UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum 2 Fallschirmjager Etch on a Herder Blade

I am reposting this etch here in order to start a further discussion after getting some negative feedback on this on WAF.

I am hoping that Wayne and other etch bayonet guys will chime in.

The most telling and concerning feedback that was posted there had to do with the 2nd Fallschirm Division not being formed until 1943, which makes an etch dedication to this unit not very likely.

And, yes, Klaas type etches are found on Herder marked blades.

Here it is and let the games begin.

This is to answer ALL concerns from the EXPERTS concerning the origin of this example.

To Andy B.: The dedication was referred to at that time as a Division. It was used AT that time,
IN that time and SINCE that time.
2. The Frog as well as the Scabbard were PURCHASED by the Klaas firm. Just as a guess they had many
creates of these items at their disposal. Neither of these items have ANY significance to the originality
of the example John wanted to share with you.

To Ron Weinand: A LOT of problems? Really. Please read the above about Frogs and Scabbards. You of all people
should know better. Are you saying that this example is a reproduction, and IF SO prove it!!!
2. You said although they (Klaas) MIGHT have produced this piece for the Richard Abr. Herder Company. What EXACTLY makes you say for CERTAIN that it wasn't made for Herder. There are numerous examples of Herder "Special Order" pieces as well as regular production etched examples produced by Klaas (for Herder) as you SHOULD know. If not, please review page 28 of my book to refresh your memory...

To Billy G.: The scabbard has wear because it's been around for 70 years or so. You should look that good when you reach 70!
It's a Scabbard, just a Scabbard and has NOTHING to do with the beautiful bayonet or the etch on it. It CAME with
the piece. That's all, end of story.
2. Your assuming that Klaas DIDN'T make etches for Herder..PROVE to me they didn't. This etch in my opinion, was NOT a Unit,
Company, Regiment or Division buy as were most other etched dress examples. See my points after I have addressed some of the
other experts on the thread.

To Frogprince: See my notes below.

To Schlange: Rivets ARE the Klaas type used by that Company on MANY dress bayonets. What EXACTLY makes you think they are not?

Please send me your book on RIVETS so that I can Compare all the dress bayonets in my book with your expertise.

My NOTES:
This example was NOT sold as a remembrance memento by a Unit, Regiment or Division or retail shop. It does NOT have the REMEMBRANCE Motto included above the Military Citation. The son would already know it wasn't a Remembrance memento since he was already serving with the 2. Division. And if it wasn't a remembrance memento what else could it have been. Any LIGHTS coming on
out there???

Ok, I'll spell it out for all of you. This example was purchased by the parents (or parent) who walked into the Richard Abr.
Herder shop and special ordered this bayonet for a son they were quite proud of. Whether he ever wore it or not no one
knows. Herder, as was customary, gave the order to Klass and they filled it. A beautiful etched dress bayonet gift to their son.

Now if there are no more concerns about the authenticity of this bayonet please just ENJOY the beautiful job done by Klass.
John is simply trying to share this etch, never seen before, with all of us

Thank You for Your Consideration,
Wayne H. Techet

In a origin designation of that Division was never used the name as one word as is here in etch, so anyway the Division was used mainly on postwar fakes as unit on S84/98 bayonets,so for me remain a problem who would ask for etch in 1943 for the KS98 as personell?.Prior to this time i dont known about real confirmed sample that have a division as soldier main unit,maybe You known about others? The frog maker stamp, same as the LW eagle are for me little problematic as good visible stamp dies,what would be a LW stamp on a dress frog obtained from parents of soldier?. But certainly from that photos i couldnt confirm is ok or not. Dress bayonets are not my area, anyway i have problem with the name of unit in german language and the style as is etched.b.r.Andy

I asked for opinion a good expert of german daggers and KS98 of German forums, not one minimum 3 forums, Emil aka Juvavum, he answered similar concerns about the piece,
my personal resume:
-when i would native german i would have problems with designation of the unit in lower case and in one word, because its not correctly german grammar,even not used 1943 style
-as mentioned upper the Division remain for me problematic a etched unit, even not memory dedication there, i dont known prior this time about similar real piece with division etch, only on S84/98 fakes, maybe could someone provide info about real pieces??
-teoretically it could be a postwar origin etch on Herder blade? i couldnt comment the etch as i am not expert on it, same as the rivets and other parts.
-i dont believe the frog was buyed by maker, more real by distributor or by soldier
-with similar oval frogs stamps were known on russian reproductions, of last decade
- for me a little problematic FL eagle proof? why on a dress frog, same as the brown colored frog is not typical LW stiching and period for 1942 like mentioned by FP
This is only my opinion,maybe i am wrong, but we all have freedom to make our opinions, to here presented pieces.b.r.Andy

Where did you get this bayonet, John ?

Ok, here goes.

I purchased this bayonet from Wayne and have his COA on it.

