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yes, some versions were used... light green to umbra brown...

the blue canvas frogs exists with serveral blue thread.

interessting. can you post a better pic, so the colour can be seen clarly. i can not say if its greenblue or darkblue


here is a late DAK frog...out of my collcetion.

these frogs not only been used in afrika... on the hole southern front (Südfront), south russia, itali, balkan etc. canvas was used.
in late war canvas frogs and belts were given to the troops.
the the produktion mabey runns longer.

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when cotton been re-coulord it has differnt varity of coulors...because the original frog had differnt colouers... so the blue is more darker, lighter or owns parts of green. It is difficult.
the originals i know most had the same coulor with only a very little of varity. some parts seems to wash out faster than others.

the next question is... in what way the manufakturer coloured the parts?

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yes...the M42 frog. differnet typs exist. 4 rivtest or with two hollow rifest and 2 other ones.

at the pic it is shown the mixed version.


the m42 often been copyed. a fake one you can recognize on the wrong r.b.Nr., a Stud in the form of a lens(like a ufo) and the wrong hollow rifites.

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backside

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@Kilian... hmmm. it is difficult to find a name of the differnt vareties of frogs.

the differnet offices orderd at the factorys. The Luftwaffe wants browns coulord ones with short line of stitching, the marine wants brown ones... army natural, and the differnt police offices wants differnt things... it was fist a question of money.
you can see...the army always used the "cheaper" ones... police the "luxus" versions. finde made, best leather, coulord...brass/copper rivets etc.

airforce wants painted brown...often with thin lines at the edges.

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i´m searching by my DAK frogs for similaritis with your blue alu stud frog.

i think the original maker is LAGASA Dresden.

because:

1.the strap is a little bit wider than others. the canvas is a little bit differnt. the stiching on the edges is the same as your one.

2. the end of he stitching at the end oft the front part is not very common in this way.
The only producer i know was LAGESA Dresden.

3. the big hole in the front for the frog stud. typical for LAGESA Dresden

4. have a look an the canvas of the front part. is it different to the back of the frog? finer webbing?

here some pics... in my oppinon it is the same material. only the steel stud is differnt.

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but i know this type also exist with alu stud.

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else

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else...

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else....

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It’s basically the same frog except for the pouch webbing. With the other colors I have at least two types of webbing and frogs from the same maker that are different. I think that a lot has to do with what was available. Or why would different colored parts be assembled to various frogs??

Also, I have some well used M42 frogs that came with bayonets that have the “UFO” style button (if we are talking about the same thing??). I’m not saying fakes do not exist or could not be made. But I don’t like to say all of a particular type are fake when we see so many legitimate variations. And some of these frogs have been around a long time and were not high priced items.

PS: There is a German word for it (which I don't remember at the moment). That refers to small (what we call) "cottage" industries. A small private enterprise that makes something. And the LAGESA Dresden that you are referring to (like all of them) was a collective that gathered the products from these small makers to sell to the Wehrmacht. My point being that I think that is enough of a reason by itself to see legitimate variations. Even holster makers, who were usually larger and under the jurisdiction of the Heereswaffenamt inspectors at times had to use substitutes. So why not the small makers? Regards, FP

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A few more images of some tropicals taken with incandescent lighting. First an image showing the front. Note the very similar large hole on the frog at the far left. The pouch also has the close weave fabric which you describe as coming from LAGESA Dresden, although the frog itself does not have legible markings. I think that the frogs show some of their age/wear in the image, although it might be a little more apparent in the next image.

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The rear showing the wear/age I think to a better advantage.

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If this is the “UFO” type frog stud I don’t think that they are fake. This stud is on the late tropical frog to the right. There was not just one source for frog studs (or rivets/washers), but very likely multiple makers of that particular component which was machined.

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Lastly, the two frogs to the left are what we call “breadbag” frogs, appearing to be made from the same material as the Brotbeutel in the same range of colors. Thread colors range from orange, to white, to black. And the leather seems to be from lightweight scrap leather mostly from cows (although the one to the far left is pigskin). Most probably circa 1945 they could have been made in the KZ’s. To the right an R.B. Numbered (circa 1943/later) hollow rivet frog, and to the right of it a conversion of a Czech Vz24 frog to a German style frog. The Czech frog has steel rivets, and washers on the back, but aluminum washers on the pouch front. It also has an aluminum “UFO” type frog stud. Regards, FP

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very interesting thread here, i would add that i have a reworked kvz42 black leather frog with Alu rivets. best regards,Andy

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Good Morning Andy!! Smile

Thanks for the additional input as regards the time parameters with aluminum rivets.

