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AndyB #233654 11/26/2010 02:58 PM
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Andy,

I can post some pictures of the Elite Diament. I have the Plant shutdown for the Holiday but If I can get someone to take pictures, I will or else you have to wait till I get back to work. The Lazy S is metal stamped as best as I can tell from under a magnifying glass.

Richard K

AndyB #233655 11/26/2010 03:11 PM
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Andy,

In regards to the engraving of the SS Property stamp and accountability numbers on the SS 98/05 Bayonets and early WW1 SSVT bayonets, there are differences in sizes due to the operator going too deep with the tool, not going deep enough, and or dull that will push the meyal instead of cutting it.
What I just mentioned, pertains to the size of the geometry. The geometry is consistent.

Andy, there are definitely different styles of SS Property skulls. You can see this quite readily on the SS rifles. There has to be some significance to the different style of skulls. Please see Angolia's Cloth Insignia of the SS: pages 189 to 195. Some of these Collar Tab TKs show up on property marks.

Richard K

AndyB #233656 11/26/2010 03:17 PM
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Andy,

I never mentioned a 9 TK on the bayonet itself. You are mistaken. The designations for the SS TV are very simple to locate and understand once you understand their coding. The SS TV Standarte marks are very consistent except for a few of the Standarts who chose different locations.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233657 11/26/2010 03:36 PM
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Andy,

Thank you for your opinion on my SS Pistol. I do not agree with your opinion because I have seen too many SS Pistols done this same way. The most beautiful done are the series of captured Czech Pistols. They are reworked, nitro proofed,Property stamped / engraved, polished, and high blued.They come in a TK marked holster. They readily exist and are highly sought after by SS Weapons Collectors. In addition they are very expensive.

Also, the Death Runes is also a variant property mark for SS Lugers. I have never seen an accountability # on a luger. The majority of the original SS Lugers will be either Nitro proofed or E/N proofed.

Also, my SS Pistol was purchased by me in 1963 along with the SS Belt & Buckle that it came with for $45.00 from Mr John Laidacker from Shickshinny, PA. He ran an antique / pawn shop. His father was the noted Laidacker of the Kentucky Rifle Collection and publications.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233658 11/26/2010 04:02 PM
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Andy,

The series letter on the SS Elite Diamant is b.

Richard K

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Thanks for details of Elite piece, You are kindly to post the pictures when You are back in work, isnt hurry.
As You mentioned the Commerzial proofed Lugers, so should be same on bayonets, SS obtained bayonets prior 1941 through commerzial buying, its confirmed in various books.I believe there is enough archive materials about.
So the pieces that are prewar and WaA proofed have no link with SS, there could be only reworked in war, but this was done in army repair works not by SS armorers. After 1941/2 was material for W-SS obtained through Army so not need to reproof. Only other branches of SS Algemeine , Police and maybe TKV used the commerzial sales further.
"2. ACS With Scales Logo, SN 9124 on the Rear Crossguard, SS Property Stamp, and Marked: 9th SS TK Standarte (NORD then Thule), Police Star on Spine with letter L. " -i dont know about the not marking of 9TK but here is Your description so i assume the 9TK is on the crossguard

Last edited by AndyB; 11/26/2010 04:24 PM.
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Andy,

I also collect SS Helmets and would like to make a point about the SS RZM helmet. The majority of the SS RZM helmets contain an inkstamp on the inner pillow of the liner. The one that I just pulled reads 1/SS2 over 1935. Property Stamp for SS GERMANIA.
I pulled my 1st Pattern SS/VT Helmet and it has a property stamp of 111/SS1 for SS Deutshland.

I just looked at my SS Ammo Pouches and they are all SS Property Stamped. SS VT; SS TV; Waffen SS.

All of my 15 SS Combat Belts are SS Property Stamped. SS VT; SS TV; Waffen SS.

If they property stamped all of the above items, why would they not property stamp Bayonets & Frogs????


Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233661 11/26/2010 04:36 PM
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Andy,

The Elite Dianmant is not TV marked on the Crossguard. The TV mark on the Bayonet does not contain a TK.

