UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum RED SOLID AGAIN !!!!

Browsing the Facebook I have found this red solid dimond which was found on Oksywie near Gdansk a few days ago. Remembering the earlier threds about its originality now I have a serious doubts. In my opinion this dimonds are period - that is a fact.

Great to hear this news Gottlieb, i always had positive opinions about the solid red enamel hj diamonds, thanks for posting this ground dug artifact.


Regards Mac 66.

What you are showing, Gottlieb, is the "leftover "of a HJ pin: you can see it on the back side, where the safety pin was removed.

It has nothing to do with HJ-daggers.

You could post it on "Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum" if you want.

Best regards,

Herman

Perhaps but this find proofs one thing: this solid red HJ diamonds are period so their existance as a part of HJ knifes is 100% possible. Personally I used to own a dug found HJ dagger with this kind of diamond ( presented here in this thread http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290730#Post290730). Now I have found a diamond found by a digger in northern Poland (I spoke to him) and I'm convinced RED SOLID HJ emblems are legit. That's all. Herman with all the respect to Your knwledge please face the truth.

I would not waste my time discussing solid red enamel diamonds on here Gottlieb,

"Politicians who like to silence the masses".

Back it up with facts Mac 66. I need you to give an example of politicians silencing the masses. If you are speaking of Herman asking you to quit being rude on his forum, that does not count. So you will supply factual examples or I am going to modify your post as it is an outright lie as far as I can tell.

As for Gottlieb. He is a valued member of this forum and no one is going to edit or delete his post.

Another misstatement by you Mac. Or just an attempt to cause problems on this form.

Your knowledge is welcome here but your attitude is not.

Content deleted because no factual evidence was offered. Just more hysteria.

Since there are no facts offered, rather a continuation of the hysteria Mac66 shows on this forum, I edited his post for the obviouse attempt to create a problem.

Mac66 If you have had enough of this forum leave.

I will no longer give you warning before I edit your posts.

And to be very clear, you are a special case. I do not perform this service for just anyone. In fact, out of all the members here, you are only the second one I have to monitor.

Every other member can post what they want.

Gottlieb, this forum has always acknowledged the existence of solid red HY diamonds. But on the pins.

To be clear, I have no dog in this show. Your argument is that there is a definite possibility that some of the solid diamonds may have made it to the Hitler Youth knives.

Based on my following this forum, I think you are correct. Not on any mass scale, but some must have floated over to the knife line. At the same time, while in Poland I definitely saw all the de Nazi Youth Knives that were refitted. As you know, the mere possession of a swastika in the East Block meant prison time. So almost all diamonds were pulled and later replaced.

But, I don't collect the HY knives.

Apparently some people do not know My wife and I were among the first American Expats that moved to Poland right after the fall of the wall. I lived in Poland for 6 years and my friends were the militaria dealers and repairers. I saw hundreds of Hitler youth daggers.
To clarify, I meant all the daggers I saw were refitted with replacement diamonds. Those knives were found in the antique bazars. Both the knives and the bazars were plentiful at that time.

I agree with You. Refitting is some kind of tradition - why You said above. All I know is that RED SOLID are legit and from time to time are seen in HJ knifes. Knife I used to have was not refitted and the diamond was placed before plates were riveted. That is all I know for sure. No more proofs belive me or not.

Like I said, I suspect your correct. I do not know how many Hitler Youth knives were originally made, but it makes sense that a batch of solid diamonds made it to production, and were placed in the grips. The examples I was looking at were really picked over and had bad condition issues, but with shiny diamonds. But, what do you want for the equivalent of $50.00.

Jim,



What type of shiney new diamonds did you see fitted into these messed up hj knifes then ? solid reds or clear red enamel ?

The vast majority of the diamonds were the clear ones. After all, you could go to the corner shop in old town Warsaw and buy all the correct clear diamonds you wanted. It is only the older reproductions that were solid.

You could also go to any number of tourists shop right there and buy the factory new Hitler youth daggers with the correct diamond but with the lip on the scabbard.

Mac, did you notice that Gottlieb confirmed what I have said. So the Poles, and the people who actually have lived in Poland know I am being accurate. Yet you insist on disrupting this thread with condescending and rude remarks that I have to clean up for you.

Why not show just a little bit of class and leave..

Jim,


To be honest with you, there is far too much control freaks on here anyway, you give them a little power & look what happens, ta ta, hey are you not suspended over on WAF ?

Maybe you won't convince or even have some open their minds to possiblities or theories, but speaking for myself, I appreciate hearing both points of view on a debated issue.

Mac, I have never been suspended anywhere, period.
Once again, not able to speak to the issues but rather trying to make this personal with a new lie. Just keep showing your lack of class even when other members are welcoming an actual discussion.

