UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum HJ knife M 7/12

Dear members, I am not very experienced with the widely differing HJ knives. What do you think of this knife?
Thank you in advance, regards,

That is a topper, Wotan!

Very typical "ink stamped" RZM mark used only by WMW (Waffen fabrik Max Weyersberg)... and look at the condition of that knife!

The markings did not change through the years, but the motto was etched only on 1937 and 1938 knifes, for obvious reasons.

I'll add a few pictures for your reference purposes.

Great score!

Herman

Hello Herman, thank you very much. I vaguely did remember this "stamped" RZM mark but could not remember any details. Thank you again, you did help me a lot.
You have an impressive M 7/12 collection and the condition of your knives is at least eaqual!
Regards,

Mr Frederick J Stephens has been in contact with me concerning these INK RZM Stamps, ************* $$^^%%*&

Dave,


Why did you delete my post ?

Mac 66

As you can see, I have altered your post.

As Frederick J. Stephens is a member of GDC, I strongly believe that he should deliver such opinions himself and be prepared to discuss those opinions.

If you speak with him, please ask him to update us on the other half of Anthony Carter's book. He told me that it was due about 18 months ago, but I have seen nothing

10-4 on that !!

So my question is: What evidence do members have that these Ink Stamps are 100% genuine Pre45 applied ?

Opinions Welcome.

Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66,

Again, I will say that if Frederick has opinions, he must state them here, not via a third party. He is a member here and we look forward to hearing from him.

As for proof, that question could be asked of almost every Third Reich dagger. I am not aware of any period photos that show trademarks.

Dave i wish you would stop editing my posts, the last post was not a quote from Fred but mine, i have been in contact with him but he says he will contact you to re-establish his GDC account & will post his opinions when he can be able to log on.


RZM Ink Stamps Vs Stamped RZM stamps.


Why use an RZM Ink Stamp that ware off very easily compared to a deep stamped RZM stamped that will be there for life ?

Presuming he has not changed his email, I have sent him the necessary info. If he has changed his email from Yahoo, let me know. dave@germandaggers.com

Why use that trademark? RZM trademarks are quite varied. For an organization that was set up to bring uniformity to political items, it seems that they neglected to issue advice as to how their marks were supposed to be used.

My own thought is that while we collectors are riveted by trademarks and their nuances, the users at the time did not give a stuff. Particularly the HJ teenagers.

He still uses Yahoo so hopefully we will hear from Fred soon,


Here for your interest is a deep stamped RZM M7/12 mark

@Mac 66, this (shown on my knife and these by Herman) are NOT ink stamps but like ink stamp looking etched trademarks. They are not easily to be removed but can be removed like 99% of any etched Trademark, I think not without traces.
Why there are also stamped M 7/12 marks? I do not know but we have a vast field of anomalies in our field of collectibles.
Considering the quality of the knives, their parts, the laquer of the scabbard, the leather, I have no reason to think that they are not period.
Regards,

Wotan,

Sorry but i disagree ! these are indeed "Ink Stamps" & not like etched trademarks, these Ink Stamps only lie on the surface of the blade & do not penetrate into the metal of the blade itself, this is the reason why they can be easily removed by use,cleaning ect imo. i have no arguement with these hj knifes or there scabbards shown by yourself & Herman as they are genuine enough without a doubt, my arguement is why use a poor Ink Stamp when they could have used the deep stamp method like most RZM hj knifes from this period ?, were these hj knife blades never stamped during the TR period ? or were they left over knifes & found post war then stamped with these Ink Stamps because it was easier to do ?, these Ink Stamps are mostly used on cloth & leather as the ink impregnates into these materials easily & can last longer than being stamped on a hard metal surface i.e. blade. here is a photo of a worn RZM M7/12 for your viewing, see how the letter M is worn away !


Regards Mac 66

Why not have them forensic ink tested to resolve this issue.