With My Best Regards, FP

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man.. really a variety of frogs, i havent even seen half of these, great thread i do have a couple of dusins of frogs but mostly normal army ones with strap but also a single luftwaffe Smilenever bought a frog by itself, but it seems to be very good collectible area too..

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An excellent discussion of frogs. Smile

There are certainly fake frogs out there but I think we need to keep in mind that there are many, many legitimate and interesting variations as well. I have always kept an open mind concerning frogs since they were in fact often made by small cottage industries makers as well as established leather workers.

I am also particulary fond of reworks such as those shown by FP and Guardist. They sort of prove the point that odd-ball frogs can be correct.

Here is another example of the bread bag frog.

S84-98_unmarked_bread_bag_frog.JPG (24.61 KB, 141 downloads)

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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The LAGO´s or the LAGESA´s are a collective society. Little and bigger firms comming together, like a "firm-Group". The Lagos/Lagesas take care in distribution, sale etc. So the Produkts bear the name of the LAGASA...because the office was the like a agency.
The firms of producing...often rual ones, were to smal to stand the competition on the marked.

The LAGESA/LAGO was there professional representation and bussines agency. The real firms... we don´t know the names.

But the little firms produce himselfs. Maby only Parts...other another fitted together.
This firms produce the belts, too... because the back of a DAK frog and the front part are out of the same material and widness.

The colour changes from maker to maker, maker of the colour, mixture of colour. There were no official standards of the right colour.

in case of the blue one DAK frogs, there was only a little order of Luftwaffe...not a long time production.
Not every firm made parts or colour for these frogs. The parts mainly taken out from normal produktion run...in their sand-blue-tan colour... and have been coloured blue.
I think it was only one order and only one short produktion time.
This is the reason the colours normal have very less differents.
the liitle differnst came from the former colour. Vor example: you have a white, a sand, a green und a dark green t-shir and colourize them with the same colour...the the results are little differnts.

i know the Luftwaffe troops in afrika only get blue webbing in the first time (only one delevery), later only sand coloured webbing.
blue one never had a come back.

LAGASA Dresden trademark also find on Belts.

here now a complete LAGESA Dresden set...with a Aurich belt boucle with green canavas strap.

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The LAGO´s or the LAGESA´s are a collective society. Little and bigger firms comming together, like a "firm-Group". The Lagos/Lagesas take care in distribution, sale etc. So the Produkts bear the name of the LAGASA...because the office was the like a agency.
The firms of producing...often rual ones, were to smal to stand the competition on the marked.

The LAGESA/LAGO was there professional representation and bussines agency. The real firms... we don´t know the names.

But the little firms produce himselfs. Maby only Parts...other another fitted together.
This firms produce the belts, too... because the back of a DAK frog and the front part are out of the same material and widness.

The colour changes from maker to maker, maker of the colour, mixture of colour. There were no official standards of the right colour.

in case of the blue one DAK frogs, there was only a little order of Luftwaffe...not a long time production.
Not every firm made parts or colour for these frogs. The parts mainly taken out from normal produktion run...in their sand-blue-tan colour... and have been coloured blue.
I think it was only one order and only one short produktion time.
This is the reason the colours normal have very less differents.
the liitle differnst came from the former colour. Vor example: you have a white, a sand, a green und a dark green t-shir and colourize them with the same colour...the the results are little differnts.

i know the Luftwaffe troops in afrika only get blue webbing in the first time (only one delevery), later only sand coloured webbing.
blue one never had a come back.

LAGASA Dresden trademark also on Belts.

here now a complete LAGESA Dresden set...with a Aurich belt boucle with green canavas strap.

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you can see... the belt has the same colour than the back of the frog. made out of the same material

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Lagesa frogs who bears the trademark(!!!) considers out of the same parts. putting together like a kitt.

always
- green back

with

1.
- brown-kaki strap with big stiching around the hole. canvas with big eye. canvas pice backside the strap.

with

- front part out of brown-kahki material, big eye canvas


2.
- green strap without stitching. canvas with little eye. leather pice

- front part brown-kaki, little eye canvas.


mayby other one exists without trademark. only mayby

pic of the secound modell:

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Gardist, A very nice rig Smile. A couple of thoughts on the comments presented. There is agreement on the LAGASA types of markings being from a collective. And as George stated makers could be larger or much smaller. The word I was looking for was the German word we interpret as a “cottage industry” which could even possibly be a one or two man shop. Such as someone who perhaps normally repaired saddles and harnesses, having some hand tools to cut the leather (or fabric), and a sewing machine.