I am not concerned about the frog and did not buy this for the scabbard nor the frog. If the frog is wrong, then I have no issue just taking it off and junking it, so let's not talk about that anymore.

I am more concerned about the date discrepancy between the date the 2nd fallschirm was formed and the existence of an etch from 1943. I am also a little concerned about the language used (division) as brought up by several people in this forum and WAF.

I consider Wayne to be THE expert on etched bayonets and hold him and his opinion in the highest regard. That being said, I am not a believer in absolute infallibility (unless we are talking about the Pope).

John

Comments
To Andy B:
What part of "IT WAS A GIFT" do you not understand?
In researching German Fighting Units in WW 2 the term division was used several times indicated on a map.
The German's DID use the term and it was NOT capitalized. As previously mentioned, the Frog and Scabbard are just incidental pieces that came with the etched bayonet. They CAME WITH the bayonet... get over it!
Yes, the term DIV. for Divison has been used on reproductions. My book page 53 take a look!! do you see ANY resemblance
of this type of font to what is on the etched dress bayonet in John's possession?
There was NO Remembrance motto on the example because the PARENTS PLACED the order!!! Can you understand that.
See my book page 76 and 77 for an SS example of a GIFT from Father to son and no Remembrance Motto is seen on
that example either!! These types of GIFTS (Special Orders) were produced throughout the Reich during 1933 onward.
I have studied etched dress bayonets for many many years and stand behind this example 100%.
This example of an etched bayonet is CLASSIC Klaas in EVERY way.

Wayne H. Techet

The using of similar one word unit is not typical in german language as mentioned, the unit started life was february 1943, and in same year was stopped the production of KS98 dress bayonets, provided origin documents of german bayonet researcher.When You look to origin Soldbuch Eintragungen or cuff title of Fallschirm-Jaeger Rgt. You will see how was normally the unit written. I dont have Your book so i couldnt compare, same as i am not expert on KS98 like mentioned before. My opinions i have already mentioned.b.r.Andy
Added a S84/98 fake panel with one word for Panzerdivision, added by non german, because they understand not german grammar.

To Andy B.
I don't care WHEN the 2. Falldivision was formed. For all I care it could have been in 1944.
This is the LAST time I will tell you that IT WAS A GIFT from the parents to their son. Try your best
to understand that FACT. They could have ordered it in 43 44!!!
I will no longer address that issue with you. Use a dictionary if your not familiar with the term GIFT.
Thank you for showing me a Panzerdivision reproduction. Is it possible that the individual who actually produced
this example would have checked the spelling carefully BEFORE producing it? He would have wanted to sell it as an original
wouldn't he? THEREFORE, I conclude that the spelling and term are CORRECT.

Wayne H. Techet

Andy,

Please repost those pictures here, from your hard drive.

DO NOT use photobucket, please. Your account is locked.

Dave

I mean that from the images above, your PHOTOBUCKET account was locked by photobucket

Sorry but i dont have other free posting account. Dave please You could remove my previous posts.
Klaas LW etch piece, is not 100% identical with above piece but of well confirmed piece, by various german experts on KS98 area on MFF forum, its on Robert Klaas,Solingen marked blade.
Note the details of LW eagle and swastika.
Is clear this Klaas etch is little different in details as the first here presented. Unfortunally i dont have good pictures of highest quality of the first bayonet.
Second picture is commemorative logo, with correct first upper case letters in all words as normal should be. The side panels should be similar as here discussed piece, i would await a "Ges.Gesch." on other blade as is Klaas production.
Make anyone his own opinion.b.r.Andy

To Mr.Techet one question, do You speak fluently german? Thanks.
The etch on S84/98 was clearly declared as fake because of wrong writing. b.r.Andy

Wayne,

Some clarifications,...

My point about scabbard condition referred to concerns raised by other collectors regarding the amount of wear on the scabbard surface. I mentioned that the scabbard & its condition were irrelevant to the ultimate question as to whether or not the Fallschirmjager etch is period & I stand by that. Originality of the etch should be limited to its own attributes & not of the additional items included with it.

My comment on whether or not Klaas produced etches for Herder was noncommittal since I was not in possession of my references at the time. I made no assumption that Klaas either did or didn't make etches for Herder but I certainly didn't rule out that possibility.

If you reread my post (which was posted on WAF), I actually said I thought the etch looked period. Not sure why you were defensive about my comments when what I said did not question the validity of the etch but only addressed others' comments.

To John Z.it would be great to see better photos of the etch here, as You are expert on that area You should compare side by side with other Klaas LW etch. b.r.Andy

Due some information, from Czech republic are comming very good or excellent German TR dress bayonet with postwar etching blades.


Schlange


https://mojalbum.com/schlange88

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthread...1299#Post331299

Text image version:

Fred,

Sent you a PM on resolving the posting Issues.

Billy, Thank You!! Maybe it's a work in progress - here is the modified text I posted above.