UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK High Leader

Bella Luna!! Moon,, Luna,,Silver,,no wonder the Werewolf howled at it!!

Went away for a couple weeks,,glad to see this is still going strong at over 11 thousand hits!

For those interested here is the law regarding the stamps to be used. After Hitler came into power this law was ignored for the most part and pieces were not being stamped 'Halbmond und Krone.'. Many makers continued to do so but from I've learned it was not mandatory..Smaller pieces didn't even have to be maker or content marked during the 3rd Reich period.

I don't understand the challenge for a member to prove something is fake! The burden of proof should be to the presenter of the piece to show/prove its authentic when questioned.
Why is the maker marking so worn to the point that some letters are almost obliterated/unrecognizable. It is because they are cast in,,and done poorly..
And it is correct that the piece should not have the marks cast in,,but stamped in.
The 'Halbmond und Krone' markings do not look like Gahrs. Nor does the crown resemble anything even close to other German crowns used by other makers.. . For whatever the reason the markings do not seem to be correct..

Yes Gaspare. You don't need to be in the Hobby a half century to see that the markings on this particular "connecting bridge" is/are contrary to all that one would accept to see on an "authentic period produced silver item".
And yes, it appears that the marks are a part of the cast piece.
And I agree it is up to the presenter to show/prove that the item is authentic when questioned. We are not talking about NSKK High Leader daggers but about the authenticity of this "Gahr" bridge mount. All those who think that a cast silver piece with "built in" Hallmark is correct....well I don't know what else to say except that Christoper Alisby has given his expert opinion on this item along with Mr. Stephens And I look forward to the updated edition of Reproduction? Recognition!

-wagner-

Thank you, Gaspare, for your Reichs Gesetzblatt image of positive and enlightening documentation.

Of course there will be other viewers to this thread who will insist that 3rd-hand stories of items "out of the woodwork from veterans" take precedence over documented fact - so I guess that you cannot "teach an old dog new tricks".

However, I am always willing to learn. Thank you once again for presenting this valued documentation to this thread. It is refreshing!

FJS

FOR THOSE ATTENDING THE MAX SHOW: Frederick J. Stephens will be on the MAX Seminar Program. So bring your questions and be prepared for an enlightening session at the MAX. Maybe we can bring this topic up for discussion in the Q & A portion of the program.
Ron Weinand
MAX Seminar Coordinator

While I would imagine that the Q & A session will be informative. Without some examples of the dagger to look at - such a discussion would not be nearly as beneficial as it could be when it gets down to illustrating some of the details. An invitation was extended to Rob NL to bring his blades to the MAX. Perhaps that could be extended to anyone who would like to bring a Hühnlein dagger to the show. The more specimens that are available the better the end result will be. Especially the senior collectors I think could be very helpful in tracking down some of the "out of the woodwork" examples mentioned. To see if they are different in any way for example from the one that Craig posted. FP

Frogprinz: I would say to you: "Be there or Be Square".

Well, I was supposed to take my flight back on saturday morning, however I may just extend my stay till saturday night and attend the seminar.

As there will be no AUCTION on Friday nite, we are planning to move the seminars to Friday nite.
Ron Weinand
MAX Seminar Coordinator

Ron, It should be easy to pick me out from the crowd. I’ll be the guy with the 10 X stereoscopic viewer on my head, and the bottle of Schwerter’s solution in my backpack Regards, FP

quote:

An invitation was extended to Rob NL to bring his blades to the MAX. Perhaps that could be extended to anyone who would like to bring a Hühnlein dagger to the show

No offense , but would you really think that somebody would bring their Huhnlein-dagger to let it get "authenticated " there ?
I have had plenty of personal messages that were supporting , invitations to other forums, BUT also comments that those people were never going to post their " non textbook" daggers or swords here , those etched blades I am talking about.Can you blame them ? I cant .
Even if the daggers that were discussed here would prove beyond a doubt that nothing is wrong with them , they will still have people doubting them .And this will make them harder to sell if the owner wishes to.
For me , if I ever post a dagger here again , it will be a totally textbook piece , and not the rare ones .
Believe me , I feel sorry that it is like this now , but I learned the hard way.
And trust me , I really had a hard time the last 4 weeks , after I got some high end "non textbook " daggers , not posting them here .
To bad , because I like to share my pasion with other Dagger Junkies.
Rob.