They did not make the materials used which came from: machine shops, metal stampers, leather processors, chemicals (for leather finishes) and the fabric mills which had the necessary very large machines to process the plant fibers and make them into finished webbing rolls. Really a discussion by itself. But those who physically assembled the frogs were really only the last step in a long production process.

I also agree that the blue frogs were probably not made for a long time. I probably should have documented it at the time. But my best recollection is that the first blue frog I posted came from a U.S. veteran who lived in Texas who had been in North Africa. With very likely most of the frogs going to the U.K., one of the ANZAC nations, the U.S. etc. I also think that some blue web gear was seen in Italy, but I’m not a uniform specialist, and am open to their input. My point being that the reason a lot of items are not normally seen in Europe or Germany is that (as was stated) they were not used there. And as a limited issue item there are going to be scarce or very scarce. Because as we know only a relatively small percentage of the total number of items made have survived over the intervening years.

Using an earlier image, how about some “kit” frogs using not green, but different colored backs?

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And for your consideration: There is a little bit of a story which goes with these that I won’t go into at the moment. But here are some frogs where the maker seemed to be using leftover remnants to manufacture usable frogs for the folding shovel. Regards, FP

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no.. the studs you are showing are all originals.
these more like a mushroom.

the fake ones i meen are like a "lense"... two soup plates put together...

these m42 often carried a strange, black rubberlike colour. Often numbered with a wrong R.B.nr. 0/001/0088 (one 1 is missing) or without a number. The rivets on the top had a flate head. the hollow rivets are not the correct version. often blued.

here a pic i get out of the www:

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yes i agree with you, that the making of webbing gear is a part of a specialized indurtsrie.

The same combination of firms exists until now. Calles "Genossenschaften". ofte "Mittelständische Betriebe".
Most little specialized firms of clothing industrie made this.
Surly by booking by LAGO/LAGESA.

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j.de valk ADAM allays produced with this typ of frog stud.

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a othe interessting fakt is the time of producing the dak frogs. to my observations i been thinking until 1944.

on the pic you can see to frogs, a leather one and a webbing one. the frog is Stamped RB.Nr. 0/0554/0005... the canvas frog is stamped but i can only make out 0/???????05. a date is not there. this kind of staming coming in 1944 (middel to end of the year).
The leather frog in origin was brown issued und possibly painted black by a soldier.

standing on the bottom the strap hast the some high.

the studs are the same

the widness of the strap is exacly the same...
there are finer than other ones.

retaining straps often has this wideness.

so i think... both examples were made in 1944 by the same maker.
(possibly by j.de Valk.??)

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suds

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straps

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no... i don´t say every maker produce grren backs. only often found by lagesa dresden.

i own many colours too.

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yes i own of the m42 with canvas back, too.

but beware: a lot of copies exist... some very well done:

http://cgi.ebay.de/KOPPELSCHUH-LEDER-TROPEN-WEB-WEHRMAC...p1638Q2em118Q2el1247

und some less copys.. with the "lense" studs.

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why do the us collectors called the canvas/leather frog "bread bag frogs"??

the same material used for serval kinds of bags, jackets, gaiters, rucksacks, canvas covers, tents, so on so on... not only bread bags...

these frogs often been found on commercial bayonets. these type of frogs not common in the german army.
since 1944 the troops more and more don´t use bayontes. they carried rifels without bajonett adapter. the elite troops of WH, SS and LW are carring fingthing knives.

so they were made in the eastern part, maby czech... for third class troops like volkssturm or east europe alies of germany... who gets commercial bayontes sold by german firms. without a number and a proof the heeres-waffenamt wasn´t involved.

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Gardist, There is a lot to comment on, and I have other duties which are going need my attention very shortly. In reverse order: I don’t know who the first one to call them “breadbag” frogs was, but the name “breadbag” became what they are referred to. I think that AndyB who lives in Slovakia wil tell you the frogs are not seen in that part of the former East Block. They are also not seen in England, but are seen mostly in the U.S. and to a lesser extent France. With southern Germany being where both nations operated side by side in the last days of the war. There is more, but that is the foundation.

