UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum ab 43 - with strange flower/star marking?

Hi Gents,

I'm new to the forum, so I thought I'd kick things off with an odd ball post. Recently I picked up an ab 43 bayonet which has some strange things going on. It appears to be matching, but I can see that the blade is over stamped. Beyond this, what has me really stumped is the eight point flower/star marking on the pommel. I've tried to figure it out but came up short, so I'm hoping some of you blade aficionados may have some answers for me.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Chris

A few more pics.

Unit marking would be my guess.

most real canceling mark of previous stamps, any stamps under the grips visible? b.r.Andy

hi chris
i would like to give you my opinion as to what this symbal on your k-98 bayonet stands for . in my humble opinion the german soldier could have belonged to the mountain troops edelweiss div. to me it certainly looks like an edelweiss flower this german soldier was proud to be in this div. if any one else has any outher opinions love to here it god bless all andy militarynut

These and the “starburst” type of pommel markings still seem to be something of a mystery. With the so far best explanation that I recall still being that they are related to the rarely seen “stern” markings seen on some functional/usable but not milspec Mauser rifles that were not to be overhauled/rebuilt for some unspecified reason or reasons. Best Regards, Fred

Fred, please forgive my ignorance, but could you elaborate on the "stern"markings? I'm not overly familiar with some of the more advanced concepts in the blade collecting world so you'll have to bear with me.

Andy, once I get home tonight I will remove the grips and let you know what's on the inside.

Militarynut - you're not the first person to bring up the possibility of Gebirgsjäger issue. I read something similar on another forum, but that person was just speculating as well so I'm not sure that we can substantiate that view until we have some more credible evidence.

The fact that the serial number on the blade is over stamped, got me thinking that perhaps the marking has something to do with a depot?

How many of these have you guys observed over the years, and in what state were the blades?

Thanks for the comments so far!

Chris

Chris, The stern or perhaps better "Stern" markings are from back when I was specializing in Mauser rifles. Which as I recall had to do with rifles that were functional but not deemed to be acceptable for rebuilding (when and if that time came - in fact beside pistols a number of both rifles and bayonets were overhauled or refurbished until the very early 1940's). With the marking indicating a weapon that was OK to be used as is, but not acceptable for rebuilding because of a technical problem that might not be apparent by just looking at it.

As for the Gebirgsjäger part, I've also had multiple and still have a reference example of a G. 33/40 carbine with zip, zero, nada indication of a "Gebirgsjäger" marking on any of the ones I've seen or had which is probably due to: 1) made in CZ, and (2) the well deserved CZ reputation for quality (but not so much near the end of the war). Depot (?) - I've seen more and still have a few of the Depot marked reworks, but this marking is not one of them. With Mundlos as "ab" known to overstamp dates (not common but it has been seen) a serial number in this time frame for me would not be that surprising. Best Regards, Fred

hi chris
i was hopeing that fred prinz would give his expert opinion here on your unusual k-98 bayonet if any one knows what it stands for is fred he has unbelievble knowledge on not only swords but mauser guns /bayonets etc . i personily have never had nor seen one of these flowered hilted bayonets in over fifty years damm i must have missed them sorry . please take in to concideration here that late 1943 when germany was loosing the war soldiers were proud to serve in thier units and had if possible to mark thier guns and wepons with these things shown but in your case i believe it appears factory done and not done by a private person hope another member might give his opinion here so far fred is the possible winner here best have a great day andy militarynut

One of my problems is that I am spread out over multiple areas, so while I like to think of myself as having the WW 2 German made service bayonets reasonably well inside my comfort zone - for me the more dedicated individual is AndyB who is also the keeper of the database. With some discussions in the past only resolved as more information was added to what was already known that helped form a more accurate picture. Not just bayonets, but for a large number of topics which sometimes went "South" (not good), while others were added to the knowledge base as favorably resolved. Or left in the still to be determined category as more pieces of the puzzle were being looked for. Best Regards, Fred

Thanks to Fred for his nice words, but certainly is Fred expert on that area, as we talked in BCN time more about this stamps, i personally found this type of flower stamp only on Mundlos bayonets when i am correct, and mainly on not accepted rejected production, by magnifying glass should be there in flower visible of older WaA proof probably. Anyway the serialing of parts under grips or the locking nut could be interesting to see,b.r.Andy

In agreement, that's an interesting piece of information, and if I'm not mistaken the more of a "starburst" type of pommel markings seems to be associated with cof/Eickhorn? But perhaps not exclusively as I seem to recall a TR era Mauser with that marking (that might not be exactly the same) so I will have to check. Best Regards, Fred

Alright gents, I'm back. As requested I unscrewed the bakelite grips, to check for interior markings but didn't find anything overly interesting. There are no serial numbers, just a WaA 313 on the hilt. The left grip was marked G9 and the right grip was marked G11. I tried to remove the locking lug but it was too tight.

Andy, I think you're onto something regarding the flower being found exclusively on Mundlos bayonets. Here are a few images of another one I found online which is also stamped with the flower. It's quite a bit earlier than mine, but still Mundlos nonetheless. This one is marked on the pommel and guard, but I'll quickly note that mine is not marked on the guard.

So it's looking like this may be some kind of in house inspection marking? Or here's a thought. Maybe it was applied to bayonets that were slotted to be sent to a specific location?