OK Rob,
If you have had - (your quotation):
----------------------------------------------
I have had plenty of personal messages that were supporting , invitations to other forums, BUT also comments that those people were never going to post their " non textbook" daggers or swords here , those etched blades I am talking about.Can you blame them ? I cant .
----------------------------------------------

OK Rob. Why don't you put those quotations up on site, and also the names of the people who made them? We - who challenge such things - have to take the opprobrium of people who claim that we are wrong, but yet they have never yet actually had to prove that they are right. We would like to see just exactly who those people are. If you can make this public comment - then why cannot you make this public commitment available for inspection?

The door swings both ways - Are us who so vociferously challenge such things completely in the wrong? Or do those who hide behind the veil of personal secrecy not have the courage to have their statements examined; and their opinions questioned?

Sorry, Rob, they may state that they are strong and reliable friends - but are they really up to it? How about publishing a few names and identities? Let us see if they are really made of the stuff they claimn to be.
Best regards

FJS

quote:

Originally posted by Rob NL:
I have had plenty of personal messages that were supporting , invitations to other forums,

Maybe you could start a poll to help you decide?

Frederick ,
I think that if they would want that other members saw their replies , they would have simply posted on the thread , rather then send me an personal message.
If they will come forward themselves , then I respect that , but I am not the one to point them out. And I am sure that they are nice people , as most of them here , but I have another image of " strong and reliable friends"

Landser wrote ;

quote:

Maybe you could start a poll to help you decide?

Could you tell me what you mean with that remark?

I have seen too many high calibre members leave, get banned & abstain in protest to take the inference of a threat to leave very seriously. I saw no relevance in your comment but if you feel that way your supporters could do so anonymously.

So your suggestion is that I should start a poll to see if other members here would like me to leave?

I have seen enough of the baiting going on in this thread.

If you care to discuss the pros and cons of daggers, then continue. If you want to get into a fight and flame, bait, and insult others, please do it elsewher.

Dave

Part of being a good friend is the ability to tell another friend when they are wrong. Although I feel that this thread has had some redeeming moments of enlightenment I feel that its original intent was to confront a respected authority who held an unfavourable hypothesis on a very impactual matter and intimidate him in a subtle way with the weight of the "collecting" community. A potentially volatile thread should never have been started without the committed participation of the originator.There is merit to both sides but at the end of the day the only one to convince is yourself. If you need to convince the buyer than we are all in trouble, cheers

Dave:
Wasn't "baiting" the intention of this thread in the first place? As was the intention of most threads by this dealer.
After following this one for the last few weeks, I've decided to not respond to anymore of his posts like this. There's never any resolution or end to them.

Dave,

If I have been out of order in any of this then I will apologise, and restrict my commentary to issues of interest and value to the collecting community.

Rob NL - I have re-read your input regarding people wanting you to show your choice items, and I realise that I misinterpreted what it was you were saying. So I apologise for my misleading answer.

Do not be put off from displaying selected pieces, just because I had a heated debate with some other distinguished members of this community. This site has some fantastic members, and is a brilliant tool for exchanging information. There are guys out there who are true specialists in their own disciplines, whether or not it be markings on Police Bayonets, or variations on Customs Daggers, etc. etc. They are all out there, and the bulk of them will be willing to guide you. So do not lose heart - this is still a place learn from people who know much more.

As for this thread about the NSKK High Leader, well I think I have stated as much as I can - and if my view is unpopular, then so be it. I cannot change my sincerely held view just to become a "nice guy".

So, Jason, and Houston, and Gailen, shall we shake hands - instead of shaking fists?

FJS

Frederick ,
I tought allready that I didnt put in in the right words , no need to apologise.

All I was saying is that if an item is discussed here , and its not textbook , and it gets some negative comments then people will remember those negative comments.
Even if the piece will be considered good in the end , its name will be "damaged" .
That will make it harder to sell , because you would have to justify the piece over and over.
Thats why people dont post their rare pieces .

I didnt say this to be "baiting" , or to start a fight .

I believe that the dealer who started this thread has accomplished his goal,it started out as a discussion on the dagger,then after a while he invited Mr.Stephens to comment,knowing that he would eventually do so,and also knowing that Mr.Stephens held opposing views to him,thus a baiting would begin and it would end up in a farce,well it has.It would seem to me that a leopard can not change his spots,or at least once you have made your bed you have to lie in it,certain people have their opinions on this matter and they will not be moved,educated and respected opinions,to which they are entitled.Let the baiting stop,he achieved his goal,sad but true.
Ivan.