As for the frog link you posted I tried it, but was not able to see an image. Perhaps you could get it and post it?

I also try not to get too attached to “rules” which are too often seen broken by manufacturers. Markings can be faked, but they can also be copied perfectly. And I have seen more than one Third Reich item that was an original, but was declared that it was a “fake”, because it was not a “textbook” example. If “textbook” was the only way something could be done we would not see single date digit Mauser rifles. Or bayonets, or the Eagle/25 Waffenamt seen on some bayonets. My point being that I try to look at each item on an individual basis. And if it looks, feels, passes certain tests, as compared to other period items then I go from there versus automatically saying it’s bad. Regards, FP

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I do hope this discussion will be continued with further much valued expert contributions for a while, as I believe I may unintentionally have initiated the world´s most interesting thread on 98k bajonet frogs Eek

I regret that I cannot contribute to the technical discussion on the subject. But I do agree in general with Fred in that I have learned in over 30 years of collecting bayonets that it is basically very dangerous to say that something did not exist. It is legitimate to be sceptical but it is easier to prove something did exist than that it did not. Smile

I am the proud owner of 1 (ONE) Big Grin 98k frog (gfg 1942) and will post pics of it in this thread asap. It will be in good company. Cool

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A brief update: I took a quick look at a half dozen or so of mostly later frogs looking at the tie strap studs. I actually found quit a bit of variation, and even some that looked a lot like the one under discussion, with perhaps a very slightly less pronounced shoulder. Interestingly one of the studs was actually an aluminum one on an earlier frog. The sample size admittedly was very small. But what would really help a lot I think are some good images of the entire frog under discussion for comparison purposes. I will try to take a couple of pictures tomorrow of some of what I saw.

PS to Kilian: You are going to have to be careful. That is how it starts. There was a time when I had one German bayonet and zero frogs. Wink FP

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the frog stud typ i posted is defentifly a fake one. serveral i have been seen.

that have 4 hollow rivets... wrong r.b.nr. 0/001/0088 and a rubber like colour. quantities hab been sold in europe.

newer ones are much better. differnt stamps etc.

the fake studs exist in steel, zink and alu...with sometimes a little bit differents. The Form is quite a result of a lack of correckt maschines... often been seen by indian produkts.

often the front part seems to be stichted like "standing on the head"


About the leather/canvas frog i write with Andy in the german militatria-fundforum.
He owns informations that the frogs been possibly made in czech at End of the war. US tropps captuerd parts of the cezch country and so the frogs mostly were the hand of US soldiers.

Austrian style M95 frogs were found with the same manufakutring details, hollow rivtes, same webbing und leather front. The way of manufacturing is not typical german.

It is possible that they were made realy at the and of the war.
Bevor june 1944 there was no great lack of supply. The realy problem aera was at the eastern front. The most supply goes there.
the canvas/leather frogs must be made End44/45.

An other interesst point is the seleton frog. Serveal found on non-matching SG84/98 out of 1943 and FN24 bayontes. possibly bulgarian?

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quote:
Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
I also try not to get too attached to “rules” which are too often seen broken by manufacturers. Markings can be faked, but they can also be copied perfectly. And I have seen more than one Third Reich item that was an original, but was declared that it was a “fake”, because it was not a “textbook” example. If “textbook” was the only way something could be done we would not see single date digit Mauser rifles. Or bayonets, or the Eagle/25 Waffenamt seen on some bayonets. My point being that I try to look at each item on an individual basis. And if it looks, feels, passes certain tests, as compared to other period items then I go from there versus automatically saying it’s bad. Regards, FP


i never said there are rules... the oposit is normal. the are no realy producing rules.

But...during abservations... i found the same producing prozess, parts etc. on frogs of the same Maker. So mostly the phänotyp is maker spezifikant.

I observed about 200 makers.
Brehme Walsrode and E.O.Götze had the biggest spectrum of typs, materials, rivets etc.
Other ones are A.Fischer and Riese with there rubbert canvas police frogs.

so i never will say that their are rules.

but, what i can say is... generaly producing facts of the differnt makers themselfs.

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Nice discussion, to bread bag frog, i only know that some were find on a blanko bayos in Sudeten area in a HJ depot, certainly we dont know its a czech production, as many were found postwar in USA as brinback of GIs? its probably a emergency production with hollow grips, in Slovakia could be find from time to time some canvas frogs, but i didnt saw any LW blue ones, only the normal green or light brown. best regards,Andy

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