UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum General Army Dagger

This is only the second so called Generals dagger I have seen. So I posted it here for review and comment. Although it's hard to see their are traces of gold throughout the fittings and scabbard. It's odd how the cross guard stands out with the gold finish.

One more photo of the blade it's odd that you don't notice any cross graining.

I'm still not convinced these were actually General's daggers.With all the Generals in the German army at the time,shouldn't there be a lot more of these daggers around?
And why just the crossguard?Why not have all the metal parts plated?

You would think at there would be at least some traces of gold on the ferulle and the pommel, although im not able to see the pommel clearly on the pics. One more thing for me is the blade is an eickhorn and the crossguard doesnt look vey eickhorn to me. JMO

Regards Adam

Can't find a match for that guard.
With as much gold as there is on the guard there should be more than just traces of it left on the other parts.

Could it be a Herder?

Looks a lot like a Herder,but with much less detail.

Maybe if some one coated the crossguard with the gold colour,(after 1945 as i couldnt see it being done at the factory if the crossguard were to loose most of its detail) they put way too much on which has covered most of the detail? Although there is wear on the eagles head which would be a good thing, the gold colour looks too shiny for me. Almost looks like paint! I could be wrong tho JMO

I personally don’t like it as already said the non eickhorn parts are a problem and the biggest is the gold was applied after the crossguard was worn down no chance IMO this is a period dagger.

I totally agree with Rich. There should be a lot more of these "generals-daggers" around if there was really such a thing as a generals army dagger. JMO.
Regards, Dan

Generals daggers do exist if you have some period catalogues leaf through the Eickhorn book and it is defenitely its own dagger, I believe Col. Johnson has period sales drafts for general daggers so make no mistake they do exist although i dont think this is one of them

^ This being the first question that needs to be answered in my opinion. That alone would be enough for me to walk away without all of the other issues.

I agree genuine generals daggers exist, but I don't think this is one of them. It looks like the crossguard was buffed, then plated. A pretty puny effort on somebody's part. I have seen one Eickhorn personally that was an absolute beauty. All the fittings had an "old gold" look and it was near mint, in a presentation case. I haven't seen one that even approaches it in condition or beauty since then. Not to say others don't exit, but that one spoiled me on these daggers.

Thank God for digital cameras I think mine has saved me much money. All the issues said with this dagger were also a concern with me. I think I will pass on this one. Who knows maybe I will stumble on a good one at another antique store.

I just got a General's Dagger with hangers out of the woodwork from a veteran by Herder. I will post pictures this week and show the identifying marks and the fact that the ferrel, under the knot, is bright gold with traces along the sides of the scabbard and the screws in the scabbard are also gold. The gold on the crossguard has faded just like the late war U-Boot Badges with the obvious coating you can see on the surface. Hanger clips also have traces of gold.
From this dagger, I would say that MOST General's Army Daggers were produced in the 1942/43 period and faded, just as other items with a gold finish did at that time.

Sight unseen I can’t speak to all daggers. But on a number of those reported to be “General’s” daggers the “gold” looked like it was a yellow/gold colored zinc chromate (aka zinc dichromate) layer applied to prevent a specific type of corrosion. A layer which over time had adhesion problems and tended to fall away. FP

Fred,

What proof have you that a yellow/gold colored zinc chromate layer was applied to Heer daggers ?

Dave

Dave,

Not the first time this has been discussed, I'm going by what I’ve seen. And I’ve also traced some standard industrial practices back to at least WW II. And before in the automotive industry, but my immediate recollection is not 100% on that without looking.

But if we totally disregard for the moment the daggers where the remanents of a zinc phosphate finish is seen on top of a gold colored finish over zinc plating (which is seen from time to time with various daggers and hanger parts). And we look at all of the thousands upon thousands of the nickel plated zinc crossguards, bayonet and knife hilts etc. etc. where the plating is not vanishing like it does with the “golden” daggers - there has to be a reason. Because genuine gold is even more impervious than nickel to exposure to the elements.

And there is one really easy way to tell if it's actually gold plating or not. Actual gold is not affected by most common acids. So if it's really gold. A small droplet of a fairly reactive acid in some out of the way place like the inside of a part will have no effect. But if it's zinc, it’s going to react ..............

Best Regards, Fred

Fred,

As I said,

What proof have you that a yellow/gold colored zinc chromate layer was applied to Heer daggers ?

Dave

Dave,

The discussion I found some notes from in a GDC thread was at the end of 2008. But I have not had much luck finding old threads, so I will have to see what images I have. Because it was in the images where some things made sense, but some did not. I also did not say that zinc chromate was applied to all Army daggers or hanger parts. Believing it to be more a matter of the maker's preference (also seen with some Luftwaffe daggers and hanger parts). BTW: I (now) wish I had not traded it, but one of my Army swords was gold, over copper, over zinc. And you could see all three on the pommel which was worn, so I will also have to see if I can find a few pictures of comparable examples.

Best Regards, Fred

Specifically asked was:

First, I am speaking only to what are known to some dealers/collectors as the “airplane gray” types of finishes. Not a term you will find in any period German source, but that is what some folks call it. As I mentioned before, this is not the first time or place the topic has surfaced. And I would rather have gone forward from earlier discussions - so I will try and keep this very brief. I’m also going to apologize up front. Because not remembering what item came from what source or thread, I’ve just pulled randomly those images I’m going to present just to illustrate some of the various points. So where I have it - I’m deleting the owner’s names so they don’t become a part of the discussion unless they want to do so.

But I will start off with what looks like a gold plated example which is an obvious fake - but one where the base metal can be seen through a break in the plating. And then I’m going to switch to Luftwaffe daggers and hanger components to show that it was not just Army daggers. With the first two images being that of some metal components and how the finish wore off in stages.

Some Luftwaffe daggers.

One more. And an image with labels showing the different stages. PS: A 1936 dated U.S. patent for zinc chromating was granted to an E. J. Wilhelm - the results of which were used extensively commercially during WW II. Regards to All, Fred

bump:

Interesting thread, thanks to all who posted.

Harry

Of thirty-six generals in Hitler's army, twenty-six were removed from their post, of whom three were executed and two were dishonorably discharged; seven were killed in action and only three remained in service throughout the war without disciplinary action. If only one of these daggers still exist, that puts them in a very rare catagory

Source: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWgermanA.htm

Harry