UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Strange NSKK Dagger

I got sent these images, and wonder if anybody knows anything about them? The dagger looks a bit weird, but I will reserve comment until others have a look.

More pics.

Final pics. Apparently some sort of NSKK Prototype Dagger?

The regular SA/NSKK prototypes are the ones with the early "A" motto and the pointy wing eagle.

A prototype leader dagger? Possibly .... but it does not seem that well made for something that was used to impress the higher-ups who signed the purchase order. No image on the rear of the pommel cap.

The crossguard seems to resemble either that leader dagger seen in some older books or maybe the RLB daggers. From the limited pictures, it could be most anything.

Dave

Pommel and crossguard almost resemble dug pieces! Maybe a prototype and they used sand casting?

I have held this one in hand a can tell you its right,what it is exactly i dont know nskk of some sort, but it feels right to me. thats all i will say about it.

The grips on these NSKK prototype pieces are beautiful, like the ultimate SLANT grip! Hope we can see some more pics of the front of the guard... Kevin.

How did we get from 'what is it' to 'NSKK prototype dagger' in 8 posts?

How does holding it in your hand make it right ?

I'd like to know the answer to both questions too. To me, the dagger seems rather crude and unfinished, even if it's real. The statement "it seems right" has never really been an acceptable defense here at GDC, and I look forward to learning more about this piece.

Has there not been several nskk "prototype" daggers popping up over the years ??? all looking different from each other.
even for a prototype ,the quality is less than one would see.

"o.k. boss ! , this what you wanted ?"
the logo would state it to be the early one (found in the sleeve diamonds).
Now might be a prototype rendering (very first stage) for a design for the yearly dagger compaction. or a designer's apprentice "class project".
got my doubts. jeff

Jeff: I would tend to agree. Even if it's real, it does seem like a "class project" of some sort. Why did they not complete the back side of the pommel? I can't recall a dagger that has a "one sided" pommel design.

The dagger is not a trade school class project and is absolutely and for sure 100% real!

ITS MOSTLY CORROSION THAT LETS IT DOWN,THATS WHATS TAKEN AWAY THE DEFINITION OF THE POMMEL

… Yeah, especially from the reverse side!!

LOL at Johnny

I get the feeling that someone is playing games here.

If you know what it is or have better pictures, post it.

Dave

Maybe I spoke to quick calling this dagger a "prototype" but we have all seen the other NSKK piece that was supposed to have been bought for a song by one of the Dagger "Guru's" and had this same deep orange to red extremely slanted grip!? Wouldn't think these grips were available just anywhere?? Kevin.

I would agree with Dave ... if anybody has more photos, I would like too see them. We do know that Johnson has had many leftover grips of various types over the years, and nobody's saying this is one of them. I'd just like to see more discussion on this piece. Why it has no motif on the back of the pommel, and why, if corrosion is to blame for the lack of detail, is the blade and scabbard so nice, not to mention the degree of finish? I personally believe this one has a chance, but would love to see more photos.

That is a keen observation Kevin. The one you speak of was a very similar. It sported a silver finish and had a pommel similar to a 2nd luft but was different. This example is even rarer as it the NSKK marine leader example to the silver one with just a different pommel and the light coppery plated finish as seen on chained marine NSKK daggers. It should be made by Eickhorn.

-Serge-

WAIT WAIT WAIT...

Quote from Craig: " Why, if corrosion is to blame for the lack of detail, is the blade and scabbard so nice, not to mention the degree of finish? I personally believe this one has a chance, but would love to see more photos."

The scabbard is nowhere in the pictures, and the blade, just barely, but not enough to claim that it is "nice"…

Craig, if you do not have additional pictures of the dagger, how do you know that the blade and scabbard are "so nice"???
Otherwise you must have the dagger and can then provide photos... in any case.

???

The prototypes I was speaking of , looked like items straight from the factory ,quality materials , superb finish, out standing looking dagger.
some thing you knew was not made in a garage or basement.
some of the designs actually looked better than the daggers that were chose. not like the one shown.
remember ,any prototype would be excellent quality, since the customer would give a thumbs up or down.
we have "all "seen the early / prototype S.A.s! & we all can see the changes that were made for the production model.
most of the dagger proposed designs were on paper only.
honestly don't know what this is.

Someone, who can remain anonymous for the moment, was kind enough to send me two pictures. Not great focus, but enough to shed a little more light.

I forgot to add that the blade had the Eickhorn 35-41 maker's mark.

Dave

No intriguing, mysterious or sneaky stories and no blood remnants
to confirm by DNA. Also no audio or video tapes or sworn,
certified statements or any finger prints by deceased persons
however as I said, 100% original.

From a highly respected, very ethical and
well informed individual.

DA DA DA DUUUMM.... bluuurry pics.

Woops, posting this while the last better pics were being posted!

Any history behind this pieces aquisition?

