UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Ultra Rare NSKK Honor Dagger

quote:

Originally posted by Skynyrd:
Thanks for keeping us posted mongo, even though its directly none of our business, this kind of thing has an effect on us all.
When people shoot straight, nightmare situations like this don't develop.
This isn't the time or place to cast large stones, thats being covered pretty well on WAF, I hope things work out well for all parties [except the one who created this fiasco].

,,The "fiasco" has claimed three (plus) victims,
so far. A call from "C.J.A." to Mongo in the night...
hmm, sounds like the hell hounds might have the culprits scent?
Easy to see who the criminal is here.
Good luck Mongo, IMO, The "true" owner is lucky that the Honor Dagger is in "your" hands.
Wouldn't want to be Christopher right now.
(Is this a media thing? )

This one is going to get sticky. I know a little about the juris system. Someone's going to take a hit on this, either way.

Stay tuned and be sure to do what's right. This has been a tragedy from start to end.

mongobongo did you have the blade reworked on this dagger or was it reworked by Ailsby?

Has anyone got an account over there who could post something for me. I applied for an account but it has not been opened yet as it needs approving.

If so please PM me or mail me at martin.monty@googlemail.com

Pm me if you need any help Mongo I am on both forums under the same name,
I really hope it works out for you.

Mongo-
I'm on board over there. I can also pass along a message and post it for you as well.

Tom

Thanks guys im sorted, my account got activated in the end.

I feel so bad for all the party's involved here , so much so that this whole topic invaded my dreams last nite...it's just too much to think a deal went down this way.I really do wish for the best outcome for the owner and mongo,as far as the shady dealer I hope he gets what he deserves

Im sure we can all work it out, I dont think any of us are enjoying it so the motivation is there.

Ailsby's reputation has been soiled for all time regardless of the outcome. Best of luck to both of the innocent party's.

mongo, wherever you got your calm reserve from, you should try to put a patent on it.

jeez thats horrible.....i understand the circumstances but ill tell you what ....he tried to sell it to the guy and chris ripped him off ...and now mongo has a truly great piece and he should give it back ??? sure he will get his money back ,,,,,, but im sorry if this offends people but ...unfortunatly some people need to learn the hard way ...the guy did something very stupid ....and in my opinion he should pay for it... he should have never done that..and he did in my opinion he should pay for his mistake...just my opinion

What a remarkably assinine remark. I hope it happens to you one day too.

A slew of low post count Ailsby defenders cropped up on WAF, bound to be some lurking around here too.

save your chris ailsby books unless you run out of toilet paper... ,,the cad should be thrown under the jail,,,

quote:

Originally posted by Erich:
Ailsby's reputation has been soiled for all time regardless of the outcome. Best of luck to both of the innocent party's.

Sorry to say this,but I'll bet that in a relatively short time many will even forget this event ever happened and more people will be screwed by this person.Not to mention future new collectors that will never ever know this event even happened.

I am sure you are right...some people will forget this,There is a "BIG TIME DEALER" (in his eyes)right here on GDC that has done things lower than whale s**t...and he has not missed a beat! I would have thought that his last knuckle headed stunt would have been the straw that broke the camels back. Now another "Big Time Collector/Con man"...joins the SCUMBAG CLUB
ailsby..."YOU ARE NOTHING BUT SCUM"

Sepp
GDC 0292 Gold

Why cant we make a list over people like this,here on the forum??

With big letters Headline,then people maybe remember.

I agree carlos we should be able to make a list of scumbags then other people cant make the same mistake although this probably couldnt be avoided with the main offender being an author ones trust will always be put in someone of his stature..... i feel for you mongo and the other innocent party and i hope the issue can be resolved without lenghtly and costly court action after all our legal system over here is shockingly poor after reading what happened to mongo on (WAF) and how he traded 11 ss daggers and cash for something that never arrived ones heart must go out to mongo to be inolved in this mess after what happened to him 18 months ago i really hope chris gets what he deserves and the other 2 innocent parties get their money back or other stuff of the same value but i fear there will be no winners here.....
this is just my opinion
anyway i wish you the best of luck and mongo i am only up in manchester if you need any help then give me a shout
regards Adam

quote:

Originally posted by Yankowski:

quote:

Originally posted by Erich:
Ailsby's reputation has been soiled for all time regardless of the outcome. Best of luck to both of the innocent party's.

Sorry to say this,but I'll bet that in a relatively short time many will even forget this event ever happened and more people will be screwed by this person.Not to mention future new collectors that will never ever know this event even happened.

Do you think so Rich? Even if there is a satisfactory outcome i.e. Mongo gets his money back from Mr Ailsby and the dagger goes back to Matt there is always the fact that Chris Ailsby really cheated Matt on the original deal, I'm afraid it's a name that will stick with me.

