UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum A black finished KS98

Gents,

I just returned from the Kansas City Military Show and I picked a few KS98. This is the long and the short of it. Sorry for the pun. I do want to discuss the black finished KS98 though.

George

The black finished short model KS98 is something of a mystery. One will find Imperial German swords with steel hilts and black paint finishes. Some folks have opined that these black finished edged weapons were made during the time of the Weltkreig in order to not reflect light in the trenches. Some have reasoned that they were made during the time of the Weimar Republic and the black finish symbolized mourning for the loss of the war. Others have speculated that since brass, nickel, and chromium were in short supply, the black paint finish was substituted instead of plating the hilts or using brass.

I think it reasonable that it was simply another finish that was offered by the various Blanke Waffen companies. Whatever the case, these KS98 bayonets seem to be seldom encountered. Some are obviously from the Imperial period as they have three rivets in the grips. Some seem to be from the time of the Weimar Republic as they have only two rivets in the grips. This bayonet is one with two rivets in the black checkered grip. The press button is missing from this example but the red felt remains in the lug slot.

Closeup view of the Henckels Zwillingswerk twins trade mark on the polished steel blade.

Anyone else with a black paint finished example of the KS98?

George

George, Nice bayonets! I was and still am of the opinion that the black finished (both painted and blued) dress bayonets, swords (etc.) were later wartime variations of WW I Imperial era dress blades. And it could have been a combination of the lack of suitable raw materials combined with the desire to reduce reflections that led to their creation. While very scarce nowadays, first there were the cloth helmet covers, that were followed (or contemporary) with other measures to minimize light reflections.

Unlike the hilts, the blued blade on your ‘shorty’ is not that common IMO, but the proof of both concepts is I think embodied in the attached image, specifically of the lower of the two unit marked issue IOD 89’s for senior NCO’s. The earlier brass mounted one on top is finished as one would expect. The lower wartime example is made of steel (which also has a wood not sharkskin covered grip) and is blued. The hilt could have been polished steel like the issue KD89’s - but was IMO deliberately blued to minimize reflections for infantry operations.

It would be interesting I think to see some other examples of blued/painted examples to try and determine how common or scarce they are as a group. FP

FP,

Very nice sword examples. I do agree with you that what you describe could very well have influenced the desire for a blackened finish. All the theories as to "why" this finish was offered make some sense and have some logic behind them.

While I cannot fault your logic, I will point out a couple of things. The blade on my bayonet is actually not blued (poor lighting as I see now that it does look dark) but is polished bright. I suspect your sword blades are also finished bright or is one of them plated? Also, some of these KS98 bayonets (I am not positive about the swords) were made after the end of WWI. That can be seen by looking at those that have a rememberance of the world war etching on the blade and a black finished hilt. I don't know if this was perhaps nostalgia for the blackened wartime bayonets or the use of old parts while under mandate to not make new weapons of war during the Allied occupation, or what. But at any rate, the need for camouflage was past.

So, FP and I have shown some examples of blackened Blanke Waffen... Who else has one to show and discuss?

George

Dang! I have to admit that the lighting sure fooled me

I’ve seen a number of black hilted bayonets including some that were undoubtedly intended for officers. The point is well taken as regards the post WW I commemorative marked bayonets, which as a group seem to be all over the landscape. Some black mounted examples have been presented on the forum in the past, but I don’t recall if they were examined in detail, which usually is helped by side by side postings so that similarities and differences can be discussed in context.

PS: The blades on both swords are polished steel not plated and both of the OEM scabbards are blued. The steel mounted issue IOD 89’s are I think relatively rare. FP

Orpo,
The etched unmarked listed below I have shown before, but the other 2 are more recent additions. One is marked with the Eickhorn back to back squirrels and I know this TM is date-able but couldnt find a reference on the forum?. The other is unmmarked but obviously E-PACK from the grip plate spanner bolts. Another thing I was told when I initially displayed my etched was that the grip plates would probably be made of horn as they appear to be translucent in colour and differ from the norm. Certainly the 3 shown below all have the same characteristic. All 3 have plated blades but crude steel hilts under the paint which would suggest they where designed to be painted, if you look closely at the picture of the hilt assembly on the etched example the metal showing from under the paint appears to be nickel / copper?. Whether this was to stop light reflection or as a sign of respect / mourning is difficult to say, either explanation sounds plausible to me.
As yet I have only come across the short version, has anybody seen a bigger one??.
Thanks for showing George

George

The one you show looks like the blade has a light blueing on the blade, maybe its my monitor.

