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#308870 06/14/2015 08:04 PM
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Browsing the Facebook I have found this red solid dimond which was found on Oksywie near Gdansk a few days ago. Remembering the earlier threds about its originality now I have a serious doubts. In my opinion this dimonds are period - that is a fact.

red solid a.jpg (115.06 KB, 396 downloads)
red solid b.jpg (117.34 KB, 393 downloads)
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Originally Posted By: Gottlieb
Browsing the Facebook I have found this red solid dimond which was found on Oksywie near Gdansk a few days ago. Remembering the earlier threds about its originality now I have a serious doubts. In my opinion this dimonds are period - that is a fact.



Great to hear this news Gottlieb, i always had positive opinions about the solid red enamel hj diamonds, thanks for posting this ground dug artifact.


Regards Mac 66.

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What you are showing, Gottlieb, is the "leftover "of a HJ pin: you can see it on the back side, where the safety pin was removed.

It has nothing to do with HJ-daggers.

You could post it on "Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum" if you want.

Best regards,

Herman


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Perhaps but this find proofs one thing: this solid red HJ diamonds are period so their existance as a part of HJ knifes is 100% possible. Personally I used to own a dug found HJ dagger with this kind of diamond ( presented here in this thread http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290730#Post290730). Now I have found a diamond found by a digger in northern Poland (I spoke to him) and I'm convinced RED SOLID HJ emblems are legit. That's all. Herman with all the respect to Your knwledge please face the truth.

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I would not waste my time discussing solid red enamel diamonds on here Gottlieb,

Last edited by Jim W; 06/15/2015 08:45 PM. Reason: flaming the moderator.
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"Politicians who like to silence the masses".

Back it up with facts Mac 66. I need you to give an example of politicians silencing the masses. If you are speaking of Herman asking you to quit being rude on his forum, that does not count. So you will supply factual examples or I am going to modify your post as it is an outright lie as far as I can tell.

As for Gottlieb. He is a valued member of this forum and no one is going to edit or delete his post.

Another misstatement by you Mac. Or just an attempt to cause problems on this form.

Your knowledge is welcome here but your attitude is not.

Jim W #308891 06/15/2015 08:08 PM
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Content deleted because no factual evidence was offered. Just more hysteria.

Last edited by Jim W; 06/15/2015 08:49 PM. Reason: house cleaning
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Since there are no facts offered, rather a continuation of the hysteria Mac66 shows on this forum, I edited his post for the obviouse attempt to create a problem.

Mac66 If you have had enough of this forum leave.

I will no longer give you warning before I edit your posts.

And to be very clear, you are a special case. I do not perform this service for just anyone. In fact, out of all the members here, you are only the second one I have to monitor.

Every other member can post what they want.

Jim W #308895 06/15/2015 08:54 PM
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Gottlieb, this forum has always acknowledged the existence of solid red HY diamonds. But on the pins.

To be clear, I have no dog in this show. Your argument is that there is a definite possibility that some of the solid diamonds may have made it to the Hitler Youth knives.

Based on my following this forum, I think you are correct. Not on any mass scale, but some must have floated over to the knife line. At the same time, while in Poland I definitely saw all the de Nazi Youth Knives that were refitted. As you know, the mere possession of a swastika in the East Block meant prison time. So almost all diamonds were pulled and later replaced.

But, I don't collect the HY knives.

Jim W #308897 06/15/2015 09:44 PM
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Apparently some people do not know My wife and I were among the first American Expats that moved to Poland right after the fall of the wall. I lived in Poland for 6 years and my friends were the militaria dealers and repairers. I saw hundreds of Hitler youth daggers.
To clarify, I meant all the daggers I saw were refitted with replacement diamonds. Those knives were found in the antique bazars. Both the knives and the bazars were plentiful at that time.

Jim W #308899 06/15/2015 10:05 PM
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I agree with You. Refitting is some kind of tradition - why You said above. All I know is that RED SOLID are legit and from time to time are seen in HJ knifes. Knife I used to have was not refitted and the diamond was placed before plates were riveted. That is all I know for sure. No more proofs belive me or not.

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Like I said, I suspect your correct. I do not know how many Hitler Youth knives were originally made, but it makes sense that a batch of solid diamonds made it to production, and were placed in the grips. The examples I was looking at were really picked over and had bad condition issues, but with shiny diamonds. But, what do you want for the equivalent of $50.00.



Last edited by Jim W; 06/15/2015 10:49 PM. Reason: clarity
Jim W #308910 06/16/2015 10:45 AM
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Jim,



What type of shiney new diamonds did you see fitted into these messed up hj knifes then ? solid reds or clear red enamel ?




Last edited by Jim W; 06/16/2015 02:22 PM. Reason: flaming
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The vast majority of the diamonds were the clear ones. After all, you could go to the corner shop in old town Warsaw and buy all the correct clear diamonds you wanted. It is only the older reproductions that were solid.

You could also go to any number of tourists shop right there and buy the factory new Hitler youth daggers with the correct diamond but with the lip on the scabbard.

Mac, did you notice that Gottlieb confirmed what I have said. So the Poles, and the people who actually have lived in Poland know I am being accurate. Yet you insist on disrupting this thread with condescending and rude remarks that I have to clean up for you.

Why not show just a little bit of class and leave..

Jim W #308916 06/16/2015 02:31 PM
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Jim,


To be honest with you, there is far too much control freaks on here anyway, you give them a little power & look what happens, ta ta, hey are you not suspended over on WAF ?

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Originally Posted By: Mac 66
I would not waste my time discussing solid red enamel diamonds on here Gottlieb,



Maybe you won't convince or even have some open their minds to possiblities or theories, but speaking for myself, I appreciate hearing both points of view on a debated issue.

