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Hi Guys, As the hungarian dagger market has became more of a minefield than anything else I thought I will verify this Brannik blade with the forum members. From my pespective it looks decent and WWII period. On the blade is writen"Duty and Honor" in Bulgarian. This dagger has been produced for only 3 years from 1941-1944,when Brannik was dismissed.
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The first question is the emblem. It seams to be inserted. I have also seen a silver - not gold emblem on other auctions as well as the fact that it has the red background. Is it correct?
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the second doubt is the blade - although I like the maker mark should it not be a bit more wider in the central part?
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Finally the scabbard back side. What do you think guys??
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While no expert on these youth knives, I can tell you the motto, makers mark and blade are correct. I see the grip plates have not been messed with and I know that the grip inserts are in fact inserted in the grip plates in the originals as is this one. However, I can not speak to this specific insert being original because I have nothing in hand to compare it with.
Hopefully, the other members can comment on the scabbard. The scabbard looks correct to me, but again, I have little knowledge on these youth knives.
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Here is my "Brannik". I have shown it long time ago and there Ron Weinand has classified it as "original". The emblem is significant different. My exemplare has a leightweight grip (yours do look to me more like an iron one). Blade etching on your speciman looks ok. Perhaps yours is simply an obviously very hard worn one with an added (gone to time) emblem? Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Wotan can we assume the finger guard in Overlords example has simply broken off over time, then been filed smooth?
Paul
FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
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Hello Paul, yes, I think so. Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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I found another one submited by pesho to a separate forum here. I post for reference but seams like there is a third pattern of the emblem. Were there more than 1 pattern than?
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The emblem on Wotan's dagger and the Pesho dagger look the same to me, only in different condition.
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Guys ask Paul if I remember he had one for sale lately.Ted
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Like Wotans mine had an aluminum hilt. The etching was thicker and the emblem different. The rivets were also aluminum. I do not consider myself to be an expert on them. I hope my pictures help.
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Sorry for the late respond in the topic. These knives are very rare. Brannik organization was small pro Nazis organization. They had their own uniforms and rangs. When the communist regime came on power all Brannik members were in persuit of communists and many of them have exterminated the knives, photos and other evidence for their membership in Brannik organization. Many knives have been modified – the grip emblem has been taken out and engraving on the blade has been deleted. Many other knives have been confiscated and destroyed by the communist. For the knife shown by Overlord: The buckle is original , but the belt not - I suppose that is from Army uniform. As Paul mentioned already finger guard has been broken. The grip emblem in fact is Brannik badge, which some body inserted on this knife. The blade is original, but unfortunately has been sharpened. The inscription in Bulgarian language means Duty and honor. On the reverse is Bulgarian master’s mark.
Last edited by pesho; 09/22/2011 10:02 AM.
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OverLord Brannik and Boy scout were different organizations. On top is Bulgarian Boy scout knife. The both knives a similar and have only different grip emblems.
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I would like to share with you one extremely rare Brannik knife from my collection. I have seen only 3 pieces,unfortunately all were with out grip emblems. The knife is smaller that others and has brown painted scabbard. There are two suppositions: - these daggers have been designed for Brannik girls or - these daggers have been designed for Brannik members aged 12- 14 years old. Due to the fact that I couldn’t succeed in finding any documents for Brannik organization from this period I don’t know the truth. I’m afraid that all documents have been destroyed.
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Intrestingly this is a Solingen Klaas production... Maybe the manufacturer has some info on them in their factory catalogue?
