UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Helmet Forum SS champagne runes

Howdy folks,

Just want to start a discussion about the SS champagne rune decals. There's word going around saying that the champagne runes are post war productions. Personally I've never had a Waffen SS helmet in my hands which had the champagne runes on it. What's your thought about it?

Oh man Gerry that /those threads on waf were totally off the rails- I have hardly seen a discussion get that heated! let's hope the better nature of the Gdc-ers once again proves itself to be above the fray. So 2 things- a. This issue of the runes is too new to me to make an opinion one way or the other, so I am officially watching this from the "ring" side seats (sorry bad pun). Secondly (b) it's a good thing this is in the helmet forum cause ur gonna need one when the shells start flying. Good luck guys. - Mike

Cheers Mike! Yeah I know, things got a bit out of hand in regards to this topic on other forums. We'll be ok here...totally different public on GD.

In the mean time I've been emailing with Kelly Hicks and this is part of his email:

Removed so that Mr. Hicks can post his own thoughts. See 2 posts below:

hi panzerfaust
very intresting topic these ss champagne helmets vintage started in the 1970s i read every page as thay say some has kelly hicks certifications he states real of the period . i believe if i am correct acording to the ss helmet forum there at whermach one helmet collector bought one off ruptured duck and bill imediatly gave half cash back the rest in trade the cost of the helmet in question was 8,000 u.s.d. outher helmet collectors bought some of these sprayed ss decal helmets and they were in thier collections for years . next month the sos show in kentucky probly will be some mad n discusted ss helmet collectors who was burned in the amount of 8,000-15,000 u.s.d. i can say this i would also be mad sure hope they can work this out honesty is the best policy best andy militarynut

You're absolutely right Andy. Honesty is indeed the best policy in our hobby.
Yeah I'm kinda curious to see what's going to happen at the SOS...

I edited a post above so that Mr. Hicks can speak for himself.

I read the topic on WAF and if it gets going here, I want first hand information posted.

Dave

hi panzerfaust
in the mid 1950s jerry lee lewis made a song intitled theres a whole lot of shaken going on . there will be a lot of shaking going on at the sos show next month like i said before getting screwed in the tune of 8,000-15,000 not a good feeling im sure you agree most guys will be looking to get thier hard earned money back lets see how many honest dealers that sold these bogus helmets give back thier customers money with out squirming and giving useless excuses plus getting nasty with thier customers . best they take what dealer bill shea ruptured duck did imediatly money back no questions asked hey he sold the bogus helmet why not thats what an honest dealer should do and live up to his honest reputation as the dealer . i have been in this great hobby for over fifty years my reputation and my word is everything to me with out it i am nothing i dont have these problems never did but we shall see hope n pray it all works out peacfully god bless andy militarynut

Fair enough Dave. It wasn't my intention to discredit Kelly Hicks... I've been talking to him about these Champagne runes and I only posted what he emailed me.

BTW Dave, that part that I posted from Kelly Hicks was his actual reply to my email. Honestly I don't see the reason why you had to remove it and put a note on the post that "Mr. Hicks can speak for himself." He was also referring to one of his books where he has his thought about champagne runes written down.

If I was taking his good name through the mud then yeah, I'd completely understand why the post got removed. In this case it wasn't.

Gruess,

Gerry

I read through the WAF thread when I was sent a link about 2 weeks ago. Lots of speculation and accusation and opinion but short on facts. Perhaps it has progressed since then. (?)

No need to do that again here. As I said, Mr. Hicks can post his thoughts
/ photos if he wishes, but it needs to be first hand. Same with owners of those helmets.

I feel the photos may be the key so the more the merrier.

Ok, after reading some more posts on other forums I see what you mean Dave.

Hopefully we can add some pictures here soon.

Panzer,

A good discussion would be welcome, but not a food fight. As Byzanti said above "Oh man Gerry that /those threads on waf were totally off the rails- I have hardly seen a discussion get that heated! let's hope the better nature of the Gdc-ers once again proves itself to be above the fray."

I'd particularly like to have the fellow who blew the whistle come to GDC and post his photos and facts. If anyone knows him, please extend an invitation. Kelly Hicks, too.

Dave

Dave, I rarely visit here anymore. However I would recommend that you visit ghw2.com and join. It will allow you to read the rather long but fascinating thread which can be found under Third Reich Combat Helmets. Once you read it you will see that the study is so detailed that the author, DougB has really done his homework.
Enjoy

Cheers, Mike

I agree Mike, the study of Doug is a real eye opener.

Mike and Panzer,

I have read the summary of it, including seeing that key image showing the tape line and the spray paint splatter. Wow!