Is the bayonets blued or painted or both?

Degens

Thanks for showing the pictures, I appreciate the bigger pictures. The back to back squirrels are from the 1920 as I recall.

TKissinger

Interesting topic on the blackened Blanke Waffen. I have not seen the longer version too but I do have a small fixable trench knife in the black. This one was not maker's marked. I have no idea on the authentity of the emblem, but it looks old.

Also have a non-fixable KS98 with a similar emblem, this one was bought from a BCNer. Was told that it was from the estate of late Jerry Janzen. This one has a plated blade with no maker's mark. I think the frog is from WWII.

Finally here's one by WKC with their early king's head & knight logo. The blade is polished steel which I always like in these Blanke Waffen.

Hi George,
Here's a pic of a blackened Anton Wingen bayo.It has a single round oiling or cleanout hole on the left side of the checkered horn grip.Every ks98 dress piece I've encountered with this anomaly will mount to a rifle.I can't see why this feature would have been added to a dress piece except in a WWI context where a remote possiblity existed that it might actually have to be used.

BR's,
Len

Great bayonets guys!

FP, I thought your sword blades were polished bright. Most of the black finished KS98 I have seen also have bright finished blades, instead of plated, as well. I don't know why that is.

Degens, Great KS98 examples. Some of these grips seem to be horn, hard rubber, or black wood. That indicates they are Imperial or Weimar period to me as I see very few NS Zeit KS98 with hard rubber or wood grips. I had not thought of it, but like you, I have not seen a long style KS98 with a black finish. All mine are short.

Terry, you bring up an interesting thing about the blade on my new KS98. While the blade is finished bright there is a line at the ricasso that looks as if the hilt was perhaps dipped into blueing after being attached to the blade. The finish is black paint but it is entirely possible that the hilt was blued before being paint finished. The only other thing that I can figure out is that the paint separated in the drying treatment???

Keith, Also short bayonets. Your first bayonet with the double edged dagger-style blade is shown as an Officer Dolch in period catalogs. So this is really an officer dagger before the 1935 Heer Offizer Dolch was introduced. You will find these in Imperial and Weimar period Blanke Waffen catalogs.

Len, I agree that the oiling holes in the grip are an interesting anomaly. I have seen them on some dress KS98 but as you say, usually on bayonets that will actually affix to a rifle.

George

Hi George,

If you look closely at my 3rd pic, the WKC bayonet also has the 'line' on the ricasso like yours. But the line was not straight, it looks more like being done by spraying, and that darkened area also looks like paint rather than blued. Interesting to learn that these bayonets were assembled before they were painted.

Keith

Keith,

Yes, I can see the line in your photo. It looks like the remains of a similar line on the ricasso of the Eickhorn that Degens shows, and perhaps one on Len's. I suspect these were covered by the leather washer. Here is another photo of mine showing the bright blade and line better but the black washes out under the light. I am not a very good photographer I am afraid. The line on mine does appear to be blueing under the thicker black paint. But again I suppose the finish may have separated over the years instead of being done in two stages. It certainly does appear that the hilt was assembled (without grips) before the finish was applied.

George

Some beautiful and interesting bayonets!!

Degens, Very nice. That custom etched example is truly a one of a kind that hopefully can be traced back to the original owner.

Len, I don’t think that I’ve seen the circular drain hole variant on a black finished bayonet myself. You learn something new every day.

Keith, I’ve seen similar bayonets to yours with emblems present that were OK, and believe that yours also is very likely legitimate and wouldn’t worry about it.

George, The swords I posted are/were government issue and did not have plated blades as was standard practice for government owned property.

The dress bayonets are another matter, and can be found both in polished steel and nickel plated like a number of Imperial swords. With the nickel plating usually an extra cost option that required less maintenance to prevent rust etc. Nickel plating also obscured to some extent polishing/finishing flaws, so I’m sure it didn’t take too much to tip the cost/benefit scales, which is why (IMO) so many TR dress bayonets were nickel plated.