Very interesting and appealing piece that looks great at a distance. Lets look closer....

I took them pics on my mobile phone at a fair, whilst it was being examined by a couple of leading authoritys.

No, It's not mine (i wish...), nor did i send the pics to Dave.

But its a real nice dagger with no hidden agendas.

Well done to the owner for obtaining this piece of history.

Mark

I actually do have 2 more pictures, that I thought I'd posted; my apologies. I am at home now with house guests, but will try to find them in my email and post them when I get back to work on Monday. John: The dagger lacks any of the detail that your beautiful SS Prototype had, and wonder why it's so. I personally agree with you ... my instinct is that it's original, but I would never make a more firm pronouncement like that unless I had the piece in hand, or had purchased it myself from a vet.

Craig,

Seriously, I'm mystified at the lack of conversation on this piece.

Anyway, despite the fact that it's poorly made, I think the dagger is most likely real.

Ok I will throw my hat into the ring,,,As I was looking at the first page of photos,, for me its hard to imagine a 1 sided dagger! Most daggers if not all that I have seen have some kind of reverse detail which this prototype lacks any! Kinda boring to look at the reverse side of it. I am not saying its not real but just really lacking from behind. Most prototype daggers have a little more "Pizazz" then this one. Ok,, now i am waiting for bruises regards Larry

I find the lack of detail to the reverse pommel quite odd as well. All pommels with logos that I can think of (Luftwaffe, NSFK, Teno, Feldhernhalle, Bird's Head) have motifs on both sides. Cross-guards are often "one sided" as this one is.

I will give my 2 cents also.

I saw this or similar dagger before, I believe at the SOS or MAX, and what I noticed then was how small the swastika is on the pommel, and it looks also like it's not centered.

The blackening on the scabbard is not pre 45 IMHO, it looks like the paint they use to hump up the Teno's, it would be a good specimn for me to check with my XRF machine to see wich components it has.

It was said that the lack of quality of the pommel is because of corrosion, but that would also effect the paint thats on it, and it did not.

The grip used on this one closely resembles, or is the same, as the grips that were floating around some years back, and I believe that there was on big dealer that had a couple.

And then the biggest mistery; why does it only have one side? Who would wear a dagger that only has one side to show? And have such crude finish?
I think that IF this is pre-45, it most likely was a display piece of some kind, maybe in the Eickhorn window or somewhere.

Just thinking out loud.

Quiet all of sudden.

But, perhaps not surprising as few people, myself included, can guess what it is. The 'almost focused' pictures are frustrating and what can be seen poses questions:

- Why such a small swaz?
- How could the swaz be rusted but the scabbard not touched?
- That scabbard looks familiar but perhaps painted
- Is that a larger NSKK emblem super-glued to a crossguard? Or something else?
- Why the blank reverse pommel?

Then, John Pepera post a very positive endorsement, but does not follow through with proof

Prototypes are hand-made, but they are well finished with complete details. Sometimes better than the actual production models. This is because they are made to impress the leaders who will sign the order. The NSKK may not have been the SS, but that dagger would not have been very impressive to the leaders.

"I get the feeling that someone is playing games here.
If you know what it is or have better pictures, post it"
Dave

"I actually do have 2 more pictures, that I thought I'd posted"
Craig Gottlieb


Dave, who were you referring to?

Is it me or has this thread from the beginning been a little vague? We are now into a 4th page on this thread with no results. So lets the rest of these pics already. We have gotten more pics from new members asking if "Is it real?" than 4 pgs of nothing!! Who is it really..that we are waiting for to chime in on an opinion of this dagger?

I agree, Siegfried; will someone please step in and provide more info on this piece? I still will find my additional photos and post them (sorry, but my mom has been in town, and we just finished a BATF and CA DOJ inspection of my business (I'm an FFL). Anyway ... I think Rob's comment that if real, it probably was a "shop display" makes a lot of sense - it's the only reason I can think to explain the strange "one sided" pommel. The swastika IS off center and small - never really thought of that. Dave is also right ... even prototypes have a LOT better detail than this piece. John Pepera's Alcoso Prototype was a perfect example of the quality that manufacturers put into a prototype or special order. Sure, they weren't perfect, but this piece is FAR from perfect.

Lots of questions, with a lot of silence.

I Just want to know the price & which dealer is selling it ?

I still do not believe it's pre 45 (been wrong before). but the additional photos were nice to see, but now every one has more questions.

It's not me, and I don't know who is selling it. And to clarify my position; I don't say it's pre-45 or post-45: it could be either. Despite the numerous red flags above, it could be real, or it could also be a fantasy piece made up from a Teno Dagger by a creative person. I would really like to see this piece discussed in great detail.

John,

you said "The dagger is not a trade school class project and is absolutely and for sure 100% real!". I was hoping that you might know something we do not.

Craig,

We need to see detail to discuss it in detail

Dave