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I'm concerned, and this is the problem that I'm having with a whole class of these knives inasmuch as there are a (relatively) lot more of them in circulation now than there were years ago. With a number seen in as new or near new condition. Aluminum hilted ? And it seems now that an etched (sometimes lightly) logo version has been added to some previously seen stamped ones from a German maker with non-aluminuim hilts. With Bulgaria at that time a poorer more agrarian nation, with not much of an industrial infrastructure, that was using arms of the type of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire/other sourced (Mannlichers etc.) and joining the Axis powers on March 1st, 1941 (having reasonably friendly relations with Germany before then). But not going along as a participant with the attack on Russia. With the vast bulk of German HJ knives coming from the lengthy occupation of the country at the end or postwar. And how many eligible youths (only "Brannick", not other groups) were there in Bulgaria before the war (ie: Bulgaria's involvement)? That would have been entitled to buy one of these knives, much less have been able to afford one (as compared to Germany's Hitler Youth)?? With even in Germany no more civilian production (ie: series production of non-Wehrmacht contracts) as of early in 1942. Fred
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I HAVE FOUND MY BOX OF BRANNIKS . THE SMALL ONE AND RED DIAMOND ONE BOUGHT MANY YEARS AGO FROM AG MILITARY .RECENTLY BOUGHT THE OTHER TWO OUT OF A LONG TERM COLLECTION. RARE ITEMS. DIPPY
Last edited by diplo matt; 01/26/2013 12:08 PM.
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Diplo matt unfortunately only one of yours Brannik knives has a proper grip emblem. The both knives in the middle had a Brannk badge inserted on the grips. Robert Klaas knife should has different grip emblem.
Last edited by pesho; 01/26/2013 02:32 PM.
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Dear diplo matt, Yes it's true that all Klass which I have seen were without grip emblems, but I have seen Kurt Glemser's book too.If you have it, please have a look and you will see how the original grip emblem looks like.
2.PNG (98.78 KB, 218 downloads) 11.jpg (13.33 KB, 218 downloads)
Last edited by pesho; 01/26/2013 06:05 PM.
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I assume you are refering to volume four page 206 to 208. I still ask the question how come mine is in very good condition and definately un messed with and that one has obviously been round the block and stands more chance of having its badge changed, mine is also a matching pair to the larger one on page 208 unlike the small klass next to it.Or i have heard theories very recently that nobody really knows due to lack of photos or documentation maybe even different areas had different badges after all no rzm standard here.So as i have the best condition one that matches its big brother i propose mine obviously closest to manufacture made the one i own is correct.lol dippy the doubter
Last edited by diplo matt; 01/26/2013 06:25 PM.
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While I'm certainly no expert in Bulgarian history, my interest originated first with the rifles which were not commonly found in the U.S. With my understanding being that when the country changed governments (1944), and actively fought alongside the Soviet Union there was a "house cleaning" (to use an expression) consisting of prison, executions, etc. of what was deemed to be monarchist - fascist leaning. With what I found of interest but don't have a way of confirming, was that under the old regime there were three movements: The National Legion Alliance, the Bulgarian students' organization, and the Brannick (that were high-school students(?). Which altogether totaled 60,000 members? Fred
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The both knives have different shape of the place where the grip emblem is inserted. Can you see the small bulge? You can’t insert a flat emblem.
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Well i give in the only one we can see in real life is mine but sherlock is trying to prove his without an emblem is real and mine with it is wrong.Back to the pub for me. tipsy dippy
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Mate, In my country this lot costs less than one beer in London pub. There are companies offering manufacture and professional assembly and many dealers used their service. What do you think, what is your supposition, why main and other 3 Klaas knives in Bulgaria are sill without grip emblems?
Last edited by pesho; 01/27/2013 02:48 PM.
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We appear to have a situation here similar to the de nazified Hitler Youth daggers where new insets are being manufactured. I know these grip inserts have been offered by at least one major dealer. this is always an unfortunate developement.
