UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Was the "DJ" knife really a late "HJ" knife?

An item in Tom Wittmann's stock - HYK #34889 - attracted my attention although I'm not an HJ/DJ collector.

The knife - see below - is what most seem to refer to as a DJ knife. It is the one without the diamond on the scabbard. I've also seen it sold at a premium as a BDM knife.

The knife is as expected and in great shape. It is the bag that caught my interest:

The bag states: “Verschriftsmässige / Fahrtenmesser / für die / Hitler Jugend / und das / Deutsche / Jungvolk”

BOTH ??

Tom Wittmann says "I have always felt that what we call a DJ knife was really the knife that was being made for both the Hitler Youth and the DJ after 1942 when the war was raging. This issue sack and accompanying knife proves this statement."

What is your opinion? Separate knives until 1942 then a single one for both? Something else?

And, if this knife without any diamond affixed is HJ/DJ then was there really a BDM knife? Does anyone have a picture of a young lady wearing such a knife?

Dave

hi dave/ members
as you know i dont post much but i believe you have a great case here with this original paper bag as good dna evidence for your case says right on it jungvolk . now correct me if im wrong my understanding for my over fifty years in this wonderfull hobby that hitler yugen boys started at the age of 9 years to 11 years then hitler youth 12 years age to 15 years age not sure about the girls bdm . i have never seen a picture yet of a bdm girl wearing this hj knife not saying it dont exist the maker of your pictured bag reads arthur schuttelhofer i wonder if he was the only maker of this hj knives all of the hj knives i ever seen the blade was all ways rostifi stainless and the cross guard and the hilt was all ways made of aluminum very lite weight . in my humble opinion i believe tom wittmann is right with saying that they were hitler yugen knives . also think about this for many years us collectors never bought any hitler youth knives with white or black plastic straps we all thought they were after market in place of the leather strap . boy i said this many years ago we should never say never in this great military hobby dave lets see what outhers think and thank you for your alertness in this matter i believe you helped to get us closer to the truth you made a difference thanks andy militarynut

Wow. The bag is great. Good stuff. Just when you think you have seen it all. Ha Ha. The only thing that could be better in this vane would be the heavy hilt Klaas/bag. Thanks for sharing.

Dave,


My opinion is the DJ knife shown here has nothing to do with the Hitler Youth or DJ, BDM, simply a non political universal knife made for the masses, the Hj knife was used by the Hj & Dj imo.

The paper bag shown was for a maker marked Artur Schuttlehofer hitler youth knife only, why isnt the so called DJ knife maker marked or RZM marked for A.Schuttlehofer?, these "DJ KNIFES" also come in many other disguises

Regards Mac 66.

I think Mac66 hit the nail.
I own a lot of "wearing" pics and even in the earliest ones you clearly can see that the DJ (IF they do wear a knife) does wear the "common" HJknife. I do have some pics where obviously private, altered knives are worn. But up to now I have never seen or heard of a period wearing pic whith anything which comes close to such a "Dj" knife.
Regards,

Does the maker's name on the bag imply that the knife contained must be maker marked? I am not that conversant with dagger bags.

Yes, i,m pretty sure this bag contained an early Asso hobby horse trademarked hj knife.



Regards Mac 66.

I agree: this appears to be a DJ knife married (not saying this was done by TW) to a bag for a classic HJ by Arthur Schüttelhöfer.

As you know I am a strong non-believer when it comes to DJ-knifes and all of the variants which circulate like Olympia and Nürnberg knifes.

Came to this conclusion after thorough examination of my own DJ-knife, which shows (real) age and wear. (see hereunder)

The construction and materials used for the DJ-knife, differ too much from the classic (even very late period) HJ's.

So they also have nothing in common with late Schüttelhöfer HJ's, to keep focus on the topic.

Best regards,

Herman

Dave there are very knowledgeable people on both sides of the "DJ Discussion". Talking with TW a few years ago he told me he has a period picture of a kid wearing one. He also spoke to this at an open discussion forum at the MAX a few years ago. I know you work with Tom at the shows perhaps you could ask him for it?

Quote Dave:

Tom Wittmann says "I have always felt that what we call a DJ knife was really the knife that was being made for both the Hitler Youth and the DJ after 1942 when the war was raging. This issue sack and accompanying knife proves this statement."

I disagree. Sill many questions to be answered

Regards Mac 66.

[quote=lakesidetrader]Dave there are very knowledgeable people on both sides of the "DJ Discussion". Talking with TW a few years ago he told me he has a period picture of a kid wearing one.