Richard K

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Andy,

I have 2 SS Lugers here on my desk. It is my opinion that the SS VT & TV Lugers were reworked in the SS Weapons' Work Camp. When necessary barrels were replaced, feed springs in the clips and the sear. The guns were proofed and in most cases I do not think that they were even blued. It is quite common to have a Death Head Luger with mismatched parts. Condemed Lugers were probably parted out. I have seen several lugers where hardly any parts matched.

Then I have seen SS Lugers that were late war issue "not junked WW1 guns" that were in excellent + condition. These guns are extremely rare and have a premium value.

Richard K

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I am not expert on firearms so i couldnt give any opinions on this area, same as i am not experts on uniform details, but leather is much easier to stamp as metall, same as many of the leather items were not stamped with die only ink stamped. I believe too that there exist some of the SS stamped frogs. I have only offered my opinion on bayonets, mainly to SG84/98 and Vz.24 because i collect these items for 25 years. best regards,Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/26/2010 05:15 PM.
AndyB #233666 11/26/2010 05:41 PM
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Andy,

Do you know what the "6" stands for on the ricasso, under the serial number of the police bayonet in Wheeler's book on page 160. It is the third bayonet from the top?


Richard K

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I know what You mean, the bayonet is police and commerzial contract the additional 6 stamp could be stamped in work, same as by unit or postwar.Hard to explain is a exception more.

AndyB #233675 11/26/2010 09:16 PM
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Richard (and Andy),

I’ve looked at the pictures for the Paul Weyersberg. With a “6” on the crossguard, and another “6” underneath the “6915” serial number on the other side of a muzzle ring marked commercial Police bayonet. Just offhand, I don’t know why it would have those two markings like that. But I can say that Weyersberg in particular, in that general time frame did some unusual things. Commercial Police bayonets (no WaA) marked in the military fashion with dates. Military bayonets with “quotes” and underlining. And of course the “Tr serial number” marked bayonets. So (to me) I’m not sure that it has any special significance, and I'm also not sure just when it was applied.

I also looked over the comments this morning, and can offer the observation that the various Navy marked items are reasonably consistent. Whereas I can’t say the same (IMO) for the bayonet markings that were posted. And the proof of the matter might be in bayonets we haven’t seen yet. But I’m leaning towards Andy’s view.

And for the SS ZZA bayonets we haven’t seen them yet, so I think that the “jury has to be out” until we have something more to work with.

As for when the Waffen SS actually started receiving arms from the Army/Wehrmacht, I looked into it a while back. And don’t remember the particulars. But my immediate recollection is that the SS started receiving arms in the period after the fall of France, but before Operation Barbarossa.

And here is the picture I remembered of the bayonet knot.

Regards to All, FP

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And another showing SS troops in combat in Karelia. Which roughly dates the picture, and shows unmodified Czech Vz. 24’s in the field. FP

SS-in-Karelia-3.jpg (72.74 KB, 190 downloads)
SS-in-Karelia-closeup-1.jpg (19.55 KB, 190 downloads)
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Thanks FP nice picture, i believe the wounded soldier has the Vz.24 too.

AndyB #233678 11/26/2010 11:01 PM
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Thank you Andy, and here is another one of the Vz. 24 that has not been modified. With the caption citing troops from the Polizei Divison. FP

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Polizei Divison closeup.jpg (57.31 KB, 172 downloads)
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FP,

After seeing Andy's fake SS ZZ A2 - 84/98, I can only send pictures to individuals who will not post them. The fake is too close. Why give the faker needed corrections.

What do you mean that you are leaning toward Andy's thinking on engraving. Please explain. I have over 30 98/05 SS bayonets and one with capture papers #29. I also have the box that this item was sent home in.

Mike Welser was the first to publish the SS 98/05 bayonet in his book. The geometry is the same for 90 % of these marked bayonets.

Why haven't you commented on the bayonet with capture papers?

Having any luck finding more reproduction bayonets for us to look at. We need the kind of stuff Andy put up.

Those were excellent pictures of SS men with VZ-24 rifles & bayonets.
We need to look at an actual VZ-24 rifle and look at the SS proprty marks on it. Can anyone help out?