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We appear to have a situation here similar to the de nazified Hitler Youth daggers where new insets are being manufactured. I know these grip inserts have been offered by at least one major dealer. this is always an unfortunate developement. It's a very interesting development. And something else that was not lost on me was what I think pesho was trying to describe as a relief cut for an emblem (if I'm interpreting the image correctly). Or for that matter, that the knives with the Bulgarian Boy Scout and the Brannick emblems have what looks like the the same blade logo. Recess in the grip for an emblem, with matching refections in the images for the hilt and rivet material (so I'm assuming that they are the same type of metal). Fred
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Im getting a bit lost with all of this .I really like all of my brannik knives and trust the sources they come from and the timeframe when first purchased many moons ago. I may have got this wrong but are you telling me dont trust any items coming out of bulgaria as they are easy to reproduce and are. dippy
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dipl matt, I would never say "don't trust any items" coming out of any country, let alone Bulgaria. Dressed up and modified pieces come from everywhere.
The problem is that these practices cast doubt upon all originals and when there is not that much documented or known about them, it is easy for a forger to "replace" an emblem and get away with it..
I have originals from Hungary, Italy, Germany, all devalued because of copies, often factory reproductions. It is an unfortunate part of collecting.
The posters here are not "down" on Bulgaria, simply speaking the truth, about some items offered for sale these days.
Jim
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ALL of the original Branniks that I know of that have came directly from US veterans had been in super condition and have the name STOCKO on the back of the female part of the leather snap button. The fakes I have encountered do not. Also, for me, the class is still out on the smaller version as I KNOW Klaas DID produce these post war in nickel silver and aluminum, but are slightly different from Third Reich productiuon Ron
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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Irrespective of any leftover supplies that were still in existence in Germany and for how long - from my perspective the STOCKO snap fasteners might not be as much of a “litmus test” for the knives in question. Remembering from another discussion on one of the forums a while back, where a German participant stated that the company did not go out of business after the war and was still in operation (a link is posted below). With the matching type of logo on the Boy Scout knife blade, and some of the 'Brannick' knives probably of more interest. But unfortunately not being able to interpret the markings, I don’t know what company that is, or its "core" (primary) business. But it seems to be clear that the knives were made in Germany. With aluminum a very popular postwar material for hilts (which it still is decades later with the many examples of fake “TR” themed knives that have been created for the “collector market”). Fred Stocko Fastners GmbH
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I never contended that Diplo matt’s knives are fake.The knives are original, I only express my modest opinion that some grips emblem are not correct for these knives.
Well in the next couple of day I’l try with my horrible colonial English to give some further information.
Small inrtuduction, before to make comparison of these knife.
Scout organization established in Bulgaria back in 1911 by Zhekov N. General, Commander of the First Infantry Regiment. In the second half of 1924, the organization of "young Bulgarian intelligence" is recognized and accepted as a full member of the World Bureau of the Boy Scouts based in London By 1926, the High Committee reported membership of 6,147 scouts. Beginning of october 1926 Boyscouts and eight other organizations ("wolf" Bulgarian Cycling Union, hunting organization, conspiracy Sea etc..) established the Confederation for Physical Education.
On 29th December 1940 Twenty-fifth Bulgarian Ordinary National Assembly passed a law to organize the Bulgarian youth in the state organization - "Brannik."
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In 1941 Brannik ogranization had approximately 40 000 members They had own by-laws, uniforms, ranks etc.
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The structure has two major branches – students and not studied and boy and girls Age 10-14, 15-17, 18-21 and reached until 30
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I know that many people don’t believe that Brannik leader dagger has existed but I’ll post some very rare pictures. General Ajrjanov was comander of Bulgarian air forces from 1943 untill 1945.Killed when communist came on power. 1st picture General Ajrjanov visits to Brannik practical training for glider pilots. Please pay attention how the Brannik and other military salute the general.
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Personally I’m shame from this historical period of my country Bylgaria. Form 9th September 1944 until end of 1944 thousands piople have been killed without without charge or trial. Many others have been arrested and disapiared on the way between their detention to the prisons. Thousands succeed in safety living Bulgaria. From 20 th december 1944 to 2nd 1945 have been arrested 38,630 people and than convicted by People's Court Among those sentenced to death are three regents, 22 ministers, eight royal advisers, 67 MPs, 47 generals and colonels and many others. Thousands of others were sent to concentration camps or repatriated to small towns and villages, and their property confiscated. Many fearful of Communist terror Brannik members or their parents simply destroed all evidence of their belonging to Brannik.Many Royal oficers destroyed their weapons, uniforms and medals too. I've seen, and in my hands are irretrievably lost past dozen knives, swords and dirks. Unfortunately I did not document all, but I still have many copies and if there is interest I'm ready to post some of them.