Dean, I agree and believe people should be able to discuss their points of view without being harassed by other members. I enjoy reading the different opinions and seeing the various artifacts.

This is as great web site and forum except for those people who come on here with just negative disruptive posts that add nothing to the conversation.

This solid red diamond business is a real bone of contention with some people, but in the end it is just a difference of opinion that will probably never be proven.

So move on and agree to disagree.

Jim,

Sorry Wrong Jim W on WAF that is suspended, if the mods/Admin would be more flexible this would be a better place to be, as it was long time ago, so i heard


Dean read this thread on hj knifes with solid red enamel diamonds, the best thread on the net about this subject:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490491&highlight=solid+red


Think i,ll just lurk from now on

Talk about links. Here is a moderator who has decided to start taking the same type of action I have here.

Hopefully the two best web sites, will soon be a place where people can post without somebody coming in with all the negative crap.

Unfrendly posters

[quote=Jim W]

Hopefully the two best web sites, will soon be a place where people can post without somebody coming in with all the negative crap.

Add WRF to the best forum list !



Fingers crossed Jim, Peace Man

Mac, help me out here, WRF. full name and a link please.

War Relics Forum http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/


Nice friendly place



Have a nice day



Cheers Mac 66.

Looks like a nice forum Mac. I wish them good luck.

This remains indeed a sensitive topic.

For over 10 years now, I am awaiting proof that full red diamonds were applied on period HJ's by particular makers...

But here is what a good friend collector of mine recently brought from Germany...

At last! A fine conditioned HJ with a solid red diamond, bought directly from the son of a former HJ member!

Except for some enamel loss, the diamond fits perfectly and does show some movement.

Best regards,

Herman

Good show Herman. Well done!!!

Just think if that had been posted two days ago.
So, is that proof? Or maybe?

--dj--Joe

Wow ,solid red in the early type, what a surprise,i didn't expect that.
There should be apology to Mac

Herman,


Have you now accepted that hj knifes with the solid red enamel diamonds are genuine TR period produced ?, i thought you would be very suspicious of an early no ricasso knife like this one you show with a solid red diamond ?, its a very big surprise to me to hear this from you !, i thought you would be more relaxed to find a late RZM knife out of the woodwork that belonged to an hj member ?

What is the maker & can we see close up photos of the rivets on the plain side grip to see if its been messed with ?, or have you done a hands on inspection & all is as it should be, unmessed with rivets ect ?, does your friends story seem legit to you & have you checked it out for yourself ?, sorry for all the questions but as i said i am very surprised sitting reading your post & photos at the moment.


Can you post your hj knife photos with your opinion to conclude these 2 solid red threads please: http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259949&page=1


WAF thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490941&highlight=solid+red



Thanks Mac 66.

Thank you Mac, that is a very magnanimous response

Not too fast gentlemen!

I had no time to terminate the story last night...

Knowing what I know about HJ's and full red diamonds and keeping in mind the golden rule of collecting: "Buy the piece, not the story", I made my collector friend a proposal: If he would remove the diamond and it would be prooved to be originally mounted, I was ready to pay him 3X the knife's price.

Here is the (evident) result:

Yes, it is another glued-in badge diamond!

I like bets which I cannot looze...

Best regards,



Herman

Not so fast Herman.

The insert is clearly an insert for a knife. It is not a modified pin that has been placed in the knife.

How do you explain the existence of this solid diamond with the proper attachments'?

Also, what is on the back of the diamond as far as markings go. what makes you think this is not a period pin?

Hmmmmm, how could it be glued in and wiggle?
Odd about the two part story. When did all this come about.

--dj--Joe

Getting more interesting

Herman,


I thought it was to good to be true !

it was the early knife that made me suspicious with solid red diamond fitted, if it was a late RZM knife with a correctly fitted solid red i would not be so worried, ah well you had me going there for a while


@ Jim, the fitting on the back of the diamond shown by Herman looks very much like the type used on hj members hat/caps with the thicker tangs cut off imo, close up pix would confirm my thoughts .

Regards Mac 66.

Thanks Mac

Herman,what size is that solid red diamond?

Gentlemen,

It was a small type badge diamond, of which the rear appears to have been grinded; allowing it to have been glued with some kind of elastic (sillicon?) glue into the grip recess.

Quite an inventive fabrication, if you ask me...

Best regards,

Herman

That Otto Hoffmann hj pin is a Fake, these Hoffmann badges come in many different colours.


Seems Otto Hoffmann was a maker of cloth items

Thankfully at last

At last What Seany ?

