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JohnZ Offline OP
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Tom:

The mark I see the most often on Krebs blades is the small single oval. As to dating them, I cannot.

Fisher shows some other single and double oval Krebs TMs where the differences from the ones I show here are all in the pictures of the crowns... and these are supposedly found on daggers. So, more things for me to look for.

John


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JohnZ #241850 03/20/2011 11:59 PM
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Back around page 7 of this thread, I showed you a 2 line TM from Zeitler Vienna. Subsequent to that, we saw pictures of a single line Zeitler, Wien TM, both etched and stamped.

Well, this weekend another version of the Zeitler TM arrived in sunny Calgary.

This is a two line version, but has the name, Zeitler, in an arch above the word Wien.

It is a curiosity to me why a small maker, like Zeitler, would have multiple TMs... at least 4 that I know of, while other much more prolific makers like SMF or Weyersberg would have only one.

Here are pics of the arched Zeitler and a comparison shot of the straight line version.

John

TM Rounded.JPG (39.21 KB, 354 downloads)
TM 1.JPG (39.57 KB, 355 downloads)
TM 2.JPG (72.11 KB, 354 downloads)
TM 3.JPG (39.13 KB, 352 downloads)
Zeitler TM two line.JPG (38.55 KB, 353 downloads)

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JohnZ #241855 03/21/2011 12:13 AM
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John,
I have never seen this version of ZEITLER mark before!!!
It must be very unique.
Congratulation my friend!

Janos

Janos #241859 03/21/2011 01:41 AM
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John another ultra rare variation congratulations.

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Awesome thread....


Ive set a goal......find a FHH and buy it from a vet.
Heavy D #250161 08/12/2011 04:38 AM
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Just in from Tom Johnson is this, the most common Zeitler maker mark, in my opinion.

I still don't understand how a small, cottage maker like Zeitler would have 4 different TMs.

Here is my third mark, the single line Zeitler to go with my two liner and with the arched version just above.

John

TM.JPG (39.3 KB, 295 downloads)
TM 1.JPG (40.22 KB, 293 downloads)

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JohnZ #250162 08/12/2011 04:45 AM
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Hello John,

I seem to remember those! You have a great collection

Bob


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JohnZ Offline OP
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Bob:

Thank you. I now have 65 different TMs on Luft2 daggers. And still looking for about 20 more.

John


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JohnZ #250170 08/12/2011 11:47 AM
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Most informative thread ever, especially for maker mark variations. The last book I read mentioned "here are some variations on maker marks" and had photos of only 20 maker marks.
Anyhoo...here is one more pic.



Von zwei Übeln wählt man besser das, was man schon kennt.
spacey #250197 08/13/2011 04:47 AM
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Spacey:

Here are all my Tiger Tms.

The first one, like yours, is the large tiger with block lettering.

The second one is a small tiger with block lettering.

The third is the large tiger with script lettering. You can see the difference between block and script by comparing the 'T' in 'Tiger'.

The fourth one is a little contentious since it is script lettering but no Tiger. Was the tiger left off or was it erased?

John

TM Large Tiger Block.JPG (41.81 KB, 269 downloads)
TM Small Tiger Block Letters.JPG (39.17 KB, 269 downloads)
TM Small Tiger Script Letters.JPG (39.97 KB, 268 downloads)
Tiger 1.JPG (74.13 KB, 268 downloads)

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JohnZ #254701 11/21/2011 05:18 PM
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Here is the Peter Dan Krebs lobster mark on an artificial Damascus blade.

John

TM.JPG (39.84 KB, 326 downloads)
TM1.JPG (88.38 KB, 327 downloads)

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JohnZ #254757 11/22/2011 06:00 AM
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I don't pretend to be an expert on these things, but have noticed quite a few Krebs damascus and "artificial" damascus blades have surfaced lately, while they were all but unheard of not too long ago.

Grumpy #254788 11/22/2011 08:53 PM
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This is such an interesting thread, Thanks John for your enthusiasm, I could never get bored looking at all your daggers.

Cheers

Gary

Baz69 #254789 11/22/2011 09:07 PM
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Thanks Gary... I love this stuff, too. Can't you tell?