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I'm ready, Fire away please. This has become one very interesting thread! Thank you.
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please tell more very interesting indeed ,by the way glad you believe by knives are ok . The small klass has a stocko button dippy
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please tell more very interesting indeed ,by the way glad you believe by knives are ok . The small klass has a stocko button dippy Conratulations.Whats about other three knives, are they have stocko button too please?
Last edited by pesho; 01/28/2013 07:36 PM.
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The first 2-3 months after the Communists came to power homes and barracks raided and confiscated firearms and edge weapons, uniforms, medals, etc. All collected throughout the country weapons were transported to Sofia. There is evidence that some of the weapons, including swords, dirks, knives, were melted in a military arsenal in Sofia. Another part of swords, dirks and uniforms after they were removed all royal attributes - monograms, signs, buttons and insignia are awarded to the Communist Army officers and were used to 1949-50. A small part of these items were kept authentic appearance and later to about 1980 were used for filming with historical themes. There is no information on how many knives were hidden and saved from confiscation. I have no information on how many of them are removed Brannik emblem, but I've seen Brannik knives mounted emblem of Bulgarian tourists society, with the emblem holes filled, even with botton from Soviet uniform.
Time to talk about the actual knife. Company "Factor" is produced knives for touristics companies. Unfortunately I have not found information about when this company was established, when and how tourist knive have been produced. The only I know is that in 1950 this company does not exist.
If you look at the logo you see is edelweiss.This is still the logo of the Bulgarian Tourist Union today. The knife has no badge and no inscriptions on the blade, only master’s mark. This knife was not forbidden by the communists and therefore many people eliminate Brannik emblem and filled the hole to make it look like tourist knife.
Last edited by pesho; 01/29/2013 08:45 AM.
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The first 2-3 months after the Communists came to power homes and barracks raided and confiscated firearms and edge weapons, uniforms, medals, etc. All collected throughout the country weapons were transported to Sofia. There is evidence that some of the weapons, including swords, dirks, knives, were melted in a military arsenal in Sofia. Another part of swords, dirks and uniforms after they were removed all royal attributes - monograms, signs, buttons and insignia are awarded to the Communist Army officers and were used to 1949-50. A small part of these items were kept authentic appearance and later to about 1980 were used for filming with historical themes. There is no information on how many knives were hidden and saved from confiscation. I have no information on how many of them are removed Brannik emblem, but I've seen Brannik knives mounted emblem of Bulgarian tourists society, with the emblem holes filled, even with botton from Soviet uniform.
Time to talk about the actual knife. Company "Factor" is produced knives for touristics companies. Unfortunately I have not found information about when this company was established, when and how tourist knive have been produced. The only I know is that in 1950 this company does not exist.
If you look at the logo you see is edelweiss.This is still the logo of the Bulgarian Tourist Union today. The knife has no badge and no inscriptions on the blade, only master’s mark. This knife was not forbidden by the communists and therefore many people eliminate Brannik emblem and filled the hole to make it look like tourist knife. Pesho, I never doubted what you said about the Brannick knives (the genuine ones) being very rare in your country, or your other observations. With this latest information connecting together what I have observed with many of these 'other' knives that I have seen for sale, or that are currently in circulation, discussed in the past etc. With poorly installed emblems etc, etc, and some of the other arguments or points made not making much sense. With my own sense of these knives (with the “Factor” logo) that they were almost certainly made in Germany. With the Factor company subcontracting them to a company there. In other words, acting as a distributor of the knives in Bulgaria. With my sincere thanks for taking the time, and making the effort to explain what happened in Bulgaria at the end and after the war (which I found very interesting). And trying to educate collectors with what some of us in the U.S. call a “reality check”. With my Best Regards, Fred PS: I will have to go through the images/information that I have to see if there are some good examples that show how the knives were altered. And I’m very open to seeing any additional specimens that others may have.
