UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum LUFTWAFFE SURVIVAL MACHETE - ALCOSO

Fred,I posted the period advertisement above to point out what I believe is overkill on these machetes. The machetes available for cultivation work were 5-10 cm shorter than the "survival" machetes and they were produced cheaper.Again I ask, why would anyone go to the trouble of ordering the brass fixture blades, or the steel ones, with steel scabbards, for cultivation purposes, when you had the shorter, cheaper version available at about RM 15,- with a leather scabbard? I don't think it economically logical to think these "survival" machetes were exported anywhere.

As to the question of whether the police used emergency supplies on their Flieger-Staffel planes, there is documentation that the police were ordering survival drillings from J.P. Sauer & Sons during the war. The drilling was a component of the survival kit. Ergo, the police provided survival kits on their multi-engine planes.

Hey Guys!
I dont know if you can see this or not maybe you need to sign up over at Jan's forum???
I had not looked there for a while but remembered the thread on these not much info but may wet your whistle a bit!!! The fellow shows the axe also.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=3056
Also... while we are heating the grill on this stuff here. I'm a pistol collector but never into the drillings. Joe, were the drillings found with the police mark Eagle B???
I also got an email yesterday from a fellow whos said at some "military interest" forum??I think was the name he gave me?? I can look again if someone wants, anyway they had some postings on this subject. I have no desire to join yet another forum!! maybe some one here knows of that place?
Bret Van Sant

Joe,
I was very remiss in leaving out part of my thinking. Which your observations helped to bring into a little better focus for me. Thanks.

At one time I was actively collecting U.S military machetes. I never managed to get all of them which was OK because I was more interested in the WW II variety. They ranged from about 26” blades to 18” with the folders down to about 10”. So length to me doesn't have as much relevance.

“Overkill” I think is relative. By German standards U.S machetes had very flimsy scabbards. Oftentimes just folded canvas. U.S bayonets were better, but still plastic which could break, which is something that happened to very large numbers of them. Period U.S hiking and utility knives had leather scabbards, as did commando knives etc. Whereas the Germans in that era seem to have never developed the same kind of mind set. Highly valuing steel scabbards for just about everything. And one of the possibilities that I had in mind was something that was more of a machete designed for military or possibly paramilitary personnel in the colonies or elsewhere.

I have multiple examples of German export versions of bayonets (markings and/or finish only - identical construction) for both Spain and Portugal in new or near new condition. And a not so nice one that still seems to be a little bit of a mystery to me as to who the customer might have been. So it’s not unreasonable IMO to reverse that. And assume that an an export model of a machete for military or paramilitary use could have been adopted by the Luftwaffe when the need arose. There are many conversions of preexisting products to military use - sometimes used old stock parts to get production going. So I really don’t have a problem with some of the seemingly well used brass examples getting into the hands of the troops for the purposes of testing or general use. Having a few German “trials” examples myself which were never adopted for mass production. That’s why the idea of a possibly aluminum hilted “trials” machete occurred to me when I was looking at the Die Woche picture. With the steel examples of course being the final versions.

Where I’m having a problem is that I’ve seen way too many “minty” brass machetes versus almost zero steel ones. Those are the numbers I’ve seen and it just does not seem to add up. I’m not ruling out anything, but wondering if a possible postwar importation of surplus machetes has skewed the numbers. (Which is also why I seem to have seen a fair number of ex-Portuguese bayonets that now have been magically transformed overnight into “SS” bayonets.)

I also don’t really have a problem with the German Police having its own Flieger-Staffel or mini - air force. My question was more directed to an approximate time as to its creation if you have an idea when. Or even your best guess trusting your judgement. The folding shovels seem to be a part of the survival kit irrespective of packaging. What I’m wondering is how the drilling would fit? And wouldn't it have gotten banged around like all of the other stuff (machete, shovel etc.) that was thrown together? Or was it separately protected? I’m not questioning that it was ordered or included. I’m just trying to figure out how they protected it, especially the barrel. Have a recollection of a fitted case - but not sure how they got it all to fit together for aircraft use.

PS to Bret: Thanks for the link I started out as pistol collector myself. After that I’m not quite sure what happened.

The machete from what I can see looks OK. In the past I’ve had some military issue axes but I don’t really know them. That said, the axe seems to be OK also but that is just a guess.
Best Regards to you both, Fred

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
Hey Guys!
but may wet your whistle a bit!!! The fellow shows the axe also.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=3056
Also... while we are heating the grill on this stuff here. I'm a pistol collector but never into the drillings. Joe, were the drillings found with the police mark Eagle B???
I also got an email yesterday from a fellow whos said at some "military interest" forum??I think was the name he gave me?? I can look again if someone wants, anyway they had some postings on this subject. I have no desire to join yet another forum!! maybe some one here knows of that place?
Bret Van Sant

Hi Bret.
That machete on the Lugerforum have 7 "grooved" lines in the grip.
My machete & John`s have 8.