Grumpy, I agree that a lot of these are floating around. On the one hand, one assumes that these semi rare items, artificial and real Damascus, are surfacing due to their owners wanting to cash in on the relatively high prices for non controversial pieces. I myself have sold some pretty rare items (like my plain bladed Honour SS) in order to concentrate on my TM collection.

Artificial Damascus is an etch pattern and this one looks exactly like the one pictured in Wittman's Luft book on page 307. And, I got this from Tom, who should know his stuff in regards to Lufts, Navies and Heers.

John


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JohnZ #254792 11/22/2011 09:21 PM
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John,

I love that Krebs! A beautiful example certainly worthy of your never boring collection.


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Billy G. #259771 02/15/2012 07:46 PM
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Just arrived, here is a variation of the WKC TM.

This one has the large lettering making up the word 'Solingen'.

For comparison, I include the mark with the small lettering.

John

TM 1.JPG (39.8 KB, 417 downloads)
TM.JPG (38.68 KB, 415 downloads)
The Tw 1.JPG (41.68 KB, 416 downloads)
The Two 2.JPG (41.45 KB, 417 downloads)
TM.JPG (39.88 KB, 416 downloads)

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JohnZ #261498 03/12/2012 07:29 PM
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Here is a recent pickup from the SOS.

Max Weyersberg used several TMs, most notably the one we see most often is the WMW Waffen mark.

I managed to finally acquire one mark that I had been salivating over for a long time.

Here is the mark on a double oval.

I also show the other marks that I have on Luft2s.

John

TM.JPG (41.08 KB, 399 downloads)
TM 1.JPG (40.83 KB, 397 downloads)
TM.JPG (39.79 KB, 396 downloads)
TM.JPG (77.99 KB, 396 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #261538 03/13/2012 01:25 AM
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That is the coolest WMW mark John! Lets see the rest of that early bird! Congrats! Did you get it at the SOS?? Kevin.


It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
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Well done very rare grouping


Collecting Interests - Heer Daggers - Waffenrock - Portraits - http://WW2-Collector.com
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JohnZ Offline OP
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The Max Weyersberg came to me at the SOS.

I just returned from a very nice, but a bit long trip to Europe. My last week of the trip, we stayed in Budapest and, as we do every time we go there, we met with Janos of this forum and his lovely family. We had some great wines and some amazing palinka, Hungary's very fine answer to schnapps.

During our version of show and tell, I managed to convince Janos that this dagger really, really belongs in Canada.

So, here is my latest TM addition to my modest Luftwaffe collection.

Carl Wusthof is not known as a maker of Luft2s. They made SAs HJs and are listed as a rare maker of Heers.

John

TM.JPG (39.18 KB, 363 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #264025 04/29/2012 09:41 PM
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John, this is a truly amazing thread and a more amazing collection you have,it's going to keep me occupied for many may hours laugh thank's for a brilliant reference thread,
Ronnie

Last edited by 85ronnies; 04/29/2012 09:41 PM.
JohnZ #264442 05/07/2012 05:36 PM
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I started to read this thread and became mesmerised by the variety and scope of just what starting a collection can involve. When I began to collect I simply picked up items as they appeared totally unaware that there was such a complex and interesting history behind each one. At that time a dagger was a dagger and I all looked for was condition and pretty colours !!

Then I met Gary and few fellow collectors at my first ever US show, that was an eye opener. I bought books, joined forums, met and spoke to fellow collectors and broadened my knowledge base. I even began to visit fairs and shows, which I had never done before.

Despite having collected for a while now I was never going to have the time to dig deep into the hobby. The field was to vast and complex. Real life was always in the way and my collection had never been documented.

Threads like this one and my fellow GDC members have inspired me to take a better look at what I have. To document and share my collection where possible. Today I took a look at some of my Luftwaffe daggers in a different light.

It is thanks to people like JohnZ that this hobby continues to facinate me and as I approach a more relaxed time of life I will endeavour to rise to the challange and be a better collector.

Frank

spock #264444 05/07/2012 06:06 PM
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Gentlemen,

applause. What an informative thread. Thank you.

