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During my research of the Landesschießen events held in Innsbruck from 1938-1944 (for use in a possible future publication) I was fortunate to come across some documents relating to the Meisterschütze & Gaumeister badges.

As a result I am now able to supply names of many of the recipients of the numbered Meisterschütze & Gaumeister badges issued from 1941-1944. The lists I currently have are unfortunately not complete for all years, however I do have the full roll call for the 1944 Meisterschütze & Gaumeister badges.

The lists are long comprising of well over 2,000 names in alphabetical, not numerical order, so take quite sometime to research. However if anyone would like me to look up a number please let me know.

Below: Meisterschütze 1942, #1043 issued to Karl Quooß, of Bregenz.........

Complete cased set 1941-1944 (includes a 3 year Gaumeister not shown), plus 4 year spange, all issued to Josef Flotzinger of Munich.

Don,

Very, neat. I recently picked up a 1943 example
that's numbered 694. Anything on that number?

Thanks and best regards!

Bill Warda

Indeed there is Bill.

#694 issued to Josef Wiedemann of Innsbruck. He also achieved another in 1944.

May we see a picture of it?

Cheers
Don

Hi Don, Can you check for the ones I have when you get a chance.
Meisterschütze 1942 #1236

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Meisterschütze 1943 # 2349

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Meisterschütze 1944 #2357

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Hi Raymond,

Sorry for the delay, I forget how long it takes to go through the lists.

1942, #1236 issued to Friedrich Kleißl of Innsbruck. He achieved two more Meisterschütze in the following two years plus the 3 year Gaumeister in 1944.

Nothing for either of the other two I'm afraid. As I said before, the lists are incomplete for '41-'43 so I still maybe able to turn up something for the 1943 if I find more lists. However the roll is complete for 1944 so I can confidently say that #2357 was either a replacement/extra purchased piece, or it was unissued.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Cheers
Don

Don,

Very nice, thank you!

Ray, thanks for the additional photos.

Something striking is/are the different types of pin attachment plates.

Don, keep up the great work!

Bill

2/2

My pleasure Bill. It's nice to be able to give something in return for all the help you guys have given me over the years.

The style of pin plate used on these is usually fairly consistent. The type on Raymonds '44 is the first I've seen like that.

Cheers
Don

O.K Don, hope you can help with my 1944 dated set, from top and clockwise the numbers are
2593 - 668 - 1021 - 2741.

Reverse

Thanks Don.Every little bit of information is appreciated .I think we have the makings of another informative thread. What is the highest awarded number in 1944?

Not a great deal of success I'm afraid Gary.

1944, #668 issued to Hermann Tanzer of Innsbruck. He achieved a Meisterschütze badge in each of the years 1941-'44, also gaining the 3 year Gaumeister in '43 & the 4 year spange in '44.

Neither of the other two Meisterschütze were issued. The highest numbers in the awarded groups were in the number range of 2400, there was only one badge issued with a number in the 2700's & two issued in the 2900's but none at all in the 25, 26, or 2800's.......

With regard to the 3 year Gaumeisterzeichen. 1944 was only the second year it was issued, with only 323 given that year. The higest number seems to have been #798. So I think it's safe to be that this too is an unissued/replacement badge.

It's interesting to see so far that a majority of 1944 badges (not just those posted here but others I've checked as well) are unissued. This could be down to passing troops finding them wherever they were kept & taking them back to the US, or boxes of them were found postwar & dispersed onto the market at that stage.

Cheers
Don

Hi Raymond,

Sorry, I missed your post. As I coincidentally wrote above, the largest group of numbers are in the 2400's but there were 3 issued well out of sequence one in the 2700's & two in the 2900's.

It may interst you to know though that in 1944 a total of 2,337 Meisterschütze badges (proper name Gaumeisterschützen) were issued, of which 250 were to young shooters & 62 to females. A total of 31,644 people took part in the 14 day event.

Cheers
Don

Hi Don
As with the 1943 set it seems that they were put together after the war, shame as I had thought they would have been similar to yours and awarded to one man.
Thanks anyway, I apreciate your efforts.

Cheers

Gary

Gary,

I think that with the discovering of these documents, we will be able to shed more light on this previously little known or collected area.

The case I have contained one badge from each year which we now know is how it would have been. Originally it was thought that a shooter would obtain several Meisterschütze in one year. Until these document were unearthed there was no real way of knowing whether my set or yours was how it should be or of being able to ascertain whether groups of badges were awarded to an individual or not.

