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Eickhorn 1st Model Navy #330726
07/30/17 01:35 PM
07/30/17 01:35 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
B
Baz69 Offline OP
Baz69  Offline OP

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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
Here's one I just picked up, I've been looking for one of these for a long time, the bonus with this one is the grip.
Gary

Attached Files
1 - 1.jpg (336 downloads)
1 - 2.jpg (340 downloads)
1 - 3.jpg (340 downloads)
1 - 7.jpg (340 downloads)
1 - 10.jpg (337 downloads)
1 - 12.jpg (333 downloads)
c - 1.jpg (330 downloads)
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #330731
07/30/17 07:26 PM
07/30/17 07:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 753
Europe
dr73 Offline
dr73  Offline

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 753
Europe
That's a magnificent piece! Congratulations!

Regards
Danny

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: dr73] #330732
07/30/17 07:44 PM
07/30/17 07:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,226
Calgary
JohnZ Offline
JohnZ  Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,226
Calgary
Very nice. Congrats Gary.


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: JohnZ] #330747
07/31/17 05:49 PM
07/31/17 05:49 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,464
england
seany Offline
seany  Offline

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,464
england
You really do find some nice daggers well done


Regards Sean
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: seany] #330748
07/31/17 06:08 PM
07/31/17 06:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 46
Oklahoma
M
Mikes73 Offline
Mikes73  Offline
M
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 46
Oklahoma
Beautiful piece, great scabbard too.

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Mikes73] #330752
08/01/17 09:24 AM
08/01/17 09:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,284
Texas
WW2-Collector Offline
WW2-Collector  Offline

Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,284
Texas
Gary wonderful example for your world class collection ! See you at the Max Show my friend.


Collecting Interests - Heer Daggers - Waffenrock - Portraits - http://WW2-Collector.com
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: WW2-Collector] #330759
08/01/17 11:56 AM
08/01/17 11:56 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
B
Baz69 Offline OP
Baz69  Offline OP

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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
Thank you guys, I do appreciate all of your comments.

This piece exhibits all the attributes of an Eickhorn product including the lack of rope design on the reverse of the scabbard rings, that's what clinched it for me as a piece that had always been together. I just need to find one with it's original pommel now.

Gary

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #330776
08/02/17 09:21 AM
08/02/17 09:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Hello Gary, i Know this is my first post on here but I have been a collector of navy daggers for a number of years. what I see here is a standard M38 Eickhorn pommel, with a 33-35 maker marked blade I would expect to see a "replacement pommel" which would have replaced the ball pommel in 1938,the crossguard is also their later M38 type and not their smaller M29 guard which you would expect to see with this maker mark. The scabbard is in my opinion a WKC product, you can tell this by the thin girth rings, Eickhorn used thick girth, the lightning bolt and acanthus leaf design is also typical of WKC with the outside lines of the acanthus leaves stopping short of going all the way down to the chape (this changed on the WKC M38). And the chape is also the WKC designed one. The lack of the rope pattern on the reverse side of the eyelets is a WKC feature and not Eickhorn, there is an Eickhorn M29 on ulricofengland where you can check this out and a WKC on wittmanns site which shows eyelets the same as your scabbard. It could be a mixture due to updating but there is no way of knowing.
Best regards Russ.

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330780
08/02/17 12:06 PM
08/02/17 12:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
B
Baz69 Offline OP
Baz69  Offline OP

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Joined: May 2001
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England
Hello Russ

I'm always glad to see a new member post and one who obviously knows his stuff, as far as the lack of rope design on the eyelets I have been looking in TW's Navy book on Pg 205 where you'll see a similar lack of this design on a scabbard. I agree that the pommel is not the replacement type, personally I do not have a problem with that as long as it is an Eickhorn product, as far as the cross guard goes this piece certainly has a large centre block as in my experience you would expect on an Eickhorn guard from this period. As far as the girth of the rings is concerned I think it may be the photo's as they seem the same as my other Eickhorns.

Thanks and I do appreciate your thoughts.
Gary

Last edited by Baz69; 08/02/17 12:08 PM.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #330782
08/02/17 12:59 PM
08/02/17 12:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Hi Gary, Its funny you should mention the dagger in Wittmanns book on page 205 as this dagger actually belongs to me, Tom told me that himself and Brian Madeira (not sure if I spelt his name right) took possession of Robert Waitts collection when he passed away, I latter purchased this dagger from Brian Madeira. I posted it in warrelics forum, it is on page 3 Early Eickhorn 1st model Kriegs, notice the earlier Eickhorn guard with the smaller centre block which is correct for their 33-35 maker mark. After I had this dagger a while I noticed on multiple WKC rope band scabbards the same features that are on mine and after a lot of research I had to come to the conclusion that it is a WKC scabbard. I'll be honest I was not happy as I prefer textbook daggers. It is known that Eickhorn and WKC did trade with each other, although some will dispute that they traded navy parts, but why not. If you look at page 204 of TWs book which shows the Eickhorn catalogue of 33 you will see rope and the more modern leaf band scabbards available, if Eickhorn were concentrating production on the more modern leaf band scabbards then its possible they acquired rope band scabbards from WKC, so the scabbards on both of our daggers could be ok, this is only a possibility though.
Best regards Russ.