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I'm agree that many things are unknown - when and how Brannik knives have been produced by "Factor" and Klaas, how many of them destroyed, thrown in the rivers, burying and how many survived, but one fact is well unknown by us the Bulgarian collectors. The truth is that when Royal items began to appear on the Bulgarian market around 1985-90,most of Brannik knives were without emblems and immediately found a company that began manufacturing and assembly. Even one of my "Factor" knife is with a non-original emblem, but I know this fact, because most Bulgarian collectors we can recognize genuine and fake emblems. Can you presume which one is fake?
Last edited by pesho; 01/29/2013 08:16 PM.
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To recognize fakes is very difficult , needs hand inspection and, a lot of experience, but: 1. - Most badges and emblems are glued . This is easy to identify. But I know that there are companies using the original method of attachment. 2. - Places for emblem and Factor and Klaas equal. Because fakes are quite a bit smaller than the original, you can see that there is a tolerance between the emblem in the nest. But you must have an original knife to compare clearance. 3. - Sometimes installation is not professional and emblem stand crooked and not perfectly aligned with the surface of the handle. I can not explain why use Brannik badges. There are uncommon and expensive than fake Brannik emblems. Moreover, their profile is such that you can’t fit well it .My supposition is that badge are fake too.
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I'm not sure that "Factor" knife has been produced in Germany. The quality of the blades is obviously different. Blade "Factor" has poor quality and shallow master’s mark. My supposition is that “Factor” company ordered handles and sheaths from Germani, produced the blade and assembled the knives in Bulgaria.
One spesifaying - Klass knive has magnetic hilt. Factor’s knives not.
Kurt Glemser whote: “The “B” on a red background stands out considerable distance from the hilt.” Here's the proof. What I was trying to explain to Diplomatt is that there is no way flat emblem can be mounted on Klaas knife.
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I'm not sure that "Factor" knife has been produced in Germany. The quality of the blades is obviously different. Blade "Factor" has poor quality and shallow master’s mark. My supposition is that “Factor” company ordered handles and sheaths from Germani, produced the blade and assembled the knives in Bulgaria............ That may very well be the case for the blades, but in my searching I've also seen different quality etches, and finishes with some otherwise new or near new looking blades. So it makes me wonder why? And some of especially the earlier postwar imported to the U.S. blades made in Germany were of poor quality in not just the finishing which varied. But also the quality of the steel which was sometimes lacking. So that is something else that could be looked into. BTW: Some of the TR era political daggers were nicely made, but of a very uneven often poor quality steel (by U.S. standards). Best Regards, Fred
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All Brannik knives have been produced till 1944. No way after this period the Communists to order, paid and imported knives Brannik from Germany. This is ridiculous.
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I think that there may be a misunderstanding. With some of the knives that are for sale now, or recently sold, being what I was addressing. With Bulgaria having the assistance of Germany for example in arming its soldiers, presumably because it did not have the industrial capacity to do it by themselves at the time the arms were needed.
PS: And as I stated earlier, after early in 1942 - I seriously doubt that the Germans were exporting any dress sidearms or parts of any kind. Best Regards, Fred
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.......... One spesifaying - Klass knive has magnetic hilt. Factor’s knives not.