As a reminder the picture below is how I found the group. It came with an Ehrenkarte with a name for the 3 year Gaumeister, but there was no way until now of confirming that the other badges were part of the same grouping. We still can't with the Gauleistungs but we are at least a step further down the road

Cheers
Don

Nice as always Don- + great info. I'm still waiting for the day that I see something boring out of your collection. Is it even possible?

Thank you for the kind words Lance.

There are many who consider these particular badges boring......

Cheers
Don

Great information Don. As you probably know I have almost a complete collection of these Tyrol badges including the 6 year and 9 year Gaumeisterschutz badges. What type publication did you find that has this information -and where did you find it?
Also -There are booklets-perhaps for each year that have information and photos of personalities wearing the badges and taking part in the event--including Himmler. Do you have any of these? I have the 1943 edition. These events began in 1938 so I am wondering if the 3 and 6 year badges-even though not issued until 1943 ( Is this information in your publication?) could have been issued to those who qualified in the earlier years upon application-if so these numbers may not be recorded. I would think this could be the case.
Also-you said earlier that it was thought earlier that several Meisterschutz badges could be won by one person in a single year. Why would you think that?
Also-I think these badges had to be bought by the qualifier?? So--many may have not bought one-perhaps only those who bought one were recorded ??
The information you found is a great start but I think there is a whole lot more to be learned about these badges. Perhaps more information can be found.

Hi Houston, Thank you, Indeed there is still much to learn, & still a lot more in the documents I have. I've been pouring over them for a couple of weeks now.

I don't know the name of the main document as the front cover is missing, however it is a book detailing the events & statistics of the shoots. Every entrant of the event in 1944 is listed with full details of their scores for every shoot they took part in. Every person who qualified for the grade has a badge number by their name, I've been cross referencing to try & see whether any are missing but it seems all received a badge.

It also stated the numbers of all the different types of badges issued for each year from 1938 onwards (bronze, silver, gold, gold with oakleaves etc). The "Kombination" events for which the Meisterschütze badges were issued are treated as a completely seperate set of shoots from 1941 onwards, so I doubt whether earlier qualification would count as the event seems to have been a new one in '41. It also clearly states the number of 3 year badges issued in 1943 (390) & 1944 (323), there is also a big thing over the introduction of the 4 year spange & the 279 shooters who qualified for it that year. I can't find any mention of earlier shooters receiving it retrospectively.

There is no mention at all of the 6 year Gaumeister, so I take it that your theory, mentioned before on an earlier thread, that the 9 year had been produced ready for future use was also the case with the 6 year badge.

I aquired the documents through a friend in Austria who found them in a second hand bookshop quite by chance. Also with the book was a similar type of report to the above but less detailed for 1941, a pamphlet like you describe for the 1942 event & a Stammkarte for the "pistole 1942" discipline.

My comments re an earlier theory of person possibly being able to win several badges in a year was just down to speculation amongst collectors, incorrectly based on the only cased sets I'd seen before that, like Gary's, only contained badges from a single year, nothing more.

There is so much more to discover just in these documents alone, without whatever else is out there. Hopefully slowly we shall find out more.

Cheers
Don

Re the 3 year badges-Do those start in 1943 with number one and continue through 1944 or do the 44 badges begin with number 1 also. If numbered separately for both years it would be difficult to tell which was which-43 issue or 44 issue
Also--I believe the 4 year spange should be on the wreath of the 3 year Gaumeisterschutz badge? Correct?-not on the gold Meister badge,

It seems that the 3 year was continuously numbered from 1943 through '44.

Yes that's correct Houston, there is an image in the the book showing the 3 year with the 4 year spange attached. It seems for some odd reason that my chap decided to attach it to a '44 badge.

I forgot to mention that the book also lists all the prizes & their values as well as who received them. I haven't even started on that section, I've been concentrating on the badges.

Houston, I forgot to ask, are the 6 & 9 year badges numbered? If so I think it could show that they were production pieces manufactured early, if not, it may indicate that they were prototypes for planned future production?

I've found these badges fascinating since I first found one & you helped me find out what they were (thank you again for that). Now I'm totally addicted to them......