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330783
08/02/17 01:23 PM
08/02/17 01:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Just like to add that my dagger on page 205 is an Eickhorn 1671/1672 with an etched blade and release button fit with a WKC scabbard, it is not as TW says a number 10 (which has a plain blade and no button) with these features as available options.
Best regards Russ.

Last edited by Russ1; 08/02/17 01:26 PM.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330786
08/02/17 02:01 PM
08/02/17 02:01 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
B
Baz69 Offline OP
Baz69  Offline OP

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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,509
England
Hello Russ

It's funny then now there are at least two Eickhorn daggers with these bands, nobody knows what went on at this time, I look at the fit and patina on my dagger and I see total consistency in both, there's no doubt in my mind that it has always been together like this, I haven't got any WKC 1929 pattern daggers to compere the scabbard to so it's difficult to say one way or another what makers used the bands. I did notice that your dagger was not a No10, I have found that both Eickhorn and especially WKC would supply you with whatever you wanted if you had the money for it.

Thank you for your thoughts, I shall keep my eyes open for a nice WKC to compere my dagger to.
Gary

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #330794
08/02/17 03:02 PM
08/02/17 03:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
I've had quick look and found what appears to be the same scabbard on warrelics forum page 1, Reichsmarine dagger M29 by WKC (thebig). Its an earlier one but the scabbard looks the same with the smooth surface on the reverse eyelets and same bolts and acanthus leaves + chape.
Best regards Russ

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330796
08/02/17 04:47 PM
08/02/17 04:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Also if you scroll down to post 5 on the same thread you can see another WKC with the same eyelets.
Best Russ.

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330811
08/03/17 05:58 AM
08/03/17 05:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Gary if you look on page 212 in your TW book there is a good picture of an Eickhorn M29 showing the crossguard and scabbard band.
Best Russ.

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330862
08/05/17 11:16 AM
08/05/17 11:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 4,675
USA
Billy G. Offline
Billy G.  Offline

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 4,675
USA
Gary,

That's a super looking 1st model KM & the grip is a screamer!


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Billy G.] #330891
08/06/17 04:53 PM
08/06/17 04:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 244
Texas, USA
S
stratocaster3 Offline
stratocaster3  Offline

S
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 244
Texas, USA
Gary, Russ;
I too have an early 1933-35 Eickhorn 1929 pattern daggers. It also has an ivory grip but retains the original reed and cattail over cresting wave pommel. The scabbard is the overlapping leaf variety. My example has the smaller cross guard block that you refer to Russ. It is subtle but it is slightly smaller. The quillion arms are thinner than the examples from late 1930's on. The scabbard is an enigma. It looks to me to be one similar to the early WKC scabbards with the serrated eyes without the sleeves. However, my old eyes can't detect a dimes worth of difference between the early WKC and Eick. overlapping leaf scabbards anyway. They look very, very similar to me. Like Gary's beautiful dagger, mine has the same even patina and wear across all parts and has a set in place tarnished silver bullion porteppe. Its clearly been together for a long time.

Perhaps you are on to something regarding trading of parts between companies. Alternatively, both companies could have used the same third party source for scabbards early on. Also, using up NOS (the thrifty Germans never discarded anything) seems a possible way to introduce variation.

Just a side note, I also have an extremely early 1929 pattern Eickhorn in mint condition. It is from the very earliest production and has the stamped squirrel above C.E. in an oval on the plain plated blade. As Tom Wittmann mentions, these early cross guards have the "flower" (like Alcoso always retained) on the reverse cross guard. This is a hold over from the 1919 pattern cross guards. So there are at least 3 different styles of cross guards used on " 1st model and 2nd model" Eick navies depending on the vintage.
All I can say is that in my experience, these early daggers display more variation than those from later production. Much to learn still IMO which is what keeps this hobby interesting.
Best, Rick


Wanted: German Naval Edged Weapons and Related Accouterments
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: stratocaster3] #330894
08/06/17 06:26 PM
08/06/17 06:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,226
Calgary
JohnZ Offline
JohnZ  Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,226
Calgary
I have a double oval Navy 1 with rope band scabbard... no button. And naval depot marked.

I also have a Navy 1 with single oval TM and chased scabbard.