Mikee, how would this be done & who could carry out such a test to prove the Ink was from the 1937-1942 period ?, not so easy i guess & if it could be done how accurate would it be & how much cash would it cost ??

Lets wait & see what Hermans opinion is on this subject after all he owns 5 of these hj knifes with Ink RZM stamps so he might enlighten us all on this subject ?




Regards Mac 66.

This is just an example, I'm sure there are many more companies but it's worth a try and amazing what can be done. Forensic Ink Testing

Interesting Mikee, looks like it can be done

Gents,

It really does not matter if it is a shallow engraving, some sort of photoengraving, or stamped with ink or acid ink. Once the product was made, perhaps inspected, and sold, the longevity of the trademark would have been immaterial. Many other RZM marked products had paper tags meant to be removed.

In fact, for an organization charged with (among many other things) bringing uniformity of materials to many products, they seem to have offered little guidance in how their M7 marks were to be used. Look at SS dagger RZM marks and you can find 13 different formats.

There is no doubt whatsoever that these WMW made HJ-knifes are period.

Only the top conditioned survided, because the marking does indeed easily wears off: turning most of these into the unmarked HJ.

I have experienced many times that collectors seem to be afraid of minty HJ-knifes, looking to well preserved to be 75 years old.

That fact, together with the unusual markings, keeps the "texbook collectors" away from these great WMW made HJ-knifes.

How can I prove that they are period?
Did you ever observed a faker using small diamonds on 1937 marked knifes and then swithing to the large diamonds when the year marking is 1938 or higher? Using steel hilts on early knifes and swithching to alloy for the later marked knifes? Same with the scabbard components? I don't think so.


I would like to see pictures of the complete HJ-knife and scabbard of that ricasso stamped RZM M7/12 piece.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


Just to put the record straight: i have no doubts about Wotans knife & your 5 hj knifes as they are genuine enough,it is only the Ink stamps i am questioning here. Frederick Stephens PMed me over on WAF concerning these Ink stamps stating that he does not believe them to be genuine & said these stamps should be stamped deep into the blade rather than a poor quality Ink stamp.

At that point in time i did believe that these Ink stamps were genuine then with some exchanged emails from Fred about the authenticity made me question these stamps & that is why i post here now.

The M7/12 1940 stamped hj knife has an interesting twist being dual marked with the Wusthof trademark stamped on the blade, so either WMW ran out of blades & bought some from Wusthof factory or vice versa ?, i will need find the pix & resize some of them so i can show them here so give me a little time.




Regards Mac 66

I can clearly see the letter M, even in this pic, at least the main part of it. When you look at this knife you clearly can see that the blade is sharpened. Such a rude treatment can (partially) remove each trademark, even a stamped one.

I did an aceton test on the RZM mark and -naturally- nothing did happen as it is etched not ink stamped.

It is sad that Mr. Stephens does not tell us his opinions here. Mr. Stephens has my high (!) admiration because of his fundamental (!) work on detecting fakes and detecting differences between fakes and original daggers. But also he sometimes is not unfailable and I cannot agree with him in some points I have seen written by him over the time. Eg. I cannot agree with his -revised- opinion concerning the RAD "fat man".

Just my personal opinion.

Regards,

Wotan,


Fair enough, thanks for your info on the acetone test, that is good to know, maybe Fred S. will log in sometime with his opinions, you can either believe him or not as it is only his sole opinion, at this point in time i am personally 85% sure that these Ink Stamps are genuine enough, maybe some close up pix from you or Herman would help this discussion move forward.



Regards Mac 66.

That is exactly what I thougt: only a mismatched Ed Wüsthof HJ can have the ricasso stamped "RZM M7-12" mark.

Because WMW only used the so called "ink stamped" mark on all their HJ-knifes made from 1937 upto the very end: 1942.

Best regards,

Herman

RZM M7/12 1940 with Wusthof trademark for your interest


Regards Mac 66.