UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK High Leader

While I was more focused on the manufacturing details, I also wondered about the “Musterschutz” issue myself a time or two. Any clarification is certainly welcome.

At a temporary impasse while trying to find period non tarnishing silver alloys - I looked at the center mount from a different perspective. Nickel silver itself is a form of imitation silver that does not contain silver. Looking at imitation silver I found alloys that used silver as part of their composition ranging from 2% to as high as 30% silver.

I also had hoped for another example to look at in trying to try and determine what alloys had been used to manufacture the scabbard components. Using the pictures already posted with that information I took a (digitally) closer look to see if I was missing something? Then it occurred to me......................

Why not just electroplate the non matching nickel silver (or whatever alloy was used) to achieve a uniform appearance?? Eickhorn was certainly no stranger to the electroplating of metals! And it would have been a very inexpensive way to solve the problem of any possible shortage of silver itself (if that was in fact a problem).

So aside from some of the other issues: What are the odds of problems with etching - inferior metal castings from a subcontractor - mixed alloy and types of parts - and the apparent lack of the ability to electroplate - all happening together at the same time?? From a first tier manufacturer like the Carl Eickhorn company in the late 1930’s with a single item like a high end “Honor” dagger?

PS: I don’t have a problem with the idea of a variant NSKK dagger existing. But at least one fake NSKK presentation dagger was made 50 years ago. And it’s even worse now, as they are making additional counterfeit versions of fakes from the 1960’s or 70’s. And there were a ton of fakes/altered items of all types that were made in the 1960’s and 1970’s. So I think that a certain amount of caution is prudent - especially if you were not the one who personally opened the trunk and removed a dagger which has been untouched in the attic since 1945. FP

Just when you thought it was safe too get back on the forum.Wittmann has a NSKK High Leader for sale in his special offering section.

Thank You Zorro!!!!

For the dagger for sale information that was posted. Along with some good pictures, and a description, which for me helps put some of the remaining questions to rest. And from someone who is very well known to the collecting world that has not been involved in the discussion.

The leather on the scabbard is acknowledged to have probably been replaced. Which seems to have a similar appearance with possibly a couple of the already posted daggers, but cannot be confirmed without a closer look.

The center mount is stated to have some silvering. But it can’t really be determined from the image if it is actually electroplating, or one of the “silvering” solutions in a bottle sold by craft stores (not unlike cold blue for guns). Or it could be an oxidization surface layer that was removed?

The chain links themselves are nickel silver and show no signs of ever having been electroplated silver. And the connector clip is nickel plated steel. (During the Third Reich both metals were electroplated by Solingen makers.)

And the etching which is a little different from all of the others posted - has traces of either gold or gold paint (?) in the etching which seems to be something new.

Had this been posted earlier it would I think have cut short a lot of the earlier discussion where specific information was lacking.

Serendipity: The finding of something interesting when you are not looking for it. FP

I don't quite understand all the discussion/fixation on the center scabbard fitting? In hopes of promoting further discussion I would like to bring up the following points:

- I believe there is documented paper evidence that the NSKK should go to black scabbards in 1936. It should then follow that the black leather covered scabbards would be 1936 or later.
- Could the center scabbard fitting have been burnished or black coated and some of this is what looks like tarnish now?
- Many acknowledged period ss and sa daggers have a mixture of ni-sil fittings and plated fittings on them around 1936. Why is the different metal type on the Hunlien center scabbard fitting a big deal?
- Common wisdom (but no evidence) is that the standard chained NSKK officer "factory made" dagger has 4 upper links and 5 lower links. The "field upgrade" chained NSKK officer has 3 upper links and 5 lower links. The "field upgrade" center scabbard fitting is also slightly different from the "factory" one. With the low quantity of the 3 upper linked Hunlien presentation daggers, couldn't they have been from a small job made environment? Thus variation.
- There is variation on Luft general degens. There is variaton on ss damast presentation degens. Are they the next subjects to be dragged into a harsh forum questioning.
- The few NSKK presention pieces I have been granted inspection of were for the most part, quality and construction of the period. Where would parts (especially blades) have come from to make 12 parts pieces?
- Lastly there is photo evidence showing NSKK presentation daggers being worn. Where are they of these are not them?

Thank you.

It’s a little more complicated than just a focus on the center mount - although that component does (IMO) have one significantly crucial aspect.

As originally described:
“For those of you not familiar with the dagger, it is a chained damascus piece that is very similar in construction to the SA Honor - with three notable differences:
1) NSKK Honor Daggers have a smooth-grain black leather colored scabbard.
2) NSKK Honor Daggers have two types of chains. Either an 800 silver chain that is unique to these pieces, or a standard-looking NSKK chain. Both chain configurations exhibit a very unique looking center scabbard fitting.
3) The reverse of the NSKK exhibits a stylized signature of Hunlein, the NSKK Korpsfuhrer.”