Rgds;
Hermann

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I agree with Hermann & Frank, it's threads like this that continue to keep the hobby interesting for me. Incredible the amount of minute differences in manufacturers' logos, if one wants to go through the trouble of finding each & every one. Seems John's come pretty close smile Well done John!


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JohnZ Offline OP
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Thank you, guys. It is feedback like yours that makes me continue this thread. Knowing that I am helping others learn, as others have helped me, is what keeps me going.

While not a new TM, this is my latest, an upgrade to one that I already have shown you.

It is from a Henckels Luft2, the one with the twins and the writing across the blade. And, such nice condition, too.

Thank you, Tom K.

John

TM Across Blade.JPG (39.01 KB, 409 downloads)

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I recognize that Henckels John! Brought it out of the woodwork a few years ago and passed it on to my friend Tom, the blade was turned around the other way when I found it. Glad to see one from my past has entered your fine collection! I have pictures of it before I wiped the dust and dirt off it, be happy to share them with you if you like. Kevin.

Last edited by heers68; 05/08/2012 06:09 PM.

It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
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Kevin I knew you would recognize the Henckels it’s a great looking dagger tuff letting it go but I am convincing myself I have to much stuff and trying to focus on the early army daggers.


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Yes, it is an upgrade that I purchased from Tom... it replaces a poorer conditioned one that I had found on e-ban several years back.

Kevin, any pictures would be appreciated.. here or send to my e-mail

jsfzeller@hotmail.com

John


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JohnZ Offline OP
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Most of us can recognize the small single oval CJ krebs TM... the crown over a 'cursive' K.

I have been lucky enough to find 4 variation on this Krebs TM.

Shown previously, were a large and a small single oval mark, as well as a large double oval.

Today, just arrived, is this small double oval mark.

To compare, I also show the two single ovals and the two double ovals.

I would never have imagined that a relatively small manufacturer like CJ Krebs would use so many TM variations, when a huge Luft2 maker like SMF only used one.

John

TM.JPG (39.98 KB, 346 downloads)
TM 1.JPG (39.18 KB, 348 downloads)
The Two TMS Dbl.JPG (39.87 KB, 346 downloads)
TM Sgl Oval Sm and Lg.JPG (39.55 KB, 347 downloads)
The 4 TMs.JPG (37.69 KB, 346 downloads)

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John, it is amazing!
What do you think: 4 different marks means 4 periods of producing? Can you make a chronology of the marks (early-mid-late)?

Janos

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When I took the daggers apart, I found the following:

- small double oval TM - tapered tang
- large double oval TM - wouldn't come apart
- small single oval TM - tang marked with a '+' inside of a square
- large single oval TM - no markings or anything unusual.

Based on this, I would guesstimeate the chronology of marks as above, with the small double oval as the first one used.

Anyone have nay other ideas?

John


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Btt.


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There are a few maker marks that exist in very small quantities. They may be the result of some very small makers building a few daggers to try to get into the lucrative Luft2 contracts that were available as part of the Nazi rebuilding efforts. These daggers would be made up of parts and fittings bought from other larger makers.

Then there is the rumour out there that some modern manufacturers located in the old Eastern Europe countries (the Czech Republic is oft mentioned) that are creating one off new makers using templates and stamps from these small cottage manufacturers.

I have several maker marks on Luft2 daggers that are not found in any list of Luft2 manufacturers.

Here is a new one to me (btw, most of these unlisted makers were purchased by me at no or only a very small premium over the more common makers or no maker varieties... thus arguing against these being made up to deceive and defraud collectors.

An etched Malsch & Ambron on a plated blade (the dagger has SMF fittings).

John

TM.JPG (40.02 KB, 414 downloads)
TM1.JPG (39.42 KB, 413 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #295809 03/19/2014 03:46 PM
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Here is my latest, an SOS pickup.


The maker mark is a lot closer to the ones we see one SAs for this maker than the above MalsCh & Ambron mark.

I have heard rumours that this mark exists on Luft2s, but I thought that it was just a rumour.