If I read correctly, the outstanding questions are:

1. Who was the "artist" ?

2. When did he/she/them start making these ?

3. Are ALL the painted 'decals' bad or only some ?

4. Are buyers getting their money back ?

The SOS is this week and many owners and sellers of these helmets should be there, along with the reference book writers. If any of the above questions are discussed, please post here.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave just made some very interesting points and these are very significant questions. I believe Andy made the point that there may be some angry folks at sos I am curious to know what happens. Also, want to second daves request for sos pics I wish I were going!

Yeah I wish I were going too but unfortunately I've got a 5 weeks trip to Europe planned this summer.

Those are indeed some good questions Dave and I hope we'll get the answers soon.

Gruess

Gerry

Any reports, gents?

Incredible.

Absolute silence on this subject here and other places ... at least those that I know of.

Anyone know of any news?

Thanks
Dave

hi dave
good morning america i was at the sos show and had a chance to walk the floor i did notice that most ss helmets wasnt moveing that fast since the champagn decals were discovered and i didnt hear of any screems or horor events at the show to the people who got screwed in the tune of 8,000 u.s.d. or more for these type helmets either wasnt saying any thing and biteing the big bullet also i didnt see kelly hicks at all at the show every thing in the helmet dept. was quiet thats the whole story jerry unless some one else heard something every body have a nice day andy militarynut

I know someone who has one and who was also at sos. He basically decided to just keep it in his room at home for display.. I'd have a tough time seeing that everyday but he is accepting it as a learn my lesson type piece. For me, I'm still upset that there was a piece I didn't buy and when I came back it was gone I couldn't live with it. Jeden das seine.

hi mike
this is how some people feel sad but true i feel the same as you do i cant live with that feeling this is me what can we say have a nice day andy militarynut

Curiouser and curiouser.

Or.... More and more curious?. You never much liked controversy and anytime it came up you generally deleted it and handed out infractions. Not sure of the interest now but o.k, ill bite.

The information put out into the market by Doug B. raised quite an issue. Its still an issue but Kelly Hicks appears to be sticking to his guns and saying that some of these helmets are real....

Of course the 3 that were tested were all accompanied by Kelly Hicks certificates which makes it hard for him to get out from under them. His cert's read as something along the lines of a bearer bond where the guy holding it has a 100% guarantee of authenticity. What is not known or what has not yet come to pass is a situation where Hick's refuses a C.O.A in terms of honoring it. The only example of that is Doug B. who attempted to return one to Hicks and was refused.

Then there is the Blackie that Doug B. was asked to overlook by Kelly Hicks as it was sold and could do no more harm, only to show up at auction and get blown up.

The consensus and the talk at the show amongst the players was not good for Kelly Hicks with the term, "Crook" utilized by several heavyweight's and various other terms as well. The comments were no doubt in stark contrast to what these same people were saying several years ago and it would appear that he has lost his luster and while he was received professionally at the show, it was nothing more than a courtesy while they were not discussing his major screw up and true beliefs in the matter.

Currently he scurries about flipping cloth, most notably SS cloth which comes with his C.O.A's as well. What his expertise is there is beyond me but his certs are worth nothing to many now. In addition the several year old science scam is still a topic and his reputation appears to be in the crapper overall.

Of course there is some random chatter on Doug B. as well.

That is the very definition of a parade of horribles. Thanks for the post Ajax!! Dave, although Ajax makes a good point about the more correct "more and more curious" if you were referencing Lewis Carroll (Alice in wonderland) with that quote- touché! that couldn't have been more perfect- "down the rabbit hole" this is seeming to trend... I'm interested in the coa vs not honoring a coa- what does this mean, big picture? ( I already can guess.... Caveat emptor in the end!!) down and down Alice went!!!

I would no doubt miss an Alice in Wonderland quote. Whether a COA would be honored by Kelly Hicks remains a question, most believe it would not be currently.

Ajax,

Controversy, as demonstrated on this topic, is good to have on any forum. Doug did a good piece of work for the collecting community. I suspect that the fallout, both to those helmets and COAs, is not over.

Dave

Dave,

Yes, he did do good work and you are correct and I do not believe it is over. The only helmet returned has been a Shea example with a Hicks certification and Shea always makes good from what I have seen. But there has been no public problem with Kelly himself on a return other than Doug B.

Of course a lot of guys know him as well and a few think that maybe he wanted the throne so to speak, and that his motive might have been there, personally I do not buy it and think if anything he went light on Kelly, I am sure he would deny that as well but there was quite a bit of chatter at the show. Apparently there were some other deals over the years that have started to float and would reflect poorly on Kelly as well. So you did have some fairly harsh comments from people that would not normally be harsh, at least from my experience. But the whole Helmet market has been locked up under him for years and no one could move without his certification and blessing, not a good thing.