I've seen the pics of Chris Ailsby's collection and he must be a very rich man, to put your reputation on the line for £6000 is a pretty stupid thing to do, if he had coughed up that amount straight away he would now be sitting on a very healthy profit without all this crap, even if Matt had found out later the true value of the item there would have nothing he could do as the deal had been done, now it's unlikely he will be happy with the £6000 and has said he wants the dagger back in the same condition it was sent, which it now aint, wow what a mess

Nolan

I made this point on WAF:

The dagger, after it has been 'tuned' both after purchase by Mongo and before purchase, is no longer worth the money that I believe Mongo paid for it, except, of course, to Mongo.

Ailsby should not profit in any way from this fiasco.

Muddinman's uncle and Muddinman were both happy to receive some 10-12,000 for this dagger a while back.

If the dagger is returned to Muddinman, they will not see anything like the 40-50,000 that the dagger sold for to Mongo (my opinion of this price only).

The best and cleanest solution to all of this is:

1) Mongo keeps the dagger and is happy about that, maybe not so happy about how it has been tainted for any future resale.

2) Ailsby forwards ALL of the money he got for this dagger from Mongo to Muddinam. This should make Muddinman and his uncle way happier than they are today and than they were a year and a half ago when they thought they were getting 10-12,000 for it.

3) Ailsby is out the 40-50,000 (plus he should recompense Mongo and Muddinman for any out of pocket costs that they incurred in this mess) and he has lost his reputation and much o fhis future livelihood.

While the above is the closest to a win, win situation, it is better than the lose, lose situation proposed by taking the dagger away from Mongo and giving a very much less valuable dagger back to Muddin.

John

Carlos:

There are several problems with the list your propose.

1) Everyone makes mistakes. How many does it take to get onto this list?

2) Everyone wants to make a buck. How much profit is too mush to get onto this list?

3) Every big and not so big name in the hobby could end up on this list simply due to annoying one or several people (and who here has not annoyed at least one person in this hobby... I know that I have done and said things to people like Tom W and Tom J and Craig G that annoyed the heck out of them).

4) Such a list would end up being a witch hunt and being hijacked by some for personal vendettas.

I think that knowing who the scam artists are is a good thing in this hobby, but who gets to play God and decide who is on or off the list?

John

What a mess !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After reading whats going on in both forum threads ,i think JOHNZ has far away delivered the best solution to deal with this mess

The original owner has now said it's not a money matter any longer, he wants the dagger back, not a practical solution, I think maybe as he wanted to sell it in the first place he might just be happy to receive the sum that Mongo paid for it, Carlos mentioned that Ailsby would be down on the price that Mongo paid, but he wouldn't in real terms, all he would lose is a potential deal and probably a few quid in expenses.

Imo the best solution all round, Mongo keeps the dagger, Ailsby pays Matt the money he got from Mongo, Ailsby has lost nothing in real terms.

Nolan

John.

U are right,but in a case like this,it is talk about serious cash.
I did not think of a person sell a ithem for $500,in his favor.
Thinking of this case,and other to come.New collectors then have a chanse to see,that there is people to stay away from.

quote:

Originally posted by Nolan:
The original owner has now said it's not a money matter any longer, he wants the dagger back,

When someone says it's not about the money, it's usually about the money.

I could be way off base, but I suspect that seller's remorse is playing a part in all of this.

Nolan's solution seems best. The dagger was sold. The seller claims he wasn't paid. He should not expect the dagger back, especially since it has gone to a third party who paid for it. The original seller should expect to be paid. Wanting the dagger back at this point seriously complicates things. The original buyer should forward the funds owed to the original seller. If such does not take place and the original seller can establish he was not paid, then it is apparent a fraud has taken place, especially since the original buyer maintains payment was sent. Under the laws of most common law countries, the dagger, if established taken by fraud (theft) belongs to the original seller. Should normal procedure be followed, the dagger would be confiscated as evidence by the authorities and held until the matter is legally resolved. It would eventually be returned to the original seller. Such could easily take a number of years. That would leave the current owner out in the cold unless the court orders restitution or he takes civil action against the second seller to recoup his funds, also possibly taking several years to resolve. It seems to be in the best interest of all parties to try to put personal feelings on the back burner and resolve the matter as quickly and simply as possible, as Nolan suggests. If the "middle man" cannot establish he forwarded funds to the first seller and refuses to pay up, I would pursue criminal charges. There is the possibilty the seller arranged to send funds and they were illegally diverted at one end or the other during the transaction. There should be a "paper trail" at the sender's end to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:

quote:

Originally posted by Nolan:
The original owner has now said it's not a money matter any longer, he wants the dagger back,

When someone says it's not about the money, it's usually about the money.

I could be way off base, but I suspect that seller's remorse is playing a part in all of this.

I think you are [way off base].
He was jacked around for 1.5 years.
Any time during that period, he apparently could have been paid off and made happy, but he wasn't.
If he would have been paid, these threads would have never existed.
Since this blew out into the open, sure his eyes were opened a bit to its true value, but putting things in perspective, blowing this out into the open was not done for sellers remorse.