Paul,

That picture would need to be very clear indeed to make 100% sure its not a WW1 trench knife or an hj knife thats lost its diamond ? or some similar type knife ?

Regards Mac 66.

Mac,

I have slightly modified your posts. You can disagree with others but please do not use insults. Thanks.

Dave

In June of 1941 it was stated that the award of the SS Honor Swords was being discontinued due to a lack of steel, but there is some question as to the notice taking effect. But a year later it unquestionably was a "done deal". And we see (arguably) early 1942 RZM examples of various items, but not a lot of them. We also see in 1942 a sharp decline in the quality standards for military production. And there is much, much, more as Germany was short on the materials (and labor as workers were called up to serve after the mobilization was put in effect) from almost day one. So they find the resources to make unauthorized knives (for which there is no period documentation) for the younger boys so they will have a good National Socialist upbringing and make good soldiers for the Reich when they grow up?? Or for the young girls so they also will make good soldiers?? And that's without the obviously fake counterfeiters "Party Day" test piece I posted here 10 or so years ago, the terrible quality "Olympic" knives etc. etc. Regards, Fred

Dave, there was no insults from me to anyone on this forum, whats the use having a discussion ?,important info was deleted.


Mac 66.

I attach a period photo of a youngster wearing the regulation HJ knife. Maybe the HJ experts can make some deductions from an estimate of his age and uniform detail.
To me he looks young enough only to be in the DJ and having passed the requisite tests is allowed to wear the HJ knife, as opposed to the authorised wear entitlement of a full HJ member.

Mac,

Only things deleted were a couple of remarks that contributed no info, important or not.

I see some interesting areas to pursue:

Bags:

- Were bags with a maker's name exclusively used for maker/rzm marked HJ knives?

- Does anyone have pictures of HJ / DJ issue bags, with or without knives?

"DJ" Knives:

- Hermann has shown us his. Does anyone else have pictures to show?

- Are any of these marked in any way, not counting the Olympic ones? Dates? RZM marks

- Anyone get any from vets? Ron Weinand? Mr. Grant?

In Wear Pictures:

Thanks, Barry, anyone else?

Now,

Just to confuse things a bit, below is an image from my files. I know I downloaded it in 2004, but from where I have no memory.

This is the second bag that says HJ/DJ. Also has the maker's mark, but it appears to have an unissued DJ (?) knife with a tag.

Thoughts?

Interesting, Dave!

A theory which, in my opinion, makes sense is that these unmarked DJ's were fabricated just after the war and sold as souvenir knifes to the foreign, occupying troops:

- It explains why some (like mine) show the same age as period, regular HJ's

- Most DJ's bear no diamond insignum (or only an easy removeble one on the scabbard) and other 3R marks (like RZM) because that might have caused problems for the producer(s) after the war.

- DJ's also don't have the producers maker mark: it would indicate that the firm had most likely been working (making weapons!) for the nazis during the war.

- Just after the war, there was an abundance of plane wrecks of shot down Britisch and American bombers all over Germany, which could explain why the DJ hilts are always made of (during the war valuable!) aluminium. I have never found a period HJ with a real aluminium hilt. Before the war, this material was only used for certain Wehrmacht (most Luftwaffe) etched weapons.

- Maybe some firms did pack these souvenir knifes in leftover bags for period HJ's. This might also explain why so many original bags (and tags) are found in the US, Canada and the UK, rather than in Germany...

Best regards,

Herman

Gentlemen,

I agree with Herman. I've never seen an official document where you can read something about the regulations to a DJ knife and have never seen a picture of a of a kid wearing one. I have a calendar for the German state officers from the year 1936. In this book you can read that the HJ and DJ had a same knives(Fahrtenmesser). And BDM has no knives.
I have in my collection a very late HJ knife with a RZM label with an inscription "HJ.-DJ. Fahrtenmesser", which confirms that both organizations had a same knives.
Only my humble opinion.

Best,
Oleg.

And here my HJ knife.

Hi Oleg67,


This is very clear written "hard evidence" you have shown us from your 1936 RDB calender, also you show your top condition K&M trademarked RZM # 1942 dated hj knife with origional tag clearly showing it was for HJ & DJ, Superb!!


@ Herman, i totally agree with you, Aluminium was very precious during the period to feed the war machine, with all the plane wrecks post war there was plenty Aluminium around to produce these post war DJ knifes.


@ Barry, thats a great photo you have shown also, thanks.


Regards Mac 66.

Herman, I absolutely agree with you.
So what's the size of the diamond on the scabbard?
It must be the large one,right?
Is anyone have or seen the markings on these diamonds?