Looked to me like he was table flipping and running SS cloth now with certs, tunics, visors, and other nightmare items. So he will write a COA but based on what went on at the show he cannot distinguish bad cap insignia from good. So, I am thinking its just a matter ot time before a helmet comes back, a deal go's bad, or someone decides to talk about some other deal that has been kept under water for 20 years.

hi members
just noticed a m-42 ss single decal champagne decal just sold in two days on whermach site for 895.00 u.s.d. cheap as he puts it guess this guy bit the big bullet after paying probly 5,000 u.s.d. to 8000 u.s.d. ouch ouch that hurts also guess he wants to move on have a nice day guys andy militarynut

Hello everybody ,
I am new in the "business" of the german helmets and I have no idea what champagne runes could be !!
could anybody published some pictures showing a champage SS rune compared to other models ??
thanks a lot for your help ,
jean.

hi jean
sorry i dont have any champagn ss decal helmets perhaps one of the outher members here have one to show . but any way the ss champagn decal is not silver in color it has a yellowish color i all ways called it a crushed glass decal hope all agrees have a nice day andy militarynut

Currently I don't have a picture of one

HOO LEEE SHI IT !!!!!!

WOW,,not a helmet guy but,,, In the early 70s German helmets were on the cheap side and plentiful. We'd paint skulls on the front and wear them while riding our mini bikes! Really by the mid 70s we were more serious in to collecting. Many times we'd take a helmet with no decals and paint them up camo style,,even made a few chicken wire styles! Wonder where they are now ..

anyway,,, This CH runes thing is major for the helmet guys. The guy that literally wrote the book[s] couldn't tell that a decal was painted on?! and even worse wrote CoAs for them! Jeezz! The lengths these counterfeiters go is amazing!
* Isn't there ONE photo of these runes that we can have posted here for GDC? Hey take it where ever it can be found just give proper credit here in your post..

hi gaspare
yes the guy that wrote the book on ss helmets wrote a great book but put a fake ss helmet on the front cover of his book with out first examining it then put it in the publishers hands all for a good friend in the hobby. he even admits he was wrong doing this stupid thing with out examining it for a so called friend sad because he was a well respected man in his field of helmets and later this fake helmet was sold for mega bucks greed n money and destroyed his reputation as I all ways say my reputation is worth more to me then all the money in the world with out our reputation we are nothing this is why don boyle ss honor ring man has to have rings in hand to many cons tricksters out there with terrible some times altered pictures and outher means of faking rings /documents lazer beams etc sad part of our hobby stay well god bless andy militarynut

That's it ?

As I read this, some are good and some are bad ? Few if any being returned ?

Pictures would be great if anyone has some.

Dave

Here is a photo of the "Champagne" SS Runes decal. I've read several discussions on these around different forums, and it seems the general consensus is that they are all post war.

An entire class or variant helmet have beem deemed bad and are not decals at all but airbrushed. In addition a black helmet deemed fake after the author certified it was involved. The author requested that the information on the black helmet be held back from public to save face after t was sold as original and is refusing to acknowledge the CH decals are actually ALL bad and applied with an airbrush. Several refunds made but not by the author and certificate source for originality.

Cringweworthy. Really, all of it. Like watching a car crash in slow motion. What other things are the owners of these pieces doing? I kno one collector who is just keeping it in a separate room as a lesson/reminder. What would u guys do?

I had a good discussion with Hicks about these runes and I've been doing some research on other forums (GHW) and I must say there's some good arguments on both sides.

The thing is that if I had a faker I'd return it to the seller but I understand why people are keeping theirs.

Good argument?. Helemts with Hicks C.O.A's are shown to have painted on decals and he refuses to acknowledge, make any refunds, and in addition asks another collector to bury info on a another certified helmet that is bad. And this is on top of several other helmets with his certificates that are found to be bad on GHW. Clearly you have more reading to do. He was told they were bad for years and he kept selling and writing certificates, then he used Xrfacts with a corrupted data base. Intentionally corrupted according to higher ups including other forum mods. There is no good argument because Hicks is hiding and has not even put forth an argument other than to use shills to make statements on WRF. No vet helmets, none found in Europe, painted decals, lot numbers discrepencies. All his previous buddies think he is a crook and guys are out hundreds of thousands of dollars. Whats good about that?

No, they are all bad period. And, it seems like they been around for quite a while.
Some collectors have nobody to return them too! I mean if you bought one 5 years ago or so at a show from a regular table guy that's it, your beat no return. I've heard a dealer or 2 did a 50/50, 50% cash and 50% merch.. It's really not the dealers fault,,they're going by the dude that wrote the books CoA!
I guess if you have one with a little thinner you could take the dec off. Then shop around for a NOS decal of any branch of service ,,ha ha, only kidding..
Dam shame,,there's not one area of this hobby that's safe and you can get some enjoyment.. Well, helmets were getting a bit overpriced anyway............