Herman,


To be honest i think you will wait forever to see if a solid red diamond was applied to a particular maker or makers, it seems to me that properly fitted quality TR made solid reds are fitted to "Random Makers" during the last 3yrs of hj knife production to RZM marked hjs that i have found & owned, also what i see on dealers sites & other member knifes posted on WAF solid red thread & e-stand over several years, maybe if you get the chance to buy an unmessed hj with solid red with the required movement have a good hands on study at it & then have it X-Rayed at your dentist, just a thought or two.


There are just some things that we collectors will never ever find out what was done & not done to hj knifes ect,ect during the TR period, unless a time machine is ever invented......


Regards Mac 66.

Mac, without me reading through 10 years of postings. Perhaps you could help me out.

Based on your above post, I would like you to verify that you have personally seen, handled, inspected Hitler Youth Knives that had solid diamonds, that you judged to be original, from the factory, unbuggered?

Thank you

Yes of course i have Jim, the last one i owned i could not fault it in anyway, i speak the truth not made up stories.


Regards Mac 66.

I don't doubt that Mac.
So far in just this thread, Gottlieb and you have both verified you have seen them. What little I know about probability says they must exist. I know of at least one other member who testifies to the same.

It reminds me of the RLB Leaders Dagger. We actually have one author who maintains that the only war time original RLB's were made by Weyersburg. This is, of course, disputed by just about every expert who collects. Yet the author still maintains he is correct.

It would be a shame if people do not post here because of the moderators stance on one issue. Post nice and professionally, of course.

People like Mac obviously have a wealth of information to share. What good does it do to drive them away?

Just questions for thought.

Jim,


Also ask DD Harris, JR, Paul Hogle, Ron weinand, these guys have handled & sold hj knifes with the solid red diamonds


You should take some of your time to read & take in the info in this thread on WAF : http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490941&highlight=solid+red


I am not here to be baited by certain people which has happened in the past on here & on WAF solid red threads, this is why i get angry, i,m a peaceful guy until i,m provoked, enough said on that.


Not much more i can say or add at this point in time.



Regards Mac 66.

proof

Proof of what ?, you talking about that early knife Herman showed with a fake insert glued into place ?, your a man of very few words

Mac and others,

I will stop the discussion right here!

No more repetition: points have been made many times.

Unless you show real proof or new elements: all repetition will be removed!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


Tell me something, what do you regard personally as Real Proof ?


Maybe an hj knife with solid red that you yourself bought directly from the hj vets son or daughter ?

at the end of the day what we are basically discussing is the colour of the enamel: solid red.

Solid red enamel is accepted as genuine as discussed already, comes in a variety of TR badges & hj pins, also hj diamonds were made with the proper tangs on the rear to be fitted into the griplate of hj knifes, just the same way clear hj knife diamonds were made during the period, personally i take all the past evidence together with owning & examining hj knifes with solid reds finding no tampering makes me feel more positive & relaxed about them, i do not think you will find any period evidence why solid red diamonds made it into the manufacture of various hj knife makers, if anybody manages to the find out anything new let us know.



Regards Mac 66.

Just to throw in my 5p (or cents as you say in the States) I had a HJ purchased from DD Harris a few years ago with a solid red diamond. It had no issues and nothing to show the diamond had been changed. All looked period and correct.

Fair enough, "dagger screws".

But so did my collector friend: he was even proud about his new HJ-knife... until he found out about the reality of his nice "opaque" -as some call them- diamond knife, then his mood changed just a little bid...

Do you still have that HJ-knife? If so try to find out how the full red is attached.

Best regards,

Herman

I bought hj knife with a solid red/opaque enamel diamond from DD Harris as well & all was 100% correct, diamond had correct movement when tapped with my finger, great sound to hear, Click


Br Mac 66.

Unfortunately I sold the HJ some years ago.

Hello all. I find this interesting and this is my first post. I have some questions regarding these solid reds.
1 Why? I've read there were slight size variations early to late diamonds but they were still pebbled. Why the change to solid?
2 When? From this thread it points to the last 3 years of HJ knife production. If that's the case how come there are so many late pieces with pebbled diamonds?
I haven't checked out all the older threads so please forgive me if these questions have been previously answered. All I see on this thread are 2 solid red pins not for the knives with 1 glued in a messed with knife.

Hi Chucky, have a read through these threads & make your own mind up , there is also a good thread on WAF on the subject.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259949#Post259949

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290730#Post290730






Regards Mac 66.

Accidently found on www.germanmilitaria.com

What do You think ?

Looks genuine enough to me, little corroded on the edges this one

Another pin... may I remind you gentlemen that this is a dagger forum!

I wonder how a badge can get worn that way????

Best regards,

Herman