As long as this dealer is allowed to start and continue with this type of "baiting" threads we can expect more of this here.

Grip, We can all see the glass as "half-full" or "half-empty". But in my opinion, this whole thread has "backfired" on the "thread starter". There are certainly a lot more questions regarding the "authenticity" of this dagger and it's components now, than if he just left it alone.
And when the "back" of the "Gahr" mounts were shown...well it was pretty much over when Christopher Ailsby stepped in..Clearly demonstrated his expertise for all to see.
I'm actually glad this thread was brought out since it has proven to be very much a learning and informative one.

-wagner-

i think that if anyone should apologise it should be the dealer who started this thread.he was blatently baiting Mr Stephens.i am just glad it back fired on him and his dagger is now in question.

quote:

Originally posted by wagner:


But in my opinion, this whole thread has "backfired" on the "thread starter". There are certainly a lot more questions regarding the "authenticity" of this dagger and it's components now.
-wagner-

Indeed, that's one dagger type ( if I could afford it of course ) that I would be very weary to own.
I'm not suggesting anything here but from reading this whole thread, one has to worried about where does the facts and truths ends and starts ?
I sincerely hope that we are not just putting all our faith on the "vet story" as our tangible proof for authenticating this dagger, because if it is so..............that's a bit thin for proof.

The "proof" is thin for many daggers but that does not make them fakes. The fact is that almost any dagger can be picked apart.
In the end you have to make up your own mind and choose who to believe. IMO the majority opinion among experienced collectors is usually correct.
Those in the minority have a right to their opinions also-You must choose but IMO you also have a right to know and should know which is which, Majority opinion or Minority opinion.
I'm not mad about this but I hate to see attempts to discredit what most consider true treasures of the hobby.

I have to disagree with Houston here, but that's OK this is a forum.
It is not so simple as the "Majority" vs. the "Minority". The reality is the "Majority" is a lot of times wrong because they are lead to believe something by a very small but powerful "Minority" that something is "fact" when indeed it is not. That very small minority "tells" the "Majority" that this is "So" publishes a book ( for example, and we do have many examples, don't we?) Then the "Majority" thinks it is "Fact" because the small but powerful and vocal "Minority", mostly with many years in the "business" has convinced them that it is so.
When in essense many times, sometimes years later, after objective "Minority" review, the "experts" turn out to have been mistaken.

I for one don't want to trash anyones "treasure". But I do, and will question the "Experts" when they can not provide me a satisfactory answer to a physical "anomoly" on the item they say is "Right".
Saying an item is "period" because "guys have got them for nothing out of the woodwork" Is not the "threshold" of proof that I require. And if that makes me in the "Minority" then all I can say is I'm proud to be there.

-wagner-

...I’d like to emphasize that I’m not questioning anyone’s word, opinion, expertise, theory or argument on this interesting topic and I hope that both sides continue this debate. Please, this isn’t a waste of time and it should matter and does.
Speaking for myself, these types of discussions inspire me to collect and present my collection of stuff to the forum. And I’m proud of the fact that we are very fortunate to have passionate and knowledgeable individuals willing to help us, on both sides of the issue. It can only get better.

...As I stated in my other post, it’s been my understanding for many years now that jewelry and other small wares weren’t required to be stamped with the crescent moon and crown. Some companies did and some didn’t and that’s a well known fact. Another fact, companies changed the way they marked their stuff. I can see that Gahr did it as well. My point is, just because we don’t see a crescent moon and crown on an item is no reason to condemn it or another type of marking system that Gahr might have used without researching it first. Thanks to Gaspare for weighing in on this subject as well.

… I do know that companies sent their stuff to the assayer office first before finishing up an item. From the pictures so it seems, we see Gahr bridge links with the hallmarks in the exact same position. Remember we don’t have these in hand, but this is crucial as has been noted by some of our more knowledgeable collectors. Like FP has noted, we need comparisons brought to the show. I also agree with Gaspare and he is correct, marks are stamped/punched, not cast. But if I may add, it’s a fact that each hallmark is stamped/punched “separately”. So it would be a red flag to see two of the same item with each individually punched hallmarks in the exact same position, impossible really.

….Of course don’t bother with this test if all turn out to be cast. But a simple touchstone or X ray Fluorescence test will confirm silver content. These tests will not harm the items. Test the original if one is present at the show for informational sake.

