Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
P
OP Offline
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
Hello.

I have a chance to buy this dagger tomorrow. Unfortunately these are all the pics that I have but I'll have a chance to personally examine it tomorrow. The thing is I have little clue what to look for. I've been a medals/orders/badges collector all my life and have paid little attention to the SS daggers. The seller wants 3k for it, is that a fair price? I know the guy and he's a fair fellow, not a collector and not a storyteller. This dagger was found on an attic of an old house and I 100% believe him. I know the dagger is authentic but I don't have a clue what type, if it has been messed with etc.

So all the info. appreciated. What indicators should I look for to know exactly what I'm buying and in what case should I skip? Can you help me out? Quick answers highly appreciated since I take off in a couple of hours and this is probably my only chance to get one!

Thank you!!!









2 a little bit better pics:






bla bla bla
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 714
Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 714
hard to say with this pics ...

Last edited by zoza; 07/23/2014 06:27 PM.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
M
Offline
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
I really do not understand the * I know the dagger is authentic* blurb, and why then the posting asking for advice? As for the story,lol!!!!!!!!!!!! everyone knows the advice concerning a story and a relic offered, I will not post the verse out of respect for our collective insanity

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
P
OP Offline
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
Hello. Thanks to both. Judging from what I got in the past from this guy who finds stuff for me and is not a military collector or a dealer and I find stuff for him, I know what he says is true. I'm quite sure it's authentic but I for sure might be wrong, who knows these days. You are absolutely right and I learned in the past to never buy stories. This time I won't either that's why I want your opinions. But what I'd like to hear the most is if everything on this dagger is the way it should be. Not just about authenticity but also about what type is it, if it has been messed with, cleaned, something replaced, if the price is fair and so on. I have not studied these daggers, I just have a good feeling about it.


bla bla bla
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Compare price!! with an authentic example..and the one this "Fair fellow" is offering.


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
P
OP Offline
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
Siegfried, I feel sorry for you if you buy pieces based on the price and not on the actual item. I cannot tell you how many times I've got an original item that was way cheaper than it is worth. I've been in this hobby for 10 years or so so and have quite a nice collection. I'm not a complete newbie you know, it's just that I don't know much about SS daggers! I've come here for help and not to be mocked by other forum members.

This is what I just posted on WAF:

Hello guys! First of all let me thank you for all the very helpful and informative replys. You've been a great help so far and I deeply appreciate it! I know I shouldn't rely on the forums but like I said this is not my field of expertise. I've been collecting awards all my life and only for the last year I have slightly looked into other areas of collecting. I wouldn't dare to buy a SS dagger on a flea market or even through a famous dealer without asking first and I had no intention to buy one. This chance came out of the nowhere and since I know the source who is a friend of mine and not a military collector and we have successfuly cooperated before this seemed like a good opportunity to finally get one. Actually I've been looking for the Witmanns book on the SS daggers for a while now but can't find one that is not over seas so I put this subject of collecting aside for a while.

Anyways. I've somehow managed to agree with my friend that I can take this dagger home with me and decide today if I want it or not. Tomorrow we'll meet again. He is willing to give it to me for 2800 eur. The story is it was found hidden on an attic and was not altered in any way and is 100% original. I do not buy stories, so let the pics speak for themselves. I took them myself this time so I hope they're ok! There's some corrosion on the back of the blade, an "he" stamped on the crossguard.

I was on a flea market today and met a quite famous European military dealer. He said he didn't study these daggers in depth but he pointed out that in his opinion the dagger and the scabbard don't match since the scabbard has this shiny appearence and the crossguards have more "mate" one. Is this true? This is already seen on all the previous photos and noone on this forum said anything? What do you think? He also said that the dagger is otherwise absolutely original.

So, what do we have here??? Quick answers are appreciated again since this is the D day. smilewink


[url=http://shrani.si/?f/fn/2ofuwFlf/img5205.jpg][img]http:

Last edited by Dave Hohaus; 07/25/2014 02:30 AM.

bla bla bla
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 257
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 257
Likes: 2
i see a big difference in materials of fittings...nickel on dagger ,plated the upper and middle on the scabbard and seems nickel again on the lower scabbard fitting,a different variety also on screws...dont' you have some pics of the blade?? i dont' want to comment the story but only the dagger..personally i would wait for something better..but it's only my poor opinion
smile

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
The chain appears to be a typical "Type I," made of steel. It would be correct for the dagger fittings to be nickel-silver. There appears to be a marking on the lower guard, But I can't tell if it' an SS district mark or an SA gau mark. Some early daggers that came with a "Type I" scabbard did have a gau mark. As noted, more and better photos of the dagger only would help. Does it have a maker mark? The grip looks okay and, based upon the limited and not too clear photos, nothing about the blade jumps out as questionable.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Part1san you answered a question for me based on your experience of 10 yrs. There are many variables one must address. Regrettably if you see my statement as a mock..you still have much more to attain. None of which was my intention. Keep studying and good hunting! smile


Last edited by Siegfried B; 07/25/2014 12:06 PM.

Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925
K
Offline
K
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925
The grip is fine!
But as stated,it needs some better pics of blade and scabbard,esp some shots of the chain links!
Regards,
Gerd

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,918
Likes: 3
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,918
Likes: 3
The cross guard is marked He. It has always been my understanding that this is an SA mark. the only marks on the SS cross guard are a I, II, or II. Doesn't that make this a poor fitting parts dagger in a chained scabbard?

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Hi Jim..yes the lower Guard is an early SA guard..odd to see that on a late Type I Chained SS..also the scabbard throat has been switched out. Take a closer look at the top guard to grip fit in Part1sans last post..first photo. Although we are used to seeing crap material SA and SS daggers towards the end of the war..but I would expect at least a little conformity with these Type Is..which we have seen better. I agree with Gerd..that better close ups of the chain are needed. Hard to see through the muck on the chain if the Kulturzeichen is there.

To clarify that this is not an attack on the original poster..but an observation only of the dagger in question since the question was raised in the first post.


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,002
Likes: 29
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,002
Likes: 29
I don´t want to comment this dagger in concrete as there ia an already older thread in another Forum concernig this certain dagger.

But -@Siegfried_B- : SA group markings and nicklesilver crossguards (there also occour zink/nickled and iron/nickled ones on Mod I chain daggers) are raight as rain for such Mod I chained original, period daggers.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084
Likes: 96
Agree, Wotan,

I've got one even more controversial: type II chain, but early maker-marked dagger with Gau mark.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 2
Thankyou Wotan...I do agree that towards the end of the period a mix of parts would of been used left over from early production. But personal preference and for my money,.I would prefer consistent period fittings..and not a Type I or II with alot of questionable doubt. Too much junk being put together these days when it comes to the desirability of SS artifacts.JMO

I love this hobby and cant help being a purist sometimes crazy Regards Larry


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,002
Likes: 29
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,002
Likes: 29
@ Siegfried_B, please keep in mind, that these Mod.I chained daggers are "textbook" or "pure" at their own terms! They were produced exactly these (different and interesting) ways during the period and the lacking experiences and knowledge of several "collectors" does not make them wrong.
It would be the same as we would think a HÖRSTER army dagger is not "textbook" because it does not look like a "textbook" EICKHORN army dagger. And at this state I always like to ask "who´s textbook"????
We do not know, when exactly these Mod.I chained daggers were produced. For me the different parts in use do not put them automatically into the "late" section. Moreover I think they did have their development at their own.
Concerning "wearing pics" I could find them documented at least around 1938, so before the war started, which is not such "late" for me.
I think these Mod.I chained daggers are one of the most misunderstood and ignored daggers of that period.
Just my humble opinion, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,002
Likes: 29
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,002
Likes: 29
I forgot to mention additionally, that currently there are very good faked Mod I chaines out there. They also come with scabbard and no dagger as spare part. Naturally they also do come complete with daggers. They can easily recognized by an experienced collector in hands but only with pics and/or under hurry it is harder to judge them.
Up to now there are certain features of Mod.I chaines which are not respected in these fakes but generally they do look very convincing.
Take care, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.

Moderated by  Dave 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,261,500 SS Bayonets
1,760,282 Teno Insignia Set
1,128,763 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
Luftwaffe Swords
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 07:29 PM
Paul Weyersberg Heer
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 07:13 PM
HJ Fahrtenmesser,
by OWN - 03/27/2024 07:05 PM
Wir fahren gegen Engelland - Battle of Britain
by Stephen - 03/27/2024 10:06 AM
Hiddensee brooch
by benten - 03/24/2024 04:13 PM
Latest New Posts
HJ Fahrtenmesser,
by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann) - 03/28/2024 04:43 PM
Wir fahren gegen Engelland - Battle of Britain
by Gaspare - 03/28/2024 12:34 AM
Paul Weyersberg Heer
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 11:30 PM
Luftwaffe Swords
by Tanker - 03/27/2024 07:29 PM
Frog question.
by Dutchman - 03/27/2024 03:27 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,652
Posts328,703
Members7,501
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
14 members (Mikee, OWN, Documentalist, Don Scowen, polop, Browning1900, Tanker, BAM, Stephen, Herman V. (aka Herr Mann), Julianek, ANTIK-1933, The_Collector, Jonesy), 590 guests, and 86 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5