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Mac, I have never been suspended anywhere, period.
Once again, not able to speak to the issues but rather trying to make this personal with a new lie. Just keep showing your lack of class even when other members are welcoming an actual discussion.

Dean, I agree and believe people should be able to discuss their points of view without being harassed by other members. I enjoy reading the different opinions and seeing the various artifacts.

This is as great web site and forum except for those people who come on here with just negative disruptive posts that add nothing to the conversation.

This solid red diamond business is a real bone of contention with some people, but in the end it is just a difference of opinion that will probably never be proven.

So move on and agree to disagree.

Jim W #308919 06/16/2015 04:12 PM
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Jim,

Sorry Wrong Jim W on WAF that is suspended, if the mods/Admin would be more flexible this would be a better place to be, as it was long time ago, so i heard wink


Dean read this thread on hj knifes with solid red enamel diamonds, the best thread on the net about this subject:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490491&highlight=solid+red


Think i,ll just lurk from now on crazy


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Talk about links. Here is a moderator who has decided to start taking the same type of action I have here.

Hopefully the two best web sites, will soon be a place where people can post without somebody coming in with all the negative crap.

Unfrendly posters

Jim W #308924 06/16/2015 07:57 PM
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[quote=Jim W]

Hopefully the two best web sites, will soon be a place where people can post without somebody coming in with all the negative crap.

Add WRF to the best forum list !



Fingers crossed Jim, Peace Man wink




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Mac, help me out here, WRF. full name and a link please.

Jim W #308927 06/16/2015 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jim W
Mac, help me out here, WRF. full name and a link please.



War Relics Forum http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/


Nice friendly place grin



Have a nice day



Cheers Mac 66.

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Looks like a nice forum Mac. I wish them good luck.

Jim W #308931 06/16/2015 10:23 PM
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This remains indeed a sensitive topic.

For over 10 years now, I am awaiting proof that full red diamonds were applied on period HJ's by particular makers...

But here is what a good friend collector of mine recently brought from Germany...

At last! A fine conditioned HJ with a solid red diamond, bought directly from the son of a former HJ member!

Except for some enamel loss, the diamond fits perfectly and does show some movement.

Best regards,

Herman

A1.JPG (92.63 KB, 236 downloads)
A2.JPG (85.85 KB, 236 downloads)

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Good show Herman. Well done!!!

Jim W #308934 06/17/2015 12:39 AM
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Just think if that had been posted two days ago.
So, is that proof? Or maybe?

--dj--Joe


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Wow ,solid red in the early type, what a surprise,i didn't expect that.
There should be apology to Mac

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Herman,


Have you now accepted that hj knifes with the solid red enamel diamonds are genuine TR period produced ?, i thought you would be very suspicious of an early no ricasso knife like this one you show with a solid red diamond ?, its a very big surprise to me to hear this from you !, i thought you would be more relaxed to find a late RZM knife out of the woodwork that belonged to an hj member ?

What is the maker & can we see close up photos of the rivets on the plain side grip to see if its been messed with ?, or have you done a hands on inspection & all is as it should be, unmessed with rivets ect ?, does your friends story seem legit to you & have you checked it out for yourself ?, sorry for all the questions but as i said i am very surprised sitting reading your post & photos at the moment.


Can you post your hj knife photos with your opinion to conclude these 2 solid red threads please: http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259949&page=1


WAF thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490941&highlight=solid+red



Thanks Mac 66.

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Thank you Mac, that is a very magnanimous response

Jim W #308955 06/17/2015 03:51 PM
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Not too fast gentlemen!

I had no time to terminate the story last night...

Knowing what I know about HJ's and full red diamonds and keeping in mind the golden rule of collecting: "Buy the piece, not the story", I made my collector friend a proposal: If he would remove the diamond and it would be prooved to be originally mounted, I was ready to pay him 3X the knife's price.

Here is the (evident) result:

A3.JPG (113.93 KB, 146 downloads)
A4.JPG (109.72 KB, 146 downloads)

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Yes, it is another glued-in badge diamond!

I like bets which I cannot looze... whistle

Best regards,

laugh

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 06/17/2015 03:58 PM.

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Not so fast Herman.

The insert is clearly an insert for a knife. It is not a modified pin that has been placed in the knife.

How do you explain the existence of this solid diamond with the proper attachments'?

Also, what is on the back of the diamond as far as markings go. what makes you think this is not a period pin?

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Hmmmmm, how could it be glued in and wiggle?
Odd about the two part story. When did all this come about.

--dj--Joe


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Getting more interesting laugh

Dave #308961 06/17/2015 05:08 PM
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Herman,


I thought it was to good to be true !

it was the early knife that made me suspicious with solid red diamond fitted, if it was a late RZM knife with a correctly fitted solid red i would not be so worried, ah well you had me going there for a while wink


@ Jim, the fitting on the back of the diamond shown by Herman looks very much like the type used on hj members hat/caps with the thicker tangs cut off imo, close up pix would confirm my thoughts .

Regards Mac 66.

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Thanks Mac

Jim W #308963 06/17/2015 05:18 PM
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Herman,what size is that solid red diamond?

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Gentlemen,

It was a small type badge diamond, of which the rear appears to have been grinded; allowing it to have been glued with some kind of elastic (sillicon?) glue into the grip recess.

Quite an inventive fabrication, if you ask me...

Best regards,

Herman

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That Otto Hoffmann hj pin is a Fake, these Hoffmann badges come in many different colours.


Seems Otto Hoffmann was a maker of cloth items







Jim W #308968 06/17/2015 10:31 PM
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Thankfully at last


Regards Sean
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