Chris

Now that's interesting. A normal "G" date Mundlos has wood grips and an early style Sweptwing WaA219 Waffenamt. But this example (besides the flower marking) has a late Straightwing Waffenamt and what looks like plastic grips. Recalling another 1930's vintage Mundlos that seemed to be out of sequence - to me it's starting to look more like using up older less than optimal parts on new production like they did with the 'Stern' rifles. But AndyB will have to be the judge of that because I'm not sure of what Information he currently has available to him. Best Regards, Fred

This piece i would picture to explain why there are new WaA243 and no proper ones WaA219 as should be on S/244G, when You looks to flower stamp on crossguard You will see in flower the last 9 of the WaA219 stamp, as ther flower is on crossguard area where the normally by early production were WaA proof the flower stamp hide this stamp.The older rejected S244G was most real reworked in plant and equiped with plastic grips and proofed with WaA243 as it must be realised post 1938.
On other way there exist three form of star/flower mark by Mundlos, but this one is more frequentant.
Other way the ab43 piece dont have any special rejection stamp, is note the older serial number was 9194 b and not the newer restamped, this could be one of the reasons of rejecting of the piece. unfortunally the late production is not assembly serialed or extra proofed.
To Fred The star marking on cof production is well documented on blade area, but the reason is unknown as its not hide anything.Could be a hardness measurement proof,or forging producer mark.b.r.Andy

Hi guys,

Since we're really getting into this, I've decided to take pictures of all the WaA and grip markings. As mentioned above the grips are marked G9 and G11. As far as the WaA numbers go, it appears that every single one of them is WaA 313. I'm not seeing anything else.

If this bayonet were built with a compilation of older parts wouldn't we be seeing different WaA numbers? Also, the spine of the blade is marked 43, which again doesn't signify that older parts have been used.

As far as the flower actually covering something up, I don't think this is the case. I have looked at it very carefully and it doesn't appear that anything is below it, but I will pull out a usb microscope and blast the area at 250x magnification.

Stay tuned...

Chris

last pic for now

As promised, here are images taken at 250x with a usd microscope. The flower is positioned between the two existing 313 WaA's but more importantly, it does not appear to be hiding anything that was previously stamped underneath.

Chris

The flower mark is confirmed on more as 10 pcs that hide old WaA proof, on mostly piece is nothing to examine on the place, only few are visible, is already depend on the location where it was added, on that area was nothing else stamped only proofs.
Your piece could be rejected in white condition without accepting the piece it could be unproofed,and designated with flower as not proper dimension, and later in 1943 used, the important thing here is the reserialing of serial number to a new scabbard, as not other series letter is visible, the 9194 is higher and 7190 so the must be older probably as the 7190 b scabbard.b.r.Andy

Also, Mundlos was not a traditional Solingen blade maker, and If I’m not mistaken, was originally a maker of sewing machines. That's in addition to the rifle cleaning/maintenance kits for the Wehrmacht that have its markings. Best Regards, Fred

Thanks for clearing this up. There's a lot of misinformation out there regarding these markings so I think your efforts in explaining exactly what the flower means will be very helpful to other people down the road should they stumbled across this thread!

On another note, I'm just hoping you can quickly clarify something? I understand that you're typing in English for my benefit, which I really appreciate but I think the last bit of what you were trying to explain got a little mottled in translation :P

If I understood correctly, you're saying that the blade is likely older than scabbard? Due to the lack of a letter suffix, the blade came first, despite the higher serial number. Then it was paired up with the scabbard which bears the "b" suffix, signifying that it is slightly newer than the blade?

Chris

Chris, Obviously I can’t speak for Andy but with the time differential between the U.S. and Europe if I can interject here for a moment re: “ If I understood correctly, you're saying that the blade is likely older than scabbard? Due to the lack of a letter suffix, the blade came first, despite the higher serial number. Then it was paired up with the scabbard which bears the "b" suffix, signifying that it is slightly newer than the blade?”

Understanding that with the war, it’s aftermath and Mundlos behind the the Iron Curtain there is objective data, and (unfortunately oftentimes) a certain amount of speculation on the most probable way things were done to try and answer the question where the original period information is missing and/or no longer exists. The objective data being that the blade was given a new serial number on top of the old one. But the government contract supervised by the German Army called for let’s say - 10,000 bayonets in blocks with consecutive serial numbers that would have to be checked/verified before payment was made (educated guess). So the unacceptable bayonets were put away somewhere with Mundlos numbering another bayonet to fulfill the immediate contract. Said bayonet later being placed back into the production line probably as a part of a later block of serial numbers. Where in this case it was re-numbered with a "b" suffix to fit into that range of serial numbers and mated with a scabbard to complete the order. Best Regards, Fred,

Sorry for my english is not my native, german is my better language when You understand, i could write it in german.
Important is to say, the two new digits 7 and 0 added there on bayonet sn are of same high and font as scabbard ones,(different to typical visible on bayonet) so it was reserialed after the scabbard was done, which i assume scabbard was newer made and completed with a reserialed older bayonet 9194, from this i assume the b letter was added later by reserialing, from this 9194 must be from range without letter or a but a letter is no visible there. b.r.Andy

The above is a better focused answer than mine - at the end of the day: While there is no evidence of a special purpose unit interpretation of the markings, it's still a fairly scarce markings variant that would be sought out by many of those who specialize in the combat types of bayonets that like variations. Best Regards, Fred

Nice buy Chris.Good to see another CGN'er on the forum.

Todd

Interesting. Any other like examples?

--dj--Joe