* Unless it has been dyed or recovered, leather covered scabbards themselves are not really an issue.

* Can the non ferrous alloys mentioned - silver or nickel silver (which is 2/3 copper) be artificially colored black? The answer is yes. (But that is not what happens with nickel silver under normal atmospheric conditions.)

* There are legitimate mixed component (metal types) period items - but the overwhelming majority seen now are postwar. Not every maker did the same thing at the same time. But I think for discussion purposes circa 1937 could be considered a crossover point for the non copper based alloys. Brass, nickel silver, malleable iron, zinc, and steel can all be electroplated in nickel, silver, or gold. As per period catalog information: nickel plating was the cheapest. Silver was cheaper than gold plating, and the most expensive was extra heavy gold plating.

* Much more important IMO than counting chain links would be to look at what the chains (and center mount) are made of. For conventional daggers nickel silver preceded nickel plated steel chain links. Silver, while it has industrial uses, was not a restricted war material like copper and could be early or late. And machinery which can stamp nickel silver can very easily stamp even the hardest silver alloy. Whereas casting is the least preferred method for silver because of problems with the metal rapidly absorbing excess oxygen - unless of course you don’t have access to a set of stamping dies and casting is your only available option.

* “Field upgrades” of conventional daggers is one thing. For a “Field upgrade” of a conventional early period Damascus SA dagger - that was not an Eickhorn factory upgraded dagger - there are a number of additional issues that have to be addressed: 1)The daggers have to be collected. 2) Go to what seems to be an amateur (or less skilled) shop to be etched individually without benefit of a master template. Cast chain links and wide connecters have to be procured from the “Gahr” company. The nickel silver chain links have to be obtained from somebody else - along with the nickel plated steel snap connector. And somebody had to manufacture the nickel silver (?) center mount. And the small contractor would have to been someone without any access to silver plating. Which in that time frame might have cost an “outrageous” 3 RM to have all the added components silver plated. Unless of course the daggers were in two grades ie: “Friends of Adolph Hühnlein” for the nickel silver/plated steel chain fittings. Or the “Really Good Friends” grade in silver.

* That the topic has at times been somewhat less than pleasant in nature goes without saying. But frauds have been perpetrated upon the collecting community at least from the 1950’s. And some information which has been accepted as fact (because it appeared in books on the subject) is now known to have no factual basis - and were “Best Guesses” from early writers and collectors. Now is the time to set the record straight - because in another 20 or 30 years it will be virtually impossible to do so - given the inevitable loss of institutional knowledge.

* There is ‘quality’ and the is “Quality”. These daggers were reported circa 1965? 40 years ago “beater” 98K bayonets began to have fake etching added to enhance value of otherwise unmarketable bayonets. Large numbers of daggers were made from parts and sold in quantity and all sorts of other things happened. While the dagger that started this thread unquestionably (IMO) seems to have been made from parts. That does not mean that otherwise whole lesser condition daggers could not also have been used like the bayonets were. Which seems to be the case where there is a probability of the blade etching being added to an already worn blade. And 40 years ago, before the meteoric rise in prices, all sorts of parts and whole daggers were available for (at the time) fairly reasonable prices.

* The question is not - do they exist? But what do they actually look like? Are they conglomerations of mismatched parts with added signatures? Which signature is the correct one? Do they even have signatures? What were the fittings of the photo ID’d dagger made of - or were they silver plated?

Time will tell. And maybe I’ll see one at the MAX which could help change my mind. But today is not that day. FP

So, what's new??????????????????????


Gailen Lee David

--and today is not the day we will be changing our minds either.

Is T M Johnson correct when he states in Vol III of collecting the Edged Weapons ot the III Reich on page 108 that the first time a photo of it was published was in 1978?.What gives with that if known examples were around since 1965?. Also on page 109 of the same book he shows Dr So and So wearing one.How can anything be conclusive with that picture,looks like a chained NSKK.This has probably been brought up somewhere in the volumes of THE RISE AND FALL OF THE NSKK HIGH LEADER DAGGER. by Wally Web.

OK I HATE to reopen this thread but Now since the Max is now History did anyone lay eyes on the piece or Pieces in question and did any Fisticuffs Breakout or Did everyone behave.

ALLES FUR NICHT !

Why won't anybody kick this lying dog?

KICK...KICK....KICK... : )

Tom it looks like you and I are the only people who were really interested it that "THING".

Yes Zorro...its turned into a 2 Man Topic : )

Not a two man topic, gents, just two guys tying to get a fight going again

Dave