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Hi. I have always had interest in the WWII memorabilia. I always wanted to have an SS dagger and it was until recently that I became able to afford one ( not a very expensive one, but a decent one). I have checked The Witmann's website, lakeside trader, Johnson's etc... I know the general advise is to get the first dagger from a certified vendor.However, I have been looking around and found this dagger in a military antiques store. Is supposed to be an early partial rohm, the scabbard has a leather cover ( ?). One of my friends advised not to put my money there. I would like to hear your opinion guys. Check the pics. THanks a lot

nazidagger4.jpg (47.02 KB, 279 downloads)
nazidagger3.jpg (49.44 KB, 279 downloads)
Last edited by fitoeras; 04/17/2017 09:29 PM.
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more pics

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The dagger is a partially ground Rohm made by EP&S. Looks OK from the pictures.

Leather covered scabbards are not seen very often, but they do exist. Whether the leather has been there pre-1945 can't be discerned from the photos. It should have a well done seam on one side.

The box is nice but not original

Dave

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Really, that's quite a find for a first dagger. You will do well to buy it, if it is reasonably priced. "Partial Rohm's" are very desirable and have become pricey.

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Thanks for your comments. And thanks for your educative postings Dave. I have read both about fake daggers and tried to match this dagger with every possible flaw you have pointed.
I am also in doubt about the leather. Here are some extra pics of the scabbard and the blade.

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Don't you think the ring of the scabbard is not very well welded?

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Seriously?
Imo the grip doesnt belong to this dagger or even might be fake.
Wrong type of SS-button which we normally don't see on Pack. There are exceptions.
Also the guards are not the typical house made E.P.& S. types that they used.
Blade looks okay but it is a parts dagger for sure imo.
Watch out on Gunbroker.

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The dagger is a complete post war reproduction.

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Every aspect and component of this dagger can be broken down and discussed separately. But you need not go any further than the blade itself. E.Pack, during the 3rd Reich era, did not make a single SS Rohm blade.............period. Therefore, there cannot be any partial or Ground Rohm SS blades either.

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Yes. Total reproduction or parts dagger... Can't see it that well on my cellphone.
But, stay away from this dagger.
He's bad.

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Originally Posted By: JR

Every aspect and component of this dagger can be broken down and discussed separately. But you need not go any further than the blade itself. E.Pack, during the 3rd Reich era, did not make a single SS Rohm blade.............period. Therefore, there cannot be any partial or Ground Rohm SS blades either.


Ohw yes Bro! Absolutely right!
How could I have missed this fact!?
Must have been somewhere else with my thoughts. lol.

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I am not completely sure about that... Check this dagger out:

http://ibuyworldwar2.com/ground-rohm-ss-dagger-e

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Yes, it is true that E. Pack did make an SS dagger, and I've had a few over the years. But the point being, they never made an SS ROHM blade

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That's Darin's website. He's relative new to the hobby, and misidentified damage to the blade and trademark as being signs that it was a ground Rohm. But it's not. Pack never made any SS Rohm blades.

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Thanks for that valuable information!

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I thought I’d chime in here since I noticed a link to one of my daggers posted in a couple of comments in this thread.

First of all, JR is absolutely correct about the posted dagger not being good - I would personally pass on it if I were reviewing it (based on the photos provided that is). I’ll take it a step further and point out a couple of details that most folks will be able to see once highlighted regardless of your experience level.

If you look at the breast of the grip eagle and compare it with a genuine Pack grip eagle, you’ll see that the one here has more of an upside down triangular shape when compared with a genuine Pack, which is more boxy (squared). Also, notice how the outsides of the eagle’s legs continue gracefully with the flow of the wreath? This is not the case with a genuine Pack eagle. Hard to describe in words, but if you compare a genuine eagle to this you should be able to see the differences.

The SS roundel is perhaps the most obvious detail between the two. Simply put, a genuine Pack’s SS runes do not touch the white border. The photos from the OP aren’t great (there is a lot of reflection) but it is clear the runes touch the border.

Now to the Rohm question… JR mentioned that Pack “never" produced Rohm SS daggers, but to my knowledge there is no period documentation (“period” being the keyword here) stating this fact. If any of you know otherwise, please feel free to post a copy of the document and I’ll certainly yield.

Regarding my dagger that was linked to here in this thread (http://ibuyworldwar2.com/ground-rohm-ss-dagger-e), it may well not be a ground Rohm (nobody can know for certain since the inscription was ground away), but the evidence that I see with the dagger in hand says otherwise. In the photos below, note the striations across the width of the blade, which are consistent with other Ground Rohm examples I’ve personally owned. Also note the dark tone of the recessed areas of what I believe to be remnants of the inscription. The tone matches that of the makers mark on the same side of the blade.





For comparison, I’m also posting below some photos from an Eickhorn field ground Rohm SA dagger that I own. These photos show similar (albeit larger) areas where portions of the inscription still remain in tact. As you can see these could easily be mistaken as “pot marks” (or damage) to the blade, but when put into context with the other evidence (e.g. the grinding marks) it tells an obvious story.