To better educate myself I took a look at the WAF thread and found something that did not make sense to me. Not the statement itself which was just reporting that the Champagne paint/decals were tested at 3% copper.

"…………………….“In this case, XRFacts "authenticated" airbrush spray painted on "decals" as being "identical" to known original SS decals except for having "3% copper" which was advanced as a reason for the "Champagne color”……………………"

Which I found really, really, interesting because in 1935 copper was documented as a restricted material very critical for the military buildup and later war effort. With most TR era blade collectors knowing that makers in Solingen in the 1930's were forced to change from the copper based metals they had been using to substitutes as the pre-existing supplies of the copper based metals were exhausted. Also the later switch from brass to steel cased ammunition a documented fact etc. etc. Did XRFacts with its own words just prove the exact opposite of what they were trying to prove?? Best Regards, Fred

Hi Fred.. Maybe I'm misunderstanding [and don't know what XRFacts is].. They are saying: the postwar airbrushed on SS runic decals have the copper in them.

So,,all 3rd reich era helmet emblems were lacquer type applied on decals, all branches of service etc. No 3rd reich era emblems were airbrushed .

We really, from what I understand, don't know when these things accurately started popping up but when ever it was for sure postwar. A percentage of copper being in the paint would be fine.
What I don't understand is a collector/expert couldn't tell the difference between a decal applied on and airbrush sprayed. [?]

Gaspare, As I understand it the X-Ray Fluorescense technology is a non-destructive method to determine the composition of an item. Something like spectroscopy, with the idea behind it being that the physical/elemental/chemical composition of items made 70 plus years ago should not have modern period substances in them and should generally conform to what was used in the target period. A long while back having seen results from a more traditional spectroscopic examination of period dagger blades that set a sort of benchmark that was compared to U.S. standards. Something that the "Chapagne" decals/paint failed because of the presence of copper. With the airbrush vs. decal IMO another matter entirely. With, as I understand it paint, an airbrush, and templates used in lieu of decals which are paint like transfers on paper which is discarded. Both having the same overall appearance after drying. With Best Regards, Fred

PS: Not having seen one for confirmation - I made the assumption that XRFacts themselves are the COA's that are being sold to 'authenticate' the "Champagne SS helmets".

Ajax, maybe I had to write it down differently... But in no way I'm defending those that fake helmets.

I just read what all parties have to say about these specific runes.

Its all good, I just read the post and said wait a minute here there are no two sides because no one has countered DougB publicly. Sometimes guys like to muddy the waters, something we have seen on another forum that has not gone over well. I guess I just wanted to get in front of it just in case.

They have essentially used whatever argument suits them based on the result of a proprietary baseline and no transparency. So where individual decals were available they were scanned and then helmets with the decal applied scanned and differences mathmatically adjusted. But no decals were available for a Champagne rune so it was shot against a helmet and then compared against a baseling of their own collections resulting in both false positives and negatives for originality on a multitude of helmets. This XRFact test was later and bought in to sell certificates and no doubt to further enforce the issue on Champagme decals which were being questioned behind the scenes... It should also be noted that helmets that failed the test and sent in were offered a purchase price to the owner of 50.00. Apparently some good helmets failed the XRFacts test.

The helmets themselves for the most part are not XRF certified and are Kelly Hicks certified and certifications increased as his publicatiions started to bulge from Champagne decal helmets with his name attached. Does not appear to matter as Kelly Hicks has expressed no interest in refunding any monies.

Lessons learned - XRFacts works only if it has an accurate baseline. In this case the baseline was the spray painted "decals". Do not rely solely on a COA regardless of who issues it.

If anyone thinks this good luck have been down the road of high end items 40 some years ago paratrooper helmets. items SS stuff you name it review it with suspicion XRFacts or whatever these crooks come up with in this day and age as far as getting a refund two words he won't. timothy

yeah, its like the old case of the Hitler diaries! The signature was authenticated!, except the signature that was used to authenticate against was bogus to start!

Refunds? Think that would be financially impossible for some involved. But if you wrote a CoA and the item was indeed bad I would think your career as an expert would be over...

Painted on decals! That was some maestro of the airbrush!!

"What I don't understand is a collector/expert couldn't tell the difference between a decal applied on and airbrush sprayed. [?]"

Lesson #1 for an SS decal helmet expert: This is a decal.

Lesson #2: This is paint.

Lesson #3: Learn the difference.

Nothing to discuss there a old scam Doug B the Canada SS expert proved they were painted on yrs ago see his research and smoking gun on GHWallah this fraud has been around longer than a person may think as I was warned by a old dealer in the 80's steer clear they were made up north possibly Michigan who knows? One thing for sure they are NOT ww2 regardless how many books show them! Then their is the old Tony Oliver fake SS buckles also in books with his phone no stamped in them took a lot of people including yours truly but that is another topic. timothy