Attached Files
Obverse.JPG (164 downloads)
Reverse.JPG (165 downloads)
Obverse Grip.JPG (163 downloads)
Reverse Grip.JPG (162 downloads)
Obverse Crossguard.JPG (162 downloads)
Reverse Crossguard.JPG (161 downloads)
TM & Depot Marking.JPG (161 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: stratocaster3] #330896
08/06/17 07:01 PM
08/06/17 07:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Hello Rick, thats very interesting and if you have the time i would like to see the scabbard you mention. I do believe there were only a handful of companies who were actually manufacturing navy daggers and generic parts in the Third Reich period and that there was a lot more interaction between companies than a lot of other collectors think, this could be how we often see mixed companies parts. Of course there are what we know to be and mostly see the textbook examples. Together with a friend of mine i have just written a book on identifying lightning bolt and hammered pattern Third Reich navy daggers which also shows intricate details that link smaller companies/producers to the larger ones like Eickhorn and WKC, its only a small publication of 86 pages so nothing on the scale of Wittmanns as it is specifically aimed at this subject (plug intended lol). Your right there is still much to learn about navy daggers, with updating and not many manufacturers they are not like some other types of daggers and I also find them very interesting to study.
Best Russ.

Last edited by Russ1; 08/06/17 07:03 PM.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330897
08/06/17 07:15 PM
08/06/17 07:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
R
Russ1 Offline
Russ1  Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
England
Very nice example John, it has the thick girth rings and rope pattern going all the way around the eyelets which are different features on Eickhorns rope band scabbards compared to WKCs.
Best Russ.

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #330914
08/07/17 01:27 PM
08/07/17 01:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 76
Wim Offline
Wim  Offline
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 76
Very fine piece.


Regards, Wim

Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Wim] #330989
08/09/17 10:34 PM
08/09/17 10:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1
Illinois
M
Militaria hunter Offline
Militaria hunter  Offline
M
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1
Illinois
Gorgeous piece, nice find


Cheers,

Jim
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Militaria hunter] #336707
02/17/18 09:31 AM
02/17/18 09:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,226
Calgary
JohnZ Offline
JohnZ  Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,226
Calgary
I recently picked up this Eickhorn Navy dagger. It started out as a 1st Navy, then had a 3rd Reich pommel replacement. It has a plain blade, no button release and a small double oval serrated tail over CE maker mark, all of which make this interesting. Also, the rope style scabbard fittings. But, what convinced me was the Naval depot markings, including the matching item numbering of O.749. This is identical in all respects, except for the refit pommel and the accountability number, to the one shown in Wittmann's navy book on page 212.

It is god to see the site back in action.

J

Attached Files
Obverse.JPG (95 downloads)
Reverse.JPG (97 downloads)
Obverse Hilt.JPG (98 downloads)
Reverse Hilt.JPG (99 downloads)
TM dbl serr CE.JPG (98 downloads)
TM M O.749.JPG (96 downloads)
Obverse Blade.JPG (98 downloads)
Reverse Blade.JPG (96 downloads)
Obverse Crossguard.JPG (96 downloads)
Reverse Crossguard.JPG (93 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Russ1] #336734
02/18/18 07:15 AM
02/18/18 07:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 397
France
Flyingdutchman Offline
Flyingdutchman  Offline

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 397
France
Gentlemen,

that's indeed a very interesting discussion.

Just one hint:
When Vic Diehl and I did our first book, I visited the Federal Archives in Germany and the archives at Muerwik. I tried hard, but I was never able to obtain any written proof about any parts coming from different companies and/or used by different makers. That does not mean it never happened, but to explain an item with generic parts is just a speculation.
Different to the mass produced WH and WL daggers after the mid 1930's the German Navies had an ongoing demand for daggers, so the companies involved knew what to produce.
For obvious reasons the 1919 and 1921 patterns are difficult to judge, but the 1929 pattern daggers (theres no such thing like a "first pattern", except maybe the daggers worn by the Prussian navy around 1820 :-) should follow some specific company criterias. If they do not, they may be perfectly legit, but its unfortunately always a matter of believing in things.

I am not referring to the dagger shown in the initial post, this is just a general remark.

Best;
Hermann

Last edited by Flyingdutchman; 02/18/18 07:39 AM.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #336770
02/19/18 07:35 AM
02/19/18 07:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,479
at home
wotan Offline
wotan  Offline

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,479
at home
Hello, good to meet here again!
These are some old scans of my EICKHORN "1st Mod" navy. I think I once have to do newer pics but for now we can see what we want.
I personally think this is a very close to the year 38 one.
Regards,

Attached Files
MOD 1 Mod 1.jpg (48 downloads)
MOD 1 Mod 2.jpg (49 downloads)
MOD 1 Mod 3.jpg (51 downloads)
MOD 1 Mod TM.jpg (50 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #336793
02/20/18 06:42 AM
02/20/18 06:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 341
Planet Earth.
Oleg67 Offline
Oleg67  Offline

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 341
Planet Earth.
Hello Wotan,
an amazing dagger with a very typical M29 crossguard and scabbards eyelets.
Best,
Oleg.


Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

John, 15:13

www.kriegsmarinedolch.de
Re: Eickhorn 1st Model Navy [Re: Baz69] #336795
02/20/18 09:27 AM
02/20/18 09:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,479
at home
wotan Offline
wotan  Offline

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,479
at home
Hello Oleg, thank you for looking and your statement. I do own this dagger for quite a long time and due to my personal experience and the overall look I always have liked it. But I never habe been totally sure because the load of messed with M29 navy dagger. I am very pleased about your classification and estimation!
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.

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