…“If” these marks are real, they have never been questioned or researched, so it seems until now. Cast from an original, maybe, maybe not. But if these bridge links are in fact cast from an original Gahr piece, than the hallmarks are real. And we can still try and research what they mean. What we do is look at known marks that we can then compare to these unknown marks which brings us to a close approximate in hope that this leads us to their true meaning. I think we are fortunate to have all the marks that we have here to research, because quite often you end up with only a silver content mark.

…Like others have noted, but with the idea of stating these two marks are wrong because of comparing them to known crown and moon marks only, in my opinion can not be justified by that comparison alone, unless it’s so close and obvious. Here it’s obvious that’s what their not and not even close. I hope that makes sense. I believe that “possibly” these two marks, the distinctive stylized (Bavarian?) crown, if you wish and the one/two curved lines within a circle, have absolutely nothing to do with “representing” known moon and crown marks. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong! It’s not uncommon to find manufactures that for various reasons stamped/punched their stuff with other marks. I’m not use to seeing this first hand, but it did in fact happen. Very important is the fact that not all, but some companies utilized their own dating system and stamped their wares accordingly. Some more complicated then others. Designers would also sometimes use their own mark. Something to think about, keep an open mind till we find out more at the show.

I think one would have to possess (excuse the spelling) "Cojones muy grande" to even think of buying one of these type daggers. Nothing kills value more than controversy.

Just my 2 cents

Mark

Frederick: I am certainly all for that. Let it end now and lets all be friends.

Gailen David

OK, Gailen - you are the first in - "under the wire" so to speak. I will still remain to be the most obnoxious ******* you have ever met.........but at least we will still be speaking.

See you at the MAX, and I will buy the first round.

Best regards

FJS

quote:

Originally posted by kingtiger:
"Cojones muy grande"
Just my 2 cents

Mark

Excuse my french but what does this mean ?
Mark, I always love your expression that I can't never understand.

I quite drinking but it will be good to see you.

Gailen David

Wow! Frederick and Gailen. You gentlemen show that we can agree to disagree. But in the end by you actions show that you are truly "Knights who bear no ill will".
God I Love this! What a thread!!
I'll get the second round!

-wagner-

WWWHHHOOOOWWW! GAILEN QUIT DRINKING??? Let me keep this in writing. Must be some mistake.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Now that things have settled down a little - is a list of possible questions or things to think about a reasonable suggestion?

I cannot imagine being in a worse position for anyone, especially as a speaker at the MAX, and getting blind sided with no time to reflect or prepare a suitable response to a question. That applies across the board - because questions sometimes occur to other participants after the opportunity has passed.

So it seems that the net effect of these discussions is actually very beneficial. Because it gives everyone a chance to prepare and be on even footing.

I don’t have the institutional knowledge that senior collectors posses, but do have some small measure of knowledge in other areas, and have some questions that I think might be considered appropriate. I have my own short list of questions. But think that in an open forum such as this one where everyone has their own specialized talents. That others could provide insight that might not occur to co-participants. That everyone attending could benefit from.

PS: Ron, Are you saying that the “new” Gailen and the “old” Gailen are not the same guy? FP

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by kingtiger:
"Cojones muy grande"
Just my 2 cents

Mark


Excuse my french but what does this mean ?
Mark, I always love your expression that I can't never understand.

Pat -

I'm not really sure if your question is sincere or in jest about Mark's comment ........... If you really don't comprehend his comment in Spanish, email me and I'll be happy to translate ...... I really feel you're jesting about it ......

Gordon

Well Gordon,

I honestly had to search on the web in order to get the meaning of the word "cojones".
I was very surprised to read who was the first US official to actually use those words in public.
What a lady, she really had "cojones".


.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cojones

FIRST ROUND?...What Caliber : )

My sole purpose in starting this thread was to bring the discussion of this dagger type out into an open forum where the opinions and ideas of informed individuals (including Fred) could be presented, read and judged by hobbyists. I was not naive - I know Fred Stephens is intelligent and can string together a good argument, and despite his continued assault on my personal character (he even called me a "loser") I maintain that this thread has served a purpose. There are those that turn their noses up at rigorous debate, and call it "distasteful" and such. However, most of the contributors to this thread - including Fred - believe otherwise. Everyone has put forth a valliant effort to make their case. My hope is that people will have the patience to read the entire thread and then form their own conclusions.