I am having trouble getting into the GDC site from home. I had to go through my work computer.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233683 11/27/2010 12:57 AM
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FP,

In regards to the Police Bayonet with the 6 below the serial number on the ricasso, this is very similiar to a SS VZ-24 that I just sent you recently. That VZ-24 was a SS TV.


Richard K

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dy,

Why is the cutting edge on the top for a VZ-24 Bayonet?

Richard K

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Richard,

Right now I only have a few minutes to respond. But in reverse order, the Austrian Model 1895 had a reversed blade, and so did the Czech made copies when it became independent after WW I. As did the Model 98/22, Vz. 23, Vz. 24 and Vz. 33. But there are exceptions and some export models did not.

And you are going to have to refresh my memory, as I don’t know which Vz. 24 you are making a reference to, as a comparison with the Police 98K (SG 84/98) in George’s book.

As for the one I’ve seen posted here with the capture papers it did not give me instant ‘heartburn’. But with all of the topics that get started going in different directions, I haven’t really sat down and looked at it closely. And without something to look at as a point of reference for some of these other topics, it can at times be distracting.

As for reproductions/fakes/altered items, I do have some material. But really haven’t had the time to do much with it (see above - no offense intended, just a small joke wink ).

And for the engraving, which as Andy mentioned earlier, has been a topic at other times and places. Right now I just don’t have the time to go into specifics.

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

I agree with you. We are going in a lot of different directions and it is extremely hard to focus on all of the information that has been posted.
Capture Papers are very important to me when it comes to authentication of an item, soldier liberating the item, time, location. Capture papers for SS items are almost non existent. Posting them here did not raise any excitement. SS Weapons's Collectors would give almost anything to have them.

Richard K

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Hello, nice pictures that could be dated with the location and probably by the SS uniform too.
To Richard FP already answered the reason of using of upper edge,firstly as a design that was used by Austrian and czechoslovak got a lot of them after 1918 and other reason is by uning it by fight with upper attack with rifle to a cavalry man, that should be bring more efectivity as a normal position bayonet edge.
When You have a time and interest You could send the SSZZA for opinion to FP or my address, and its remain confidentialy.
The serialing on Vz.24 You probably mean is not from beginn there it means a german rework, as mentioned before the piece in Wheeler book is no rework same as some of Your Vz.24 bayos too. There should be no serialing there normally. Thats why i asked You about serialing of czechoslovak bayonets, they were not serialed only in 1924 first production year.
Like mentioned before capture papers are problematic because of not detailed describing, i already posted the reasons, when there is a detailed marking description thats the other point, but fake a certificate is a easiest way,more easy as make a SS bayonet fake DH stamp.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/27/2010 10:50 AM.
AndyB #233702 11/27/2010 05:15 PM
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Andy,

I shall send pictures of the SS ZZ A2 Bayonet when I get back to work.

Richard K

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Andy,

In regards to Capture Papers are you saying that even if they are original that they prove nothing?
The chances of a 3 digit serial number on a bayonet matching existing numbers on a Capture Paper is quite phenominal.

Richard K

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FORUM MEMBERS,

I pulled a Waffen SS Bayonet this morning to look at. Here iscription:
1. 41 dated
2. ddl Maker
3. Brown plastic Grips
4. Serial #8510
5. Letter: b
6.Matching Scabbard
7. WA 883
Frog is stamped with Manufacturer Name: Wilhelm Ellers & City over 1941 date.

8. Frog is also SS Property stamped and 1941 dated. So this bayonet can not be a battfield pickup or a rework.It is a supply contract item.

9. The Bayonet is also SS Property marked with a metal stamp. Same type found on rifles. On this bayonet you have to tell me what the SS Property Stamp Looks Like and where it is located.

Richard K

10. Bayonet is in excellent + condition.

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Andy,

I stand corrected as per VZ-24 Bayonets being serial numbered. I only looked at a few and they were numbered on the end of he pommel. Majority not Czech serial numbered.


Richard K

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Forum Members,

I pulled out from my collection a SS VT 84/98 Bayonet. Here is the description:

1. S/174G
2. Serial #9734
3. Letter: e
4. Early WA 88
5. Matching Scabbard
6. Frog has shrunk onto scabbard
7. Frog is SS Property Marked
8. Bayonet is SS property Marked. Tell me what type of property mark and where it is located.
9. Tell me about the Accountability #.

