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makers mark

Closeup of the pommel. Sorry these pictures are so big.

Obverse blade marking (WKC helmet on reverse)

Anthony,
"Beautiful and rare etched blade"!

hi Denny,
thanks for the comments...i`ve always been pleased with it.i know these are rare but this sword has a `twin` somewhere out there in collectors land.it was shown in Johnsons vol 1.
after much research ive found that my own and the other were presented to two police officers on the same day ,both from the town of Diepholz.both officers had completed 40 years service at the same time.
my task in life....to locate the other and pair them up....some chance !!.

always wanted one with an SS pommel but never found one,yours looks nice.
my grip eagle is copper,which has traces of silver plating to it.

antony

More great police swords!

Joe,

That's what I am talkin' about! Exactly right, and now thanks to your photograph I can say that I have seen a white strap hanger that was dated during the NS Zeit. Here is a photo of the plain black strap hanger that is also correct for the Polizeiunteroffizier-Degen. Of course this same black hanger was also worn on Heer enlisted swords so it is not exclusively a Pol or SS sword hanger like the white ones.

Excellent examples of the mounted sabre for the police as well. The heavy sabre was usually carried attached to the saddle, as you are well aware.

George

Anthony,

Thank you for posting your Weyersburg police officer sword. What is intersting to me is that it has a plated blade. The blade is exactly what I would expect to see on a Weyersburg etched blade on all three sides. A highly detailed custom etching on the obverse with a typical line border around the dedication. A typical Weyersburg laural leaf etch on the spine of the blade. And finally, a typically busy and well executed rococo Weyersburg style etch on the reverse of the blade.

It is also interesting to know that your sword still has traces of the silver plate on the copper grip eagle. Some do and some don't and it keeps eluding me as to why that is. Good luck on your search for the other one to make up a pair. That could happen...

George

Denny,

Thanks for the additional pictures. It certainly does appear that there is more than one maker of these runic pommel nuts. The SS runes stamped on the blade are also an oddity. Why they did this, instead of using the boxed runes usually stamped on the throatpiece and guard, is still unknown to me. I know theories have been discussed ad nausiem but it seems to be a fact that they did use both runic stamps on police swords. No doubt WKC had a reason, but 'tis a mystery to me.

George

You know George, I don't think the saber was usually carried on the saddle as we commonly believe. At least not in the case of the mounted Prussian Schutzpolizei, or the Landjagerei for that matter. At least not from my reading of the Prussian clothing regulations and some pictorial evidence. I have searched for clear shots of mounted police wearing sabers in the few Weimar era books I have. The clearest shot is of a detachment preparing to work near the Reichstag. These men are wearing overcoats and their sabers are hanging from underneath. Other shots in "Polizei greift ein" show the saber on mounted police close under the overcoat.

The clothing regulations indicate that the saber is worn by the mounted police attached to the belt. There were two methods of attachment: the 41cm strap with hook and chain or the pear shaped hanger. The saber pictured in the clothing manual looks more like the Eickhorn Model 189, than the heavy saber shown in the later III Reich weapons manuals. The sword hanger is mentioned in the III Reich manuals only in connection with the description of saddles. Have you found anything more certain?

Joe,

You may very well be correct. I found your photo in "Polizei greift ein" and the others seem to show both methods of carrying the sword. Since most of these troopers are wearing greatcoats it is difficult to tell as you say. The issue sabres were so darn heavy, I would want to get it on my saddle and off my hip when I was mounted. I just can't tell which swords they are carrying.

Here is a shot of the reverse of the heavy sabre that you show. The same "1920" marking on the obverse guard as yours and police markings to the Schutzpolizei Liegnitz on the reverse.

George

Great thread! There seems to be some slight difference in the pommel runes. I believe they were hand cut so this would account for that.
I also wonder about the WKC runic mark. Then there is the RATH mark in the diamond.

Dale:
I too noticed the size difference in the pommel runes even though I managed to post a SS NCO sword in a police sword thread. Mine look smaller however It's partially the picture.However I have no police variants.
Jim

Jim,

You bring up a very good point about the SS NCO sword pommels, even if by accident. I have never seen an SS runic pommel on a Police NCO sword. Why would the rune pommels not be found on Pol NCO swords in the same manner as they are found on Pol Off swords? The SS NCO pommel is a standard part that was readily available and could simply be screwed onto the tang of a Police NCO sword as easily as it could an SS NCO sword. Has anybody seen a Polizei NCO Degen with a rune pommel?

Police NCOs could hold dual membership in the SS in exactly the same manner as Police Officers. They wore SS runes on their tunics in the same manner as officers. If the SS runes in the pommel of the Police Officer sword indicates dual membership, why do we not find runic pommels on Police NCO swords?

George

George:
I for one am at a loss to explain this. You would think at the very least fakers would have done so to enhance the value of police NCO swords. Perhaps someone else well versed in the police will have an idea.
Jim

Joe:
A great photo of the Polizei Mounted horses!
Might you have a pict. of the Left side of Polizei horses that might show the saddle mount for a sword if one exists?
It would seem to me that a saddle mount would make it much easier to withdraw the sword quickly in an emergency.
Jax

George, perhaps the lack of nco runic pommel caps was a function of the demographics of the ranks. The Police Unterfuhrerdegen could be worn by only a small percentage of the total NCOs. I would think these NCOs were older, perhaps more professionally oriented, and thus less inclined to have joined the SS. The younger NCOs who joined the SS could wear the runes on their tunics, but would not have the sword. Even then, as I point out in a coming article for "The Military Advisor" on the awarding of runes to police, finding examples of the runes in wear can be difficult.