Stingray

Wow killer 1942 HJ!!

Photos may be the key to this. Finding HJ in-wear photos is not too difficult. The HJ seem to wear the accepted knife or no knife.

DJ Pictures are much harder, not the least because of their dark short pants which tend to hide a black knife.

This photo title includes "HJ" but some of them look pretty young. The one on the right with a shirt on seems to have a regulation HJ knife

So does the boy on the right ... but the dagger seems to be higher placed on the belt.

But, these two youngsters are wearing what appears to be a leather sheath for their knives.

Gentlemen,

I have to say that I'm not a DJ/HJ knife collector and my knowledge on these items is more than limited.

However I have some problems with labeling a "Fahrtenmesser" without any insignias of the former Nazi organisations as a DJ/HJ knife.

First of all as far as I understood the DJ and HJ the knifes were the same.
So imo Dave is perfectly right with his observation on the paper bag which started this thread.
This is pretty obvious from the regulations we have. The regulations are describing an identical knife, with the diamond insignia, for both groups.
I've attached the regulations and a photo out of my collection showing a DJ member wearing the described knife.

Please allow me to say a few words about "Fahrtenmesser" without any insignias.
I do remember when I was a kid back in the early 70's. For a two week trip into the "Zeltlager" my mother bought a Fahrtenmesser for me. It was exactly like the DJ/HJ knife, but of course without any insignias. And it was made in the late 60's, early 70's.
I think on the German amazon.de they are still available nowadays.

Of course, my friend Tom Wittmann could be perfectly right describing some "Fahrtenmesser" w/o any insignias as late war production HJ-knifes, but there is no regulation or any other proof until now as far as I understand, isn't it?

As said, it is not my field, and I would be happy to learn. These are just my two centavos on the matter and I beg for forgiveness if my thinking is wrong, which easily could be possible.
Best;
Flyingdutchman

"Fahrten Messers predate and postdate the TR period. You occasionally see pre-TR examples offered for sale. Most with no insignia, some with the insignia of the many youth groups that predated the forced consolidation of them all into the HJ.

I saw and almost bought a modern version in 1963 in Koln. Looks like the wartime ones except the scabbard has a lip ans their was a green fleur-de-lis diamond in the grip.

dave

Oleg,

Interesting period book and a super K&M 1942 HJ dagger, thank you for showing both!


Stingray,

Yes the diamond on the DJ scabbard is a late large one, but I cannot see the markings (would have to remove it).

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

my pleasure.

Best,
Oleg.

That K&M 1942 is an outstanding example of a late manufacture HJ-DJ knife! And I’m in agreement with the above comments as it relates to a postwar origin of the so-called BDM or it’s variants labeled as “DJ” knives (and other PW clones). I also very much like both the calendar, and the book excerpt from Flying Dutchman that provides a good visual reference of what it is that is actually legitimate. Instead of some of the guessing that has taken place in the past with different items trying to rationalize something for which there is no legitimate period evidnce.

With manufacturing standards for weapons continuing to go downhill in 1943, there was an ongoing project to save labor and resources so that they could be reallocated to other wartime efforts. With a formal recommendation in January of 1944, that was initially rejected, to eliminate both the cleaning rod and bayonet mounting bar (and other changes) for rifles. The program was officially resurrected later in the year as the Kriegsmodell. With the OKH (if I remember it correctly) also meeting in 1944 to discuss discontinuing the manufacture of combat bayonets. That was followed shortly thereafter by a major bombing raid on Solingen that destroyed much of the city, damaging many companies, and putting some of the larger ones out of business. So just when were these “BDM” (et al.) knives supposed to have been made?? Regards, Fred

Good honest Info & photos on this thread !

So i hope most collectors are now even more convinced that these so called "DJ Knifes" are post war produced & i hope the dealers that sell these for big money read this thread & the thread on WAF take note & stop selling these "POST WAR" knifes asap.


Link to WA thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606446


Regards Mac 66.

Can you please show us your proof that they are Post War ?

All the main facts are in this thread & WA thread, there is also a thread on Hj Research Forum, thats enough proof for me, if theres any solid proof there genuine TR period produced for the DJ we would all like to see it.


Mac 66.

Heres the link to a very good thread on HJ Research forum:


http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/lets-talk-about-deutsches-jungvolk-knife-bdm-knife-6802/

Link to Olympic & Reichsparteitag on HJ Research:


http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/let...g-daggers-6803/

I don't belong to WAF, and would like to have the knowledge here. Please post proof her on GDC to support your claim that these are post war.

Thanks