I wonder if Chris A.though he had the dagger on consignment thus no payment for 18 mo. and then he had to be sure the buyer (Mongo) still wanted it thus only 2500 pounds (short by 500 for 1/2 payment).Is this a new ponzi scam ??

Its pretty telling that the subject himself has not made any reply in defense here.
I can see him not replying anymore at WAF, he has already been hung & pilloried there.
Its been relatively civil here, and yet still no word from the man himself as to how this state of affairs that he initiated and created were allowed to fester to this point, and his justification as to how any self respecting, honorable man could:
* Stonewall an agreed payment for 1.5 years
* Sell an item that isn't legally his for a huge profit, and say nothing to the buyer about the circumstances

Its not looking very good for you Mr Ailsby ,,, And if there was any time to [attempt to] mount some sort of defense for your [former] good name, it is right here and right now.

Reading both threads one question comes out:

Why the original owner of this dagger send it to the buyer without getting paid first. I would never do this when it's about dagger worth such a big bucks !!!!
Inspection before buying - no problem - let's meet at my place and have an inspection, but sending it to unknown person - BIG MISTAKE !!!

quote:

Gottlieb

Gottlieb, a hands on exam is the norm before cash is sent, for any dealer/collector of note.
No doubt Craig could verify this - And Mr Ailsby, with his extensive writings, can be considered a collector of note.

No, no one is going to send anything to a forum "skynyrd" like me, or an "Iron Cross Mike" - But someone who is well known, that is how it goes.

Why do people send Don Boyle $8,000 TK rings without getting paid ?
Because they trust him, and know of his rep.
Ask Wittman if he wants to buy one of your daggers, he'd likely say "sure, send it in and I'll tell you what I'll pay once I see it".

Ailsby used his well known status to gain trust, which makes this setup that much more troubling, almost like a cop pulling an armed robbery.

We have to remember the original owner had no idea of the true value and he trusted the buyer for reasons stated.My take don't send something out of the country you live in.Meet the person and have someone with you .One of the reasons we see USA sales only ,buyers and sellers don't need the hassle.The owner would have had an easier time if customs had grabbed it.

Lets not forget the vet in all of this. I think its despicable to do this to a gent who has laid his life on the line for our well-being. Its this sort of disrespect and greed that makes you wonder what people value today.

quote:

Originally posted by Gottlieb:
Reading both threads one question comes out:

Why the original owner of this dagger send it to the buyer without getting paid first. I would never do this when it's about dagger worth such a big bucks !!!!
Inspection before buying - no problem - let's meet at my place and have an inspection, but sending it to unknown person - BIG MISTAKE !!!

Gottlieb, C J Ailsby is a 'DEALER' and dealers do not under normal circumstances pay out prior to receiving goods, it's the normal way of 'DEALING', lets say you need some cash pretty quick and can't be assed with hawking a piece around and decide to sell it on a straight sale basis to TW Or TJ, no problem mate they will take it off your hands, but they will want your piece on their desk before they write out a cheque, it's just how dealers work.

Shady dealings and crooks drove me away from TR stuff in the early 70's and I only 're' started collecting (TR) about 8 or 9 years ago in a very limited way principally because of the internet and being able to easily access genuine honest people, however it seems that the crooks are still around and it really is very 'off putting'; cases like this really do not put this branch of militaria collecting in a good light.

Nolan

I am thankful for this forum for those who have contributed their knowledge to those less experienced in this hobby but wanting to learn. I agree with John Z that a witch hunt, would take away from the true meaning of this Forum and the hobby. Things happen as they will, trouble comes and goes. This unfortunate event will eventually work itself out. Its good to know there are watchers looking out for everyone and the protection of the hobby. Stay focused on the hobby but not getting too far away from it, and keeping it in a reasonable balance through discipline. The GDC and its collection of members are another facet in this diamond of a hobby, shining light on subjects that makes collecting enjoyable. I am glad to be here. Things will work out! Best regards Larry

Look ailsby is SCUM..."Period" He sold the dagger and spent the money on??? He could care less about paying the money to the original seller... 1 1/2 years and ALL he has done is jack the guy around.

I read some of these post here, and I just wonder if alot of you have read the PURE "BS" replies from warloard SCUM BAG
ailsby, on the other site!

Sepp

quote:

Originally posted by Sepp:
Look ailsby is SCUM..."Period" He sold the dagger and spent the money on??? He could care less about paying the money to the original seller... 1 1/2 years and ALL he has done is jack the guy around.

I read some of these post here, and I just wonder if alot of you have read the PURE "BS" replies from warloard SCUM BAG
ailsby, on the other site!

Sepp

"Alot of you" ?
He has been roundly condemned here, with only a couple of posts out of dozens that could be construed as mildly sympathetic.
If you haven't noticed, the other sites thread is now closed, and guys getting too emotional, calling him every name in the book and not so subtly hinting at physical violence, more than likely had something to do with that.

No need for a repeat of that here, guys can chose their words and get their point across without sounding uncouth, violent & vulgar, especially in a matter that doesn't directly concern them anyhow.