PS: On your bayonet with the bluing evident on the blade: Nickel plated blades were finished separately. My point here being that to have a blued hilt and blade they were probably finished as a single unit. Why the difference and that may be an area for further investigation. FP

FP,

I agree that nickel plated blades would have been finished separately and probably would not have held a black finish as well as the polished steel blades. It is also very possible that the black finish was not always applied after partial assembly as each maker would have their own finishing / assembly process. It is an intersting line of enquiry.

Len,

Not all of these KS98 style bayonets that had oil/clean out holes in the girps will affix to a rifle. I have several that will not, but most of them will attach as you indicate.

Here is an example of a solid eagle pommel Seitengewehr with a black paint finish. These are seldom encountered and are generally thought of as "Honor Bayonets."

Closeup view of the black finished steel hilt. The grips do not have oil holes and this bayonet will obviously not attach to a rifle. The eagle head pommel is very distinctive with a "topknot" that is typical of early Weyersberg manufactured eagle head pommel bayonets. This bayonet is not maker marked. The eyes are red stones inset in the same manner as they are in lion head sword hilts.

The short blade is polished steel and has no maker markings. It is stamped "GES GESCH" on the reverse ricasso, so the distinctive design was registered and enjoyed some legal patent/copyright protection. Another example of a black finished bayonet.

George

I described the double edged bayonet that Keith showed as a dagger for army officers. Here is a catalog page from WKC that shows these short Seitengewehre with a single edged 14cm blade as their Nr.93 and listing it as an Armeedolch. Notice the scabbard has a leather belt loop and hilt retention strap like Keith's. This catalog does not show the 1935 Heer Offizierdolch but does show the HJ knife. The WKC catalog showing the 1935 Heer officer dagger no longer offers this Armeedolch Nr.93.

Two examples of this same type of black finished Seitengewehr from Swordz collection. I will let Jax comment on them.

View of the reverse of these bayonets.

George:
Many thanks for posting my black pom. fighting knives.
George thinks, and I agree, that these were Officer purchases.
They certainly aren't in the condition of all the other beautiful blades shown on this forum but they do fit into my collection of fighting knives.
Again George, Thanks.
Jax

Jack,

You are certainly welcome. Here is a shot of your larger black finished KS98 with a cypher in the grip. Jack believes these grips are probably horn.

Closeup view of the grips and hilt.

Hi George,

Thank you for posting the WKC catalog. As a side note I always like the WKC 25cm 'carbine' blade with slim fuller. I think this is unique to WKC (?) as I haven't seen any other makes having this configuration. Ah....and the Nr.91 is even rarer

Happy Collecting,

Keith

Hi!

I have couple of pictures of mine black KS98. It has 2 early Eichorn logo with polished steel blade. Paint has weared away a bit in handle. What is interesting, is, that under a frog stud there is some unknow numbers and C.E which probably means Eichorn. Staghorn grips are weared too and there is and oiling hole too.

Kimmo K

and picture 2

and last one!

Kimmo,
Thats a very attractive bayonet even with the slight paint loss and its interesting to note that most of the examples shown on this page come with the luxury or more expensive private purchase options. i.e stag grips, etched , personalised etc. What I dont quite understand is the need for the drain hole?, if these items where indeed made just after WW1, I thought the need to fit sidearms to weapons had been outlawed or was it still permitted on privately purchased items?.
Kimmo, out of curiousity is the Eickhorn TM the back to back squirrels as above on your example as I cant make it out, many thanks

Some more very nice examples of wartime black finished bayonets! I know that dress bayonets were private purchases and not the same as government issued bayonets. And that not all of them have the small holes/slots next to the crossguards. However, even though they were probably not really intended for front line use, a great many were configured to be able to be used on rifles if the need arose. While over the years, like other collectors, I myself have used different terms/expressions for the small grip holes upon reflection I’ve come to the conclusion that they are probably best referred to as “cleanout” holes. Especially for those bayonets that have the permanently affixed riveted grips.