Each collector has their own opinions, which are usually based on their own experiences. In my case, while I may be “new to the hobby” relative to some of the older dealers and collectors like Wittmann, Johnson, etc, that doesn’t necessarily speak to my experience. My website has been on page 1 of Google for key terms like “german daggers”, “ss daggers”, “sa dagger” and the like for years so I’ve been blessed with the privilege to purchase and handle quite a significant number of various types of daggers, with over 90% of them purchased directly from veterans or their families. I’ve personally owned more than 10 ground rohm SA and SS daggers (some factory ground and some field ground), as well as several partial and full Rohm SA and SS daggers, and to my eyes, and based on my experience, the SS dagger I have posted as a Ground Rohn bears the hallmarks of a ground Rohm. Having said that, I don't manufacture facts, so if proof surfaces from the period stating that Pack produced zero Rohm SS daggers then this discussion is over as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, in my opinion there is always room for daggers to surface that challenge theories and expectations, especially with so few of these Rohm SS daggers having been produced in the first place.

Best,
Darren

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I agree also the first dagger is made up of varied parts..with a well executed laser etched inscription. Once a Ernst pack Blade now ruined by a bogus etch.

Darrens dagger brings questions which have been stated above could it be or not possible for Ernst Pack to have produced Rohm inscriptions in a minimal production of lets say 100 ?

We see not even a handful of Ed Gembruch SS daggers and only one Wilhelm Kober SS dagger in existence. If Gembruch could make 5 or 6 daggers and no more seen after that ..why not Ernst Pack? ..The possibility does exist and must exhaust all efforts of research first before closing the door on a 1 of a kind item.

I have been studying Darrens dagger from the point it has been posted on his site and cant seem to find any link due to the poor photos on his site proving his is a Pack SS. To me its just another standard Pack SS em.

Upon viewing the the new close up and very clear photos on this thread..I am seeing a couple of pock marks which since I do not have it in hand have come up with that conclusion that the old pics make it appear to be blade rot.

When I said above exhaust research first above..this is what the next step should be first before throwing this in the bin. Take a look at the 2 or 3 marks Darren pointed out on the blade..can this be matched up somewhere along side an original pack inscription..to see if these minute markings may be a fit? Without having it in hand..this would be the next course of action.

The enjoyment of this hobby is always digging deeper..sometimes it yields just dirt..and this may well be just another Pack SS ....but if there is a glint of light in what may be a match along side another inscription..then the digging paid off.

Im not one to wish so hard..that my imagination will make it appear as an etch..but there may be a little math that might add up.

The Glass is half full smile

Regards Larry


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"We see not even a handful of Ed Gembruch SS daggers and only one Wilhelm Kober SS dagger in existence. If Gembruch could make 5 or 6 daggers and no more seen after that ..why not Ernst Pack? ..The possibility does exist and must exhaust all efforts of research first before closing the door on a 1 of a kind item."

So Larry, with this reasoning that you used above for the SS Pack / Rohm potential blade existence, would you also hold out for the possibility that Pack may have made a few Himmler Honor Daggers as well?

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Misconstrued and misunderstood or just not read thoroughly was my reply. I would hate to break down my wording as I thought I was clear enough my 50/50 position with Darrens dagger and no replies made towards Darrens reply above mine?

1. Did I say it was a Rohm SS?
2. This is not an Eickhorn issue ..but I see read and understood your point..it would be encouraging for you to go back and read again through mine and not invoke the passover by passing over everything I said.

There is in no place in my reply that I said it was a Pack Rohm.
My reply is not the premise of this thread and It would be encouraging that Darrens post be commented on first before mine.

I could care less if Im proven wrong as I dont have high pride within myself to let it bother me and accept the truth when found. Not everything is real as we have seen and been led astray into believing so with certain daggers.

The Luftwaffe funeral dagger should ring many bells of memory or highly nicotined daggers passed off as Third Reich Marine daggers..the list goes on...as is THIS PACK DAGGER with a few questions should be (( addressed ))..ie: meaning to be researched "

I dont ever remember "addressed", "studied" and "researched" meaning " Authentic " ... Times and people must of changed which I remember when sleeveless T shirts were undershirts and not " wife beaters"

I stated my thoughts and will not repeat them a 3rd time. The forum allows these posts to be reread a thousand times which saves me 997 more times smile

So JR , your thoughts on Darrens post? smile

Regards Larry


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I've never seen an SS Pack full Rohm, partial, erased, or anything else pointing to the fact that this edged weapon firm ever produced one. Nor have I ever hear of any long time advanced SS edged weapon collector or dealer, that has ever witnessed an example of one either. No reference, website, forum or other, has ever shown an E. Pack Rohm SS dagger of any type. The only SS Pack Rohm blade that I've ever encountered, were the post war examples which Rex Reddick had made back in the 90's.

The tired and worn blade shown above with 3 little dots on it in my opinion, is far from conclusive evidence that this is a Pack ground Rohm SS blade.


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