Cheers
Don
Cheers
Don

Yes Don- the 6 year is # 4 and the 9 year is # 7. The 6 year is a high quality heavy badge with a bright silver wreath that was made that way. It also has a heavier pin catch. I also have miniatures of the 3 and 6 year badges.( the mini's are not numbered) I'll get my numbers together for you to check and I'll send you a list of my duplicates for sale and my "want" list. I used to find these badges quite often-but not anymore. Is there any info on the small shield type badges or the small dated ones that all have the green enameled wreath but no pistol or KK or other designation?

Thanks for the info on the 6 & 9 yr Houston. I can't see them bothering to number prototypes or samples, can you?

I guess this can be put down to the infamous German efficiency . However, thinking about it, if they were expecting to issue in excess of 300 of these each year, having a good stockpile to start with would give them time to keep up with the growing demand, year on year. while leaving time to manufacture the dated annual badges.

I've noticed that the eagles on the 3 year are magnectic whereas the wreaths are not, is this also the case with the 6 & 9 as well?

So far I can not see any mention of either the shield shaped badges or the round ones without designation. The standard minis are mentioned, it seems that they were 50 Rpf each.

Looking forward to your lists

Cheers
Don

Hi Don--Yes--the 6 and 9 also have magnetic eagles--but the miniatures don't. I don't think they were really prototypes but I don't think they made many. I have never seen another 9 and only a couple of the 6 year ones. They may have been display pieces-just a few made with more to be ordered later.

WOULD you have any info on a 1944 badge number 2819 ?

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by paulbear:
WOULD you have any info on a 1944 badge number 2819 ?
Paul

Unfortunately not Paul, the highest numbers in the awarded groups were in the number range of 2400, there was only one badge issued with a number in the 2700's & two issued in the 2900's but none at all in the 25, 26, or 2800 range.......

I would assume this would have been one of the spares, either unissued or a replacement piece.

Sorry.

Don

Don--Forgot I had another 6 year badge numbered 244--so they did make at least a few of these.

Thanks for the extra information Houston, that's very interesting & helpful

Cheers
Don

I just bought that numbered badge off German war booty sight it is still listed

PAUL

Ahh, I thought the number rang a bell. I'd already checked it for someone else..... Neither of the badges John has listed on his site at the moment are on the lists.

Cheers
Don

your find of the rolls has peaked interest in these awards and has caused me to add this one now and will try to add more . Thanks for your help and input

PAUL

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:....
Also-I think these badges had to be bought by the qualifier?? So--many may have not bought one-perhaps only those who bought one were recorded ??....

I was reading through this thread again today & noticed a point that I forgot to clarify.

No, the badges were not bought as such by the participant. One badge was automatically included with the cost of the Stammkarte. However the shoot could be repeated to achieve a higher level if required. Lower grade badges could be exchanged for free for a higher grade badge once the appropriate score required had been reached (bronze for silver, silver for gold etc). If however the participent wanted to keep the awarded lower grade badge & also receive the next grade up he/she would have to pay for any higher grade badges awarded.

Cheers
Don

UPDATE

Following many enquiries with archives throughout Germany since July last year, I've now managed to obtain further lists of Meisterschütze badge numbers for the previous years.

I now have the names of all those who received badges in 1941. Unfortunately it seems that only the names, not the badge numbers were recorded in that year. However following hours of painstaking cross referencing, I have managed to find the badge numbers for 431 of the 748 names I have recorded for 1941 using documents from the following years.

I now have all of the recorded badge numbers for the years 1942 through 1944 plus the complete list of numbers for the issued 3 year badges!!!!

Following that I can now confirm that Raymond's 1943 badge #2349 is also either a replacement/extra purchased piece, or it was unissued, as there is only one badge number in the 2300 range & that is #2321. The highest number apart from that one is #2280.

For reference the highest badge number issued in 1942 was 1399. As with the other years, there are gaps in the number sequences suggesting that for what ever reason some badges were not issued/recorded.

In answer to Houston's enquiry in an earlier post as to whether the 3 Year badges were issued from #1 in 1943 & continue numerically into 1944, yes they do. However many of the lower numbers do not seem to have been issued for some reason, for example of the possible 89 two digit serial number badges available (#10-99) only 25 numbers were recorded as issued.....

It's surprising how many of the badges in collections & on dealer sites are unissued, confirming that there must have either been a hoard found post war or GI's liberated the store as they moved through the area. It's quite hard to find issued pieces in collections. Finally, I thought I'd share some of my recent pick-ups with you. 6 new badges, all issued pieces (unfortunately all to different people).

Houston, pm sent.

Cheers
Don

Reverses.