My reasoning is as follows: The purpose of the “T/O” slot in the pommel of a bayonet is to accept the bayonet stud and a rifle cleaning rod. While no doubt the hole at the end of the cleaning rod channel next to the cross guard will permit rain water or oil to drain IMO it was intended to allow the removal something more serious. Dirt/debris could and would sometimes collect in the T/O slot’s cleaning rod channel and If the grips cannot be are removed how do you get it out to be able to mount a bayonet??

In theory (at least ) the opening next to the cross guard would permit the dirt/debris that collected in the cleaning rod channel to be removed. In issue bayonets with dismountable grips every once in a great while I have encountered bayonets with dirt/debris or sometimes pieces of “spaghetti’ (from the rifle cleaning kits) in the cleaning rod channel which proves that this was an ongoing problem.

What I was not paying enough attention to in my observations was the infantryman’s unwanted companion mud. Looking at some of the pictures from the First World War (and later the Russian campaign) where weapons and field gear were bathed in mud they had to have some way to get the mud out quickly so that a bayonet could be mounted on a rifle. And to do without taking the bayonet apart in the field - which was completely impossible with riveted grip examples. A simple modification, the cleanout hole, provided a reasonably effective low cost solution to the problem. Inasmuch as dress bayonets were fancy versions of issue ones once cleanout holes were standardized they carried over as a functional part of the design. FP

quote:

Kimmo,
Thats a very attractive bayonet even with the slight paint loss and its interesting to note that most of the examples shown on this page come with the luxury or more expensive private purchase options. i.e stag grips, etched , personalised etc. What I dont quite understand is the need for the drain hole?, if these items where indeed made just after WW1, I thought the need to fit sidearms to weapons had been outlawed or was it still permitted on privately purchased items?.
Kimmo, out of curiousity is the Eickhorn TM the back to back squirrels as above on your example as I cant make it out, many thanks

Thanks Degens! It has Eichorn TM with the back to back squirrels. It is very faint, but it can be seen. There is also C.E or C.F markinks below it. I bought this bayonet just this week and the sellers didn't have a clue what it was. Price was 71 euros, but these are really hard to get here in Finland. I asked about the history of the bayonet from the seller and he said that he got it from his father, nothing more. Sometimes you can find a good stuff if there is luck...

Ger:
I do appreciate a blade with stag grips, especially with a "Carbine" blade.
Yours was certainly a bargain...it would easily sell here in the US for double your Euros price!
Thanks for sending us the pictures.
Jax

hi guys, i'm no bayonet expert but i just wanted to share a story:

when i was a kid i bought my first bayonet from a junk shop. i bought it because i had a passing interest and it was very cheap. for years i didn't know what type it was but i recently found out it is a finnish m28/30 http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Finn-bayonets.asp and is quite rare. as i recall the guy had quite a few of them- if only i had bought more!
anyway, stupid teenager that i was, i decided that in order for a weapon to look 'cool' it had to be black! i got out my gun bluing cream and black acrylic paint (for the grips!!!) and set to work, and soon i had my all black bayonet!

this story does have a happy ending though, when i dug it out to find out what it was i decided in my adult wisdom to see if i could restore it to its former glory.

the wooden grip panels must have been treated with cosmoline and the paint had not adhered well so i managed to rub it off with my thumbnail (took ages!)
a rub down with wire wool made short work of the blueing cream and now it looks exactly as i found it (the blade was perfect and very bright when i bought it)

I didn't worry about ruining its collector value by cleaning it as i had already ruined it in the first place, i guess it was more of a restoration but i'll never sell it anyway, it was my first bayonet- too many fond memories.

when you see an historical artifact that someone else has ruined, it's frustrating- imagine if it had been you that did it! i have truly learned my lesson.

well i'm sorry to ramble on, and you may think i'm off topic here but here is my point: is it at all possible that some of these bayonets were finished black by people like me? maybe we'll never know!

I just picked up this bayonet and thought I would post it. It's a little like the one Aurelia posted except this one has three rivets. Its has a little wear but overall its in good shape.




TKissinger

Here's one click I owned some years ago... with an unmarked sawback blade. No scabbard but $20 at a South Dakota flea market...This crude pic was my first attempt at cataloging with a dig camera.