UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Degen hanger

quote:

"This hobby is a continuing education" JWotka

And the above quote ought to be emblazoned at the top of this forum!

Ok Joe:
I'll certainly defer to you on the sequential number point as I know you've studied this area a great deal. However; Why picture this hanger here? It isn't pictured with any other hangers.
Catalogues are usually designed so potential purchasers can go thru them and pick out items they wish to purchase and any associated items that go with the principal item.
I am trying to make sense of displaying this hanger next to that particular sword if it wasn't an associated item for that sword?
Jim

Jim M. I hope we are still all talking about the chain hanger... Right??? The Item that started this thread...as these are the common hangers that I'm talking about.. Regards: James

quote:

Originally posted by DAMAST:
Jim M. I hope we are still all talking about the chain hanger... Right??? The Item that started this thread...as these are the common hangers that I'm talking about.. Regards: James

DAMAST:
I'm still talking about the chained hanger but I can't speak for everyone else.
Jim

Quote by Houston:

Could have, might have, I believe, possibly. All this subjective jazz from someone who DEMANDS absolute, clear cut BLOOD evidence from others. Come on Fred. Play by your own rules. Talk about absurd.

Houston, of course I am demanding and exacting in the pursuit of evidence – it is precisely this kind of attention to detail that allows us to learn things. You stipulated that the chains in question had never been official German issue. Well, that is probably correct – as far as nationally proscribed military dress is concerned – but it is not the complete answer.

My sole comment – agreeing totally with Jim M - about the potential for such a chain pattern being used by some German State, or even the early SS, was simply to emphasise that you cannot realistically dismiss the possibility out of hand. After all, if we relied upon your word, you definitively state that they are the chains for US 1902 pattern sword – and therefore by inference, for no other sword pattern. No doubt they are the pattern used for the US M1902, but not exclusively so. The evidence - the hard documented evidence - shows that they were also used elsewhere. Your allegation of my comment being “absurd” appears to be lacking in substance.

ORPO – I appreciate your comment, about the same chain pattern being used by the Portuguese, as well as some other South American countries. However, I checked my Eickhorn Portuguese Catalogue, and I am obliged to report to you that the chain hanger shown for Portugal (Pattern 1448 b) is NOT the same. I also have the Eickhorn catalogue for Switzerland and it too shows a chain hanger (Pattern 1654), and that is different yet again. (See image)

As I don’t seem to have a copy of the South American catalogue, I would appreciate it if you would be good enough to show us images of the chain patterns Nr.1459 & Nr.320 – which you state are the same as the Dutch pattern, and therefore the same as the type worn on the US Model 1902. It will help to clarify matters.

I do agree with Jim M’s submission, that this chain pattern could have been used on the early SS Sabres – and I did state that was in the period prior to the adoption of the standardized Degen pattern. One feature that is absolutely clear is that the production of SS Sabres in the early period was less regulated than that of SS daggers. There were a lot of variations from different companies – Eickhorn, WKC (two types), possibly Weyersberg, and others. With such a variety of Sabres being utilized, it would be hardly surprising if some odd variants of the sword hanger found their way into use.

So will we find photographic evidence that shows a similar sword hanger being carried by the early SS? Well, it is such a difficult thing to see on a photo, I suspect that this will preclude any possibility of observing such a feature. Do I think this style of sword hanger was carried by the early SS? Well, no – at least no more so than any of the other obscure hangers which were commercially available at the time. And that is the crux of this issue – there were numerous SS sword variations. Who is to say that there was no variation in individual choices of sword hanger?

FJS

Klaus Patzwall's magazine "Militaria" of Sept/Okt 2002 (Heft 5) has an excellent article by Dirk Stefanski on the SS officer's saber (Die Fuhrersabel der SS) that is well illlustrated with period photos of SS officers wearing various styles of sabers from the likes of WKC or Puma. For the most part, the officers can be seen using the standard black tear-drop hanger attached to the single scabbard ring. It is well worth the effort to secure a copy from the publisher.

Well. I know that it cannot be taken 1:1 but here is an article out of the period "uniform market" concerning questions after chain hangers for RAD leader hewers (interestingly they said "leader´s DAGGER"): They were strictly forbidden... only leather hangers were allowed. It also states that "some manufacturer´s own creations are not allowed to be worn".
Personally I think such comparing strict regulations did exist for all edged weapons, we would have only to find them.
Here again it comes to my mind "if you want to collect german items you have to think german" (not meant in ANY POLITICAL way!!!).
Regards,

Accessories like hangers, and knots etc. are not an area where I have a lot of focused interest. And I don't claim any special expertise. That said, when SS bayonets were being discussed a few years back, I was amazed at the diversity seen in the early photographs. Uniforms, rifles, bayonets and other items. From my perspective, it seems that in the early years they used whatever they could get their hands on. Versus later on as things became more organized. FP

FP, you are quite right, in period photographs (not only early ones) you can find a lot of anomalies and things against regulations.
What I wanted to express is that this certain kind of chain hangers, especially for sabres, were not common to german edged weapons.
Nevertheless we have learned in our hobby never to say never .
Regards,