Richard K

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Forum Members,

In regards to the SS 98/05, what is the earliest SS date stamp on the Frog and where is it located?

Richard Kuchta

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Forum Members,

In regards to the early SS 98/05 Bayonets,what is unique about the frogs?

Richard K

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Forum Members,

In regards to the early 98/05 Bayonets, what is the color of the frog?

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Forum Members,

In regards to the SS 98/05 Bayonets, what is the highest serial number that has been recorded for a SS VT Bayonet?

Richard Kuchta

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Forum Members,

In regards to the SS VT 98/05 Bayonet, what is the style of Property Mark referred to?


Richard K

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Forum Members,

In regards to the SS VT 98/05 Bayonet, the property mark is identical to the mark used on what SS Rifle accessory?


Richard K

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Forum Members,


In regards to the SS 98/05 Bayonet, what does the term double stamp refer to?

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Here are other problematic pieces as mentioned before the SS property stamp should be not stamped on WaA proofed bayonets as they were army contracts.
-41ddl is a normal contract, serialed and proofed by WaA, i dont know what is there stamped as its not a rework it should be nothing there, no SS or DH
-S/174G, in e range should have a wood grips, as there is a early army proof its same as previous, frog has any stamps? maker or dating? Its a 1935 production, so no way that it went to SS early prewar period. As they used commerzial contracts.
-Vz.24 marked on pommel are not serialed but this are unit marks, has nothing to do with serial numbers, this was the reason why i answered some years ago that this number couldnt be a assembly number of the grips.
-i believe You should make home a dbase of Your SS items, to firstly have a source where it came from, from what a collector or country, exact described before it could be lost the info, because these are important information
- other point it should be exact observed for variation of DH stamps, and SS numbers, why are there stamped or engraved on crossguard and why on pommels, because SS worked in exact timelines
-to the 9. "The Bayonet is also SS Property marked with a metal stamp. Same type found on rifles." thats the point that we could not have a same opinion,You know about rifles with DH, but they are in majority a short time period reworks and You believe that the stamp were used on bayonets post 1934(WuK) to late war COF43, all the time of the 3R. This is the problem. I believe there dont exist rifles post 1939 so marked. You should go to Gunboard forum, as there are experts on rifles. And compare the stamps with rifles picture there.Because the rifles are the key to bayonets. Bayonets were used primarily with rifles. to sample the KZL rifles K98k made by bnz or other firms by labor workers and in reality property of SS, were only single rune stamped on reciever and have no DH or SS in circle or any acountability numbers. So it looks like the most stamps DH and SS are already on bayonets?


Last edited by AndyB; 11/27/2010 07:48 PM.
AndyB #233730 11/27/2010 08:19 PM
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Here a nice commerzial WKC late war piece found on attic, with small rust on pommel, the finish under frog was gone as there too long on the scabbard. These is a real NS party organisation contract, with high possibility a SS piece. The frog is stamped with J.de Valk/Adam 1942. So probably added older frog on a new bayonet on last months of war. The serial number on blade was probably removed.No any WaA there.

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Last edited by AndyB; 11/27/2010 08:20 PM.
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Forum Members,

In regards to the SS VT 98/05 Bayonet, what is the lowest accountability number documented?


Richard K

AndyB #233736 11/27/2010 09:20 PM
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Andy,

In regards to your statement about the 41 ddl, what documentation do you have to back up your opinion? Show me something please?

AndyB #233739 11/27/2010 09:26 PM
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Andy,

Saying that the bayonet that you posted is a possible SS bayonet is stretching it some.


This is like looking at a SS M-42 single decal helmet and comparing it to a M-42 with no decals. We all know that the SS wore M-42 helmets with no decals but your bayonet with out property marking is just a unmarked bayonet.

AndyB #233740 11/27/2010 09:31 PM
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Andy,

The S174G has wood grips. Does the WA number check out?

You are again making opinions that are not backed up by fact / documentation.

Do you know when the SS put their property stamp on the bayonet?

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