John

TM.JPG (39.81 KB, 382 downloads)
TM1.JPG (39.36 KB, 382 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #305691 03/02/2015 08:09 PM
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I have been searching for this for quite a while. Recently, this mark has appeared in this thread on an early Heer dagger by Tom K.

Not quite an SOS purchase, my good friend Stingray found this a couple of weeks before the show and gave me a good heads up.

There are three Holler used maker marks on Heers and on Luft2s.

The first mark is the one with 19 ticks on the thermometer on the right hand side. This is the earliest mark used by Holler on Heers and Luft2s.

The second mark is the 17 tick mark and the last mark is the 11 tick.

John

TM 19 ticks.JPG (39.4 KB, 303 downloads)
Holler 17 Ticks.JPG (38.75 KB, 304 downloads)
Holler 11 Ticks 1.JPG (38.24 KB, 304 downloads)

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JohnZ #310085 08/02/2015 07:16 PM
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A very interesting thread which I learned a lot from. Didn't dare to count the posted maker marks and figure out about how many daggers are involved here. I feel small now albiet I will buy my 4th 2nd model luftwaffe dagger at the end of this new month. ;-)


Regards, Wim

Last edited by Wim; 08/02/2015 07:17 PM.
Wim #315016 01/15/2016 02:20 PM
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JohnZ Offline OP
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I have 95 Luft2s as of today. This includes various maker marks, etched blades, artificial and real Damascus and a couple of oddball items (one postwar B&A, two PDLuneschloss with grip variations).

Some of you have asked me where I found these over the years. Here is my recap of my dagger sources (most of my dealings over the years have generally been positive, but a couple have gone way off the rails).

18 daggers from miscellaneous sources (Ivan, Tom, Eric, Stephane, Oldbrigade, etc)
18 from Paul Hogle
16 from Tom Wittmann
10 from Bob Rodgers
9 from Tom Johnson
6 from Doug Ritchie
5 from various MAX/SOS
3 from Craig Gottlieb
3 from Bob Iqbal
2 from Sterling Gambino, RIP
2 from Brian Maederer
2 from my Hungarian brother from another mother, Janos
1 from Bill Shea

I have to say that I recommend all of these guys, even Craig wink

J


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And I've seen John's collection of edged weapons and it's impressive!


Die Treue ist das Mark der Ehre!
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Originally Posted By: JohnZ
I have 95 Luft2s as of today. This includes various maker marks, etched blades, artificial and real Damascus and a couple of oddball items (one postwar B&A, two PDLuneschloss with grip variations).

Some of you have asked me where I found these over the years. Here is my recap of my dagger sources (most of my dealings over the years have generally been positive, but a couple have gone way off the rails).

18 daggers from miscellaneous sources (Ivan, Tom, Eric, Stephane, Oldbrigade, etc)
18 from Paul Hogle
16 from Tom Wittmann
10 from Bob Rodgers
9 from Tom Johnson
6 from Doug Ritchie
5 from various MAX/SOS
3 from Craig Gottlieb
3 from Bob Iqbal
2 from Sterling Gambino, RIP
2 from Brian Maederer
2 from my Hungarian brother from another mother, Janos
1 from Bill Shea

I have to say that I recommend all of these guys, even Craig wink

J


I'm surprised you don't list any that you turned out of the woods. At least picking them up as you have listed you can get the condition and maker you want.

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At the SOS this year, my friends Kevin and Tom found this Luft2 sitting on Joe Pankowski's table.

It is a correct configuration Klaas Luft2 with a unique to me trademark. There are slightly larger than normal kissing cranes alon stamped onto the blade, no writing at all.

Here it is along with the others that I have:

- kissing cranes only
- kissing cranes over Robt Klaas
- kissing cranes over Robt Klaas on a so called 'funeral dagger'
- etched circular trademark (the same one as we find stamped on etched Klaas bayonets

Note that the middle two are the same mark only on 'different' types of Luft2s.

How many more variations are out there?

TM1.JPG (39.31 KB, 146 downloads)
TM2.JPG (38.76 KB, 146 downloads)
TM.JPG (41.66 KB, 146 downloads)
TM.JPG (39.25 KB, 146 downloads)
TM.JPG (39.09 KB, 146 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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