Here is Johns machete below.


Here is mine


and here is the luftmachete from the Luger forum.

You see the difference very easy. And the shape of the crossguards end`s is not exactly matched the two others.

I guess i always leave out stuff too Fred
I will "guess" that the picture shown from the luger forum is a steel hilted variant, Also.. I have looked in my old reference books, These are called "the museum of historical arms" they are actually a sales catalog. Mayby some of the ol school colletors remember these? anyway, they were printed about once a month in the 50's and later. I see no reference to these machetes being offered for sale. I will offer this tid bit about items that "we" think are not imported from other sources. A group of us pistol collectors got together and ordered factory letters for our Norwegian made Colt .45's
I was amamzed that a factory letter could be had for a german occupied war time gun(this is the only case I know of!!) So began to research the history of the gun and how these guns ended up in the USA. To save the long version here... I ran into a collector at a local show who had one of the occupation made guns. We discussed the hows and whys and the rare chance a US vet could capture this gun, it could have happened so I wont say never, but in the late 50's or very early 1960's a group of these guns were brought into the US before the current import laws, and sold a 59.99 usd. So for me its possible to asume that SOME of the minty and even some of the well used machetes we see were imported in small numbers. Maybe in some period catalog from back in the day we will see machetes of this type listed for sale. Another of my thoughts on my dime!!
Bret Van Sant

Bret:
The Kongsberg Gun factory have information on nearly all made KV Colts M 1914.
KV Colts made under the German are marked WaA 84
I have two factory letters. one for a KC Colt M 1914 the other for a US M 1911 from the Norwegian contract. US send 350 Colts to Norway to the Marine in 1915.50 in spread numbers. ( 400 total)
This letter is signed K. Hoyt

---------
Over to the Machetes .... again

I have read this tread with keen eye and have my opinions.
The first i will say is MY machete is found where i have written in my tread IMO.

> Why should this machete not laying there ?
> The evidence & provience is 100%

I am sure of this case-.
The Machete is 100% orginal and period for the makers mark.
The only we collector dont know yet......is :There does not seem to be any documents on the quantities produced.

A other Luftwaffe collector say this in a mail adressed me :

There are at least 4 models of the Machete:
1. Steel Crossguard painted Black;

2. Brass Crossguard and Cap painted Black;

3. Brass Crossguard and Cap unpainted.

4. Machete with Sawtooth spine and it can be in either steel or brass crossguard and cap. Also, not all machetes were ordnance marked. Toward the end of the war shortcuts were taken to save money and expedite manufacturing.

The world is "still going on" & the information we seek is out there folks Of that reason a am a Eadged Weapons Collector

Its fun !¨
Regards LH

This has been a very interesting discussion, both pros and cons. I understand everyone's viewpoints. Very good.

Fred, we know the LW M-30 drilings were issued intact in large well constructed cases containing ammo and supplies. Examples of these exist. Whether they were use on board planes is another story. No photo evidence exits of them on a plane or being removed from one, no on board storage instructions. The machetes would presumably be included in the wooded Emergency Supplies case shown in the Die Woche photo.

I have three machetes. The brass one first shown in Johnson's book, bought 25 years ago or so, another bought a year or two later and the steel one bought off a German auction about eight years ago. The steel version is AWS scales with Alcoso name next to logo running parallel to the blade and the brass ones are ACS scale with Alcoso above logo perpendicular to the blade right under the cross guard with police E/B acceptance below.

LH600, Maybe you should find out from the family if they know just how the police chief got the machete? Just because the man had the items in his possession does not mean that he could not have acquired some or all of them anytime in his career. From possibly a wide range of sources instead of at an air base at the end of the war? (I’m not saying that it happened, just presenting a possibility as you will see below.)

A case in point. I once acquired a Luger pistol and holster from a police officer I knew. He said that every once in a while he might be given something, or be able to buy an item. The pistol and holster had been given to him gratis a week or so earlier after a lady’s husband passed away. And she did not want them in her home. I kept the holster which was the wrong type for the pistol, and the Luger went to a gentlemen in Alaska that I think Joe might know (Don R)? When and how did her husband get the pistol and holster? Was it during the war? Did he buy it from somebody after the war? Who knows? So far the primary information seems to be from a gun shop owner unless I missed something, and a followup has already been done.