Kurt Glemser whote: “The “B” on a red background stands out considerable distance from the hilt.” Here's the proof. What I was trying to explain to Diplomatt is that there is no way flat emblem can be mounted on Klaas knife. I was remiss by not mentioning my appreciation for the new photos. With especially the closeup of the recess in the grip for the emblem showing the relationship of it to the grip, and why there was a problem. Best Regards, Fred
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Joined: Jun 2007
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I'm not sure that "Factor" knife has been produced in Germany. The quality of the blades is obviously different. Blade "Factor" has poor quality and shallow master’s mark. My supposition is that “Factor” company ordered handles and sheaths from Germani, produced the blade and assembled the knives in Bulgaria............ That may very well be the case for the blades, but in my searching I've also seen different quality etches, and finishes with some otherwise new or near new looking blades. So it makes me wonder why? And some of especially the earlier postwar imported to the U.S. blades made in Germany were of poor quality in not just the finishing which varied. But also the quality of the steel which was sometimes lacking. So that is something else that could be looked into. BTW: Some of the TR era political daggers were nicely made, but of a very uneven often poor quality steel (by U.S. standards). Best Regards, Fred Bulgaria in this period had industrial capacity and had his own production of swords,dirks,daggers,medals, decorations i.t. All of dirks are Bulgarian production.
Last edited by pesho; 01/30/2013 12:31 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Bulgarian offensive sword made by Kerestedjiev one of the biggest producer of swords and daggers. Unfortunately the sword has poor quality in comparison with the German made hilts.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Original Faktor and Klaas knives have different profile slots emblems. Klass has a small bulge, which prevents the flat emblem to be mounted properly and to reach the bottom.
Last edited by pesho; 01/30/2013 12:38 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Joined: Jun 2007
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The original emblem should has such profile and than “B” will stands out considerable distance from the hilt
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Once again, my thanks for the pictures and explanations. And I stand corrected - as I was assuming that what was seen with manufacturing small arms as being outsourced, had more of a correlation to capabilities with dress weapons. With the background as I understood it as follows:
Originally using early contracted Mannlichers in 8x50R, and bayonets made in Austria and Hungary (with some small numbers of an earlier type that was made in Bulgaria). I believe that it was in 1934 that Bulgaria adopted the M30 8x56R (Austrian) cartridge and began making the ammunition (domestically and CZ). And it was at German direction that Austria sent quantities of its Mannlicher rifles and carbines to Bulgaria completing the transfer I believe circa 1940. With some later weapons from Germany itself during the war, and earlier surplus Mannlichers from various European sources etc. etc. But I can see that dress weapons of Bulgarian origin have been made, although they are outside my own areas of special interest. And if I understand it correctly for the “Factor” knives. The handle and scabbard assemblies would have come from Germany (but not later than early 1942). With the blades made to German specifications (?) so they would fit the scabbard assemblies correctly. And were they also supplied tooling earlier by Germany so that they could replicate the HJ blades and type of finish? Which may not be answerable as the company no longer exists - but perhaps the German machinery/tooling is still being used by somebody else? Which is where some of my other interests are. Being the more technical aspects of how period items were manufactured. With Best Regards, Fred
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Unfortunately there is not much information on this subject. By 1918 all the swords and dirks are German or Russian production, but after 1925 Bulgaria began manufacturing 2nd model Naval dirk and 1st model Police dagger.Naval dirk has been made from discarded blades Lebel. For Police dagger have been ordered from Germany pomels,handles and crossguards from German fire dagger and scabbard and blade are made from discarded or captured Gras bayonets. In 1936 Bulgaria ordered from Germany Army / Klaas/, Airforce /Eickhorn/ and Labor /Puma/ daggers. Later most probably due to iconomical reasons Bulgaria started to import from Germany only some parts - mainly engraved blades and scabbards, while others parts are produced in Bulgaria. The manufacture of swords, dirks and knives stopped in 1944 I do not know whether they are imported machines from Germany and will never understand. From 1948-50, the Communist government nationalized everything - houses, cars, shops, land, factories. Therefore “Factor” and thousands of other factories cease to exist.
Last edited by pesho; 01/30/2013 09:56 PM.
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Hi Pesho, Thanks for the very interesting info on these Brannik knifes, you have answered some unknown questions about these knifes, i appreciate your info & photos on this subject Best Regards Mac 66.
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