printing.
Regards,

My post has nothing to do with stampings..This post is only about Silver lion head swords for the SS ..
yes of course it is a (documented) fact that a few companies made these swords.. That being said those documented companies would be the ones to own (if original)..As far as a silver lion head being sold as a SS sword..
As lion head swords can and have been silver plated without dis-assembly..

From what I've seen over the years much of the bad reputation seems to be a result of (IMO) fakery with some notable examples in my experience being badly cast silver hilts, various ersatz appliqués, likewise other engravings/stampings, aluminum hilts polished down to bare metal, zinc hilts likewise that were then "plated" with a silver in a bottle craft store preparation etc. etc. Which is not to say that that the lion head sabers were not in use prior to the introduction in 1935 of the SS-Degen. Only that collectors IMO need to be careful. With one of the somewhat related discoveries for me looking at the early SS bayonets being the (albeit limited) use of the 98/05 pattern bayonets that were clearly seen in period photos. With my point being that period photos, catalogs, etc. preferably on a case by case basis can be very helpful in sorting out the legitimate period items from the postwar efforts to deceive. Best Regards, Fred

Wotan,

I mis-spoke when I said "all" of these silver colored lion head swords were controversial when I meant to say "many" of them are. Having said that, I still feel that the fake ones tend to negatively affect the legitimate ones.

I know there were silver colored lion head pommel swords worn during the time period. I showed an example of the Saxon Police Officer silver lion head. The silver colored Justiz eagle head sword is another example that came in both silver and gold colors depending upon who wore them. Sorry that I was not as precise as I should have been.

I "made" a silver lionhead TEARS ago. An Alcoso 113, the one in the picture with the
SS dude looking up.
Being a machinist I can EASILY do this. Had it silver plated at the same place Mohammed Ali had his Caddie gold plated. It`s since burned down(was in a VERY bad area)
Did`nt effect the eyes at all.
Put it back together with a steel piece brazed on to the tang.
Kept it for quite awhile, but sold it with a fire/police knot on it.And yes I did disclose that it was a modified piece.
I don`t do this anymore, but I do replace blades/fix grips... still.

Examine closely!!

There is at least one and, I think, several silver-hilted sabers shown in period catalogs. So, some are real. But, as noted, the fakers have taken up the methods noted to deceive. I would not totally discount any and all silver-hilted sabers as fake, But be very, very careful in buying one.

ORPO, thank you, that I can undersign for 100%!

Because of the fakes the true ones for sure got into miscredits. So the unexperienced collectors do avoid them - which is well for them.

I personally also would avoid each silver saber with any runes engraved/stamped. During my whole time of collecting (which means decades) I have seen only ONE of these sabers with runes applied which I thought that this could have been done during the period.

From some sabers the backstrap/pommel can be disambled but the handguard/crossguard is still fixed. On others (eg. the WKC lionshead) the full grip is rivated and any assembling after disassambling would need additional material and the skills of a ciseleur.
It might be hard to judge a silver hilted saber when it is not one of the "textbook" ones and the silvering is heavily worn so you can hardly judge which Kind of silvering had been used. But if it´s a well conditioned saber like e.g. mine, with 85% frosted silvering and the rest black patination and the certain untouched head rivet or a lightwight aluminium WKC with the certain satin finish (each experienced collector knows that this cannot be reached by polishing down a golden hilt) I dare to doubt that such finishes could be faked.

For me these rare (original) sabers are still in my most appreciated section of edged weapons because of their appearance, their history and their rareness.

Thank you all for your inputs and the interesting and livid discussion which I hope goes on!

Regards,

I like to add a leightweigt model where I hope you can see the satin finish which imho cannot be faked and a pommel rivet how it should look like (here do heavy, silvered models look a little different!).
Regards,

I have always been attracted to the silver hilt sabres and have had several over the years. All gone now, except for this keeper; an ornate dovehead by Paul Weyersberg. It has a 37 inch blade, retains most original finish and is very impressive in hand.

That "satin" finish is clear anodizing.Ony for aluminum.
many lightweight swords are gold anodized.

"Third, the highly unlucky expression of "SS-Kulturzeichen" concerning the SS stamping (mostly in an octogon but also in a diamond or even simply intertwined) does nothing more or less than proof that a certain item had been delivered through SS delivering channels. It might be that the sign anywhere had been described as beeing "a SS Kulturzeichen" but in general it´s wrong, it´s a kid of proofmark."

Wotan, are you saying that you would expect to see this mark on
a silver hilted sword used by the SS similar to the Navy acceptance stamps?

Hello BAMA.
No, because these lionhead sabers (and the certain silver dovehead sabers as Barry Brown has shown us a wonderful nice one) usually were delivered through private channels like uniform stores or direct manufacturer channels.
Regards,

Thank you Wotan, it is my belief the stamp should not be there and just wanted to make sure I understood you.

Personally I would be careful with using the word never. About 5 years ago or so there was a lion head saber on the forum with what appeared to be a period cast in place set of Sigrunen on the langet, an etched blade along with the SS Kulturzeichen on the hilt that appeared to be an old stamping. And other than some aging - it seemed to be untouched. With the often repeated old collectors tale of the SS Kulturzeichen being Diebitsch's "personal mark", "trademark - whatever" in a rather lengthy discussion elsewhere having no discernible basis in TR period evidence/publications. Best Regards, Fred

get a load of the silver "ss" sword on ebay dmzantiques

?????????
No sword listed or in closed auctions..

it had the applied ss runes and a mein eher heist treue etched on the blade...

I am very sorry for bringing this thread back to the top.....fantastic read here by the way......But I see on a "big guy" dealer's site a "Silver hilted lionhead with green eyes". The dealer does not attribute this sword to anything like the SS or customs...but the price has me scratching my head, it's only $2100.00, that's pretty cheap for one of these....if it's real, right? this sword is not maker marked or marked in any other way. So what the heck could it be if not SS or customs? This is a pretty "high ranking" dealer that has a great reputation.....at 2100.00 this is within my grasp but after reading this thread....I don't know? any thoughts from anybody?

Patrick

What is unusual about this sword is the quillion has a Lionhead which is seldom seen on Nazi era Lionshead swords. That said this sword is a beauty.

Yup, it's a gorgeous sword....but what the heck is it? SS, customs, etc..? Why couldn't somebody buy this sword and find an early SS knot to tie on it and BOOM Bob's your uncle...instant SS sword! But would it be correct? that what I'm trying to figure out.....I don't want to buy something for that type of money only having to "explain" what it is later on down the road if the need to sell ever came up.....

Buy a SS nco degen and be a ton happier. Enough purported ss stuff. Otherwise spend 300 on a nice
plain silver army and put a knot on it. You will be happier .Tell visitors your uncle gave it to you.

With the pictures here so far - what is it? A craft store silver in a bottle "plating", solid silver or ..........? Are the eyes replacements? With the low quality images here IMO leaving a lot of questions unanswered. Best Regards, Fred

That's an Emil Voos pattern and pretty hard to find!!