As for the grooves in the wood if they are cut by hand I usually don’t get all that excited because workers can make errors, or get careless. Much more interesting IMO is the wood itself. Sometimes helping to identify the maker and/or time period. Below is a small selection of some examples by various makers from an old thread (I don’t remember offhand if Coppel is represented in the group). Of all the brass handled machetes that I’ve seen to date. I think that I like the wood on John’s machete the best as being more representative - which most admittedly is a subjective evaluation on my part and via internet. (His machete with the late style trademark was also the primary focus of my earlier comment regarding a possible restarting of production.) On my “to do” list: It seems that the next time I visit my friend I’ll have to remember to look at the wood on his machete more closely.

As for the "other Luftwaffe collector's" list it’s interesting to see what he has observed. But a factory painted handle? Not from any period maker that I have seen. Whatever happened to bluing (black oxide)? What I did find very interesting was the reference to a brass handled saw back. I’ve never seen one of those. And ordnance marks (the Luftwaffe acceptance stamp)? Does he have any pictures?

Joe, I’ve seen pictures of the gun being used in recreational shooting, but like you not in an aircraft (survival) setting. And as you may or may not already know, they did not always use boxes. And I’m trying to imagine a drilling broken down into something not much longer than a folding shovel. I also seem to recall something about “survival guns” being the rational for the Luftwaffe buying the guns. But with them instead really being used to provide fresh game “for the table” at the air bases. Something else to look into if there was not enough already.

Bret, It looks like steel to me also. My friend called the catalogs “The Museum of Hysterical Arms”. If you think about it a minute everything here was imported. By a G.I., an importer/dealer, or a collector. (Everyone please note: This a general comment, and I’m thinking at moment more about certain small knives.) Where it gets really nasty is with some of these postwar creations or modified originals which are sold to guys for significant dollars. Which I understand the "Museum of Hysterical Arms” was sometimes guilty of doing. With guys who thought that they are getting something that was a legitimate period artifact. Because they were told so by the seller. And it's not something happening just now, or in the last 10 or 20 years. With some items it goes back at least into the 1950's. Oh well ........

My Best Regards to All, Fred

There is a good thread about the M-30 Drillings on the WAF. The boxes are marked M-30 Drilling and include manuals and accessories. But the only connection to survival and carrying on aircraft are the comments of Adolf Galland reported in the 1979 article on the drillings by Joe Buffer.

The time frame of police usage for the machetes would not start until late 1941 or earlier 1942, judging from the documentation I have. Expansion of the police air arm accelerated in 1943.

This is where some of the guys who were collecting or doing gun shows and buying in the 50's would help but since this thread has carried on for a time seems they have had the chance to add 2 bits if not 2 cents! I will add the that the grip screws on my example look to be steel. And the Hysterical Arms is a funny!! Like the adding the picket pin scabbard to the Krags, that was a Bannerman's type of throw together, I still look for feedback on that from sources The small little books are a good reference for photos least to me I enjoy looking at them
I'm updating Tom J. this week on a few new tags for a reference I'll throw some of this his way see if he has new thoughts or maybe some new info. Fred; do you know of anyone with period Alcoso sales book?? or maybe anyone reading this??
Bret Van Sant

Bret, there is a reprint of the Alcoso 1937 or 1939 catalog around that was done my Reddick. I believe it is from original material and shows the ACS/Scales logo on the cover.But nothing about machetes apparently.

Many good wiews here folks.
Some thing confusing me. I know for sure some here on this forum sitting on information of such types of Machetes ,but they wont post ?

Is it only me and some other here having the Machetes in collection ?

I have getting several responces of selling the Machete already

I know something about this history i cant write on forum. If i do that i get into trouble.
Hope you understand that.
Fred : I cant contact the family because of confidencial reasons.
My source is correct 100%
Im proud of this Machete like all other German edged Weapons i have.

tomorrow 2 new daggers arriwe me Then its time to make some hot coffe and find a place for them into my glascabinet

Joe, It seems that it’s a small world indeed. I knew Joe Buffer, but not nearly as well a a few friends of mine. He was a very knowledgeable guy in a lot of areas.

As for the matter at hand I will try to keep it brief. You stated earlier: “The machetes would presumably be included in the wooded Emergency Supplies case shown in the Die Woche photo”. I don’t have a problem with that. But when I was looking at the photo trying to decide if they could put one of those metal cased Luftwaffe 1941/42 dated survival Drilling M. 30’s inside. For the first time it occurred to me that it wasn’t just a supplies case.

It was a supplies case mounted on a snow sled. With tow slings attached, and a pair of snowshoes beside it. If you’ve crash landed. And your plane is sitting in field somewhere far away in deep snow. How else would you get with point A to point B - with all your gear that you need to survive?