On the contrary, police officers tended to be younger when receiving appointments and saw the membership in the SS as the road to promotion. Consequently, they would have chosen the runic pommel caps for their Fuhrerdegens if the SS Fuhrerdegen was not available to them.

Of course, this is only conjecture based on some familiarity with the subject.

Jax, if there would have been a photo of the other side of the horse I would have printed it. I am just as anxious to have the full story. I searched my pictorial references and the photo I found was the clearest available. George would have put up a better one if available. I can only think of one photo of III Reich period of a mounted policeman with a saddle mount. That was in one of the early Johnson volumes and pictured a Fuhrerdegen in a saddle mount. But think about the position of the saddle mount for a Mounted Policeman- at the rear left of the saddle. To reach that saber, the a right handed policeman would have to pivot around at least 90 degrees and reach across his body while still reigning his horse too, or reach back with his left to retrieve it and then exchange it from left to right hand. It might be easier for a left handed policeman, but I have to think the righties were more prevalent.

You can see the benefits of carrying the saber from the left belt. It would hang low below his left hip but still fully accessible by simply reaching across the body. Perhaps the sword mount for the saddle was intended for parade purposes?

WKC SS-POLICE NCO.

From the WKC catalog. It says with SS membership you could get the officer or nco with runic pommel.

Dale:
I think you have a scarce item there. Anyone else have examples to post?
Jim

SS NCO POLICE

I forgot to mention its a Krebs.

Love those SS cap police NCOs.

Dale & Dow,

Thanks for posting your examples of the Pol NCO with SS rune pommels. I have simply not seen one before...very nice! I think Joe hit the nail on the head citing the number of Senior Police NCOs that would have been eligible for this sword. That is probably why they are not seen. I also suspect there would not be much incentive to fake them since a SS NCO sword sells for much more than a Pol NCO, even with a runic pommel.

Great information!

George

Thank Ya'll, for a super thread! The SS-Police NCO degen with rune pommel is very rare and way under valued. I agree with George that there is not much profit in faking them. The cost of a runic pommel would off set the gain.

Dale,

I agree this is a great thread so far. Lots of neat stuff out there in cyberspace. The Weyersberg Police Officer Degen with the etched blade for 40 years of service is particularly beautiful. Especially since I have a weakness for NS Zeit swords with etched blades. And, two examples of the NCO sword with a runic pommel that I had not seen even one example of before. All super stuff!

Well, you guys are keeping your end of the bargain by posting Pol-Degen examples, so here is another example of an early police sword with the D guard and metal grip. This one was made by Clemen und Jung and has a Berlin distributor. This sword is longer than the ones previously shown and has a lightly etched blade.

George

View of the hilt showing the Berlin distributor on the blade. This is an Imperial Mannschafts Säbel worn in a frog, probably by a Police NCO. Also, probably by the Berlin Polizei.

George:
You have been hiding this one, huh?
A stone-cold beaut!
Drat!...now I've got another one to search for.
Really a nice one George.
Thanx.
Jax

Jack,

Here is another similar Imperial Polizei sword with the same style of scabbard but with a P guard instead of a D guard. This one has yellow metal fittings and is for the Gendarmerie.

George

You will notice that the blade is a plain quill-back by Clemen und Jung. Here is a closeup of the hilt showing the sharkskin grip and plain fittings. This is an enlisted style sword with unadorned dove hilt fittings but it does have the re-enforcement block at the junction of the P guard that is usually seen on officer swords.

This Imperial Police sword is an item of issue. View of the Land Gendarmerie property markings on the reverse of the langet and the scabbard throat.

George

George!
You've done it again!
Another Polizei long blade! and one I've never seen before, especially of the Land Gendarmerie.
We need to see more of these blades from your bottomless pit of goodies!
An amazing collection.
Thanx.
Jax

Gents,

I picked up a nice Police Officer Sword by Alcoso this weekend. An un-messed with and grungy sword that cleaned up nicely.

The neat thing about this sword is that is is marked with the Hast & Uhthoff / Dresden distributor marking. I seldom see distributor/dealer/retailer markings on police swords of this type.

The reverse ricasso is stamped with the Alcoso logo in the normal manner. The blade is the normal brushed stainless style and the washer is black.

Overall view of the hilt. There are no SS runes on the guard or scabbard. The tang is P+D marked. The fittings are plated steel.

George

A very interesting sword. I can’t say that I remember seeing distributor markings very often myself. FP

Wasn't the Hermann Rath firm actually a distributor rather than a producer?
Jim

Jim,

I think you may be right. I don't recall that Rath actually manufactured swords and I don't see him listed in Walter's Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen. He may have been an "assembler" rather than a manufacturer but I am not certain. He appears to have been sanctioned since he had the odd SS runes within a diamond stamp on his blades. Good question.

FP,

The Dresden markings are what attracted me to this particular sword. I have an earlier Weimar period Saxon Gemeindepolizei sword with this same distributor marking. Actually, the really neat thing is that the die stamp on both blades is identical. Coupled with the mystique of the bombing of Dresden, I really like this sword.

George

Alcoso and Rath IMO seem to have had an interesting association with the SS and German Police for two different as yet undetermined reasons. In spite of the original owners background - the Coppel firm received large contracts from the German Police for issue items. And the blades with the name of Hermann Rath on them were (as near as I can tell) the result of some kind of prior arrangement because the ‘Kulturzeichen’ appear to have been stamped at the same time that the trademark was put onto the blade. In concept not unlike the factory stamped “Type I” M1936 dagger chain link ‘Kulturzeichen’ markings. FP

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