They didn’t need (or use) sleds in the summer. You’ve got the 1942 original, and can do a much better job of examining it to see if it might be a sled or not. Or am I completely misinterpreting the image?? Best Regards, Fred

Fred, the entire point of the article was to point out how well equipped the LW was for "winter" emergencies, as besides the spade and machete, there were snow shoes and skis on the sled. The equipment was tailored to the climate.

The Buffer article was mostly hearsay and theory as to the use of the drilling. Galland told Buffer that all many types of planes were equipped with the drilling. No mention of whether the case was included.

Joe, That may well have been the case but it's too far outside my primary areas of interest to make any judgements. Like a lot of guys, Joe Buffer dealt in multiple items. With one of my friends who has his own considerable expertise, he never spoke ill of Joe, so I have to assume that he was OK at least as far as their dealings were concerned. For myself, I never spoke to him about the Drillings and just offhand don’t recall the other conversations - except for one. With the one I do remember, he was waaay ahead of the curve. And was right when so many other guys were wrong.

With so few (or none at all) photographs for many items it’s very hard sometimes to find definitive answers. But there is a DAK/tropical uniform period photograph. Very likely posed, with what looks like an uncased Drilling, an aircraft MG, and 98K rifle. All loosely stacked along with some other gear beside a Stuka. But it’s focus is more of a maintenance/housekeeping setting - so its hard to judge just what is going on. And there could be a shovel and/or machete stuffed into one of the larger bags, but none is visible.

Looking at some of the known serial numbers for the quantities of Drillings made. As compared to aircraft losses (bombers, Stukas, reconnaissance). If 1941 was going to be an indicator - supply officers had their work cut out for them very early. Unfortunately for them, 1942 was even worse. And trying to acquire replacement equipment for the men that they were responsible for must have been a very unenviable assignment. Best Regards, Fred

my father told me that as a boy during the london blitz he found a boxed drilling in the wreckage of a downed aircraft after a few days of playing with it he swaped it for a pile of comics!

Nickn2, darn that's a heck of toy for young man to play with.

Fred, the photo you describe has been posted on other sites, but it features a double barrel shotgun, not a drilling. The lack of the third barrel can be seen in the photo. Buffer's article has a photo of another tropical dressed LW man apparently removing a shotgun from a plane, but the third barrel cannot be seen if it is there. Though not germane to this thread, there is drilling discussion over on the WAF.
I am not trying to put down Joe. I never met him but talked with him a few times when called asking questions about police items. That was my assessment of his 1979 article based on the fact that it included a photo of his complete cased drilling and the summation of his conversation with Galland, but no period documentation regarding the M-30. The M-30 was the commercial drilling model XXX manufactured by J.P.Sauer & Sons and adopted by the LW.

there is a autobiographical british film ,its title escapes me , in this film set during ww2 there is a school room scene where the teacher gets all the pupils who have take guns to school to bring them to the front of the class to be collected at the end of the day .my father said that happened to him on more than one occasion

Joe, Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on the photo, and the one in the article. I’m sure it’s the same one I saw on my laptop and didn’t pay enough attention. It also lets me take the Stukas out of the equation (which were just over 20% of the total, but not materially affecting the loss ratio).

Collectors fall into different categories. Unlike yourself, I would not have put him in the category of the more serious collector/scholar. Such as Warren Odegard, and especially yourself, I don’t think he had a repository of period documentation. Best Regards, Fred

Interesting thread. Also interesting to know is that these pieces are now being reproduced and sell for only about $100.00. Not perfect repros as usual--but not too bad. Someone will hype them up a bit or use the scabbards. Better watch out for them.
IM own opinion I never was sure about the brass mounted versions and always preferred the all steel sawtooth version with the tropical type frog. Now that would bring a real premium price in minty condition.

¨Here is one for sales around 3800 US
http://www.militarycollectiblesinc.com/pictures.php?file=da10012
And Gunparts later made variant 95 US.
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=1...0&chrSuperSKU=&MC=YJ

Posting this at Tom Johnson's request:

“Dear Skipper:

I was just contacted by a collector who said I might want to read and comment on a posting by J. Wotka in a thread entitled, “Luftwaffe Survival Machete-Alcoso by LH600”. J. Wotka states, “8 0Tom didn’t know what a Police acceptance was or didn’t care when he was assembling his ‘edited’ book. Remember that many people wrote Tom’s books. I was one of them-Police chapter in Volume IV. So that kinda reduces his comment to meaningless”.

I am not really a thin-skinned person, but my only comment to Joe Wotka after reading the above is that the actual total sales of my edged weapon reference book titles recently exceeded over 125,000 copies. It appears that the vast majority of the collecting community must find my work on German edged weapons to be very meaningful! I invite Joe to compare these sales figures with those of some other authors of current reference books on militaria subjects.

The next posting by Fred Prinz on the same thread is also interesting, “I understand what you are sayi ng about Tom Johnson, and he has some things in some of his books that would not stand up to close inspection”. I would challenge Fred to apply the same close scrutiny to any reference book that is now over 25 years old and see if the total contents are void of a single error. I think one has to take any reference publication in the proper prospective. Some time ago, I read on Germandaggers.com several individuals being critical of Jim Atwood’s reference book for showing a few reproduction daggers. Gentlemen, I have to tell you, Jim Atwood’s book, when it was published in 1965, was nothing short of a masterpiece. The only other available literature on Third Reich German daggers at the time were the scarce factory sales catalogs and the small insignificant 20-25 page pamphlets which just showed various daggers and/or drawings of daggers (some even being mislabeled). The edged weapon collecting community actually was very limited in knowledge on the subject during this timeframe due to the void in the literature. Authoring a reference book on German daggers today is really “a piece of cake” due to the vast abundance of literature available on the subject to study and to reference.&n bsp; To be critical of Jim’s book, which is now over 40 years in existence, is not to understand, in my opinion, the researching, writing, and publication process.”

My thanks, Skipper, for posting the above.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

"As for Tom Johnson's comment about LW machetes only being used by the LW... Trouble is, the "LW" machete he pictured in Vol III (or was it IV?) that was shown with the Die Woche LW photo was not "LW" marked. It was the E/B brass fitting machete owned by Jerry Drake (that I later bought with the magazine). Tom didn't know what a police acceptance stamp was or didn't care when he was assembling his "edited" book. Remember that many people wrote Tom's books. I was one of them- police chapter in Vol IV. So that kind of reduces his comment to meaningless. And there was one other photo of a machete shown-a minty blued version in the frog. But the trademark and blade were never shown. It was owned by Pat Caldwell."

Skipper/Tom
My comments above were merely a statement of fact. The mark on Jerry Drake's machete was a police acceptance stamp usually seen on German police holsters, that Tom could not possibly have been expected to recognize and point out 30+ years ago, given his expertise in III Reich edged weapons. So the Drake machete was police accepted and not LW issued, though it was included with the source literature that established the use of the machete by the LW.

Taking my comments as disparaging of Tom's publications is to miss the point. We cannot all be experts across the breadth of III Reich militaria. Tom's expertise in the area of III Reich blades is unquestionable. But he had to the foresight to call upon the specific collecting expertise of others to produce a compendium of knowledge in his reference books that has not been duplicated in the field. Bradach, Reddick, Wittmann,I and many others provided chapters specific to our collecting fields. That coupled with his own researched writing, superb reference photographs and unsurpassed production standards was a recipe for success as Tom has indicated. I have my copies still and use them often.

IMO there are some 25 and/or 25 + year old books on blades that have no fakes in them. And no readily discernible (if any) factual errors. But with the books that come to mind, both foreign language and in English, they are not dealing with Third Reich era dress sidearms. And I would agree that the perfect error free dress sidearm reference book is and was a worthy goal. But given the many obstacles. Very hard if not almost impossible to attain with the sometimes limited resources at hand. Which reflects very favorably on those who undertook such a difficult challenge. Having both types of books, which have seen a fair amount of use depending on what I was interested in at the time. FP

“Also interesting to know is that these pieces are now being reproduced and sell for only about $100.00. Not perfect repros as usual--but not too bad. Someone will hype them up a bit or use the scabbards. Better watch out for them.”

I think that Houston’s crystal ball to see into the future is working just fine. Whenever there is money to be made off of the unsuspecting - bogus items seem to spring up out of nowhere to accommodate them.

What has been described in some of the advertising for the reproduction Luftwaffe machetes as: “Dark finished hardwood scales are pinned in place.” Spool about 2/3 of the way down on the attached link and look at the dark handled example. FP

Luftwaffe Machete Link

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
“Also interesting to know is that these pieces are now being reproduced and sell for only about $100.00. Not perfect repros as usual--but not too bad. Someone will hype them up a bit or use the scabbards. Better watch out for them.”

I think that Houston’s crystal ball to see into the future is working just fine. Whenever there is money to be made off of the unsuspecting - bogus items seem to spring up out of nowhere to accommodate them.

What has been described in some of the advertising for the reproduction Luftwaffe machetes as: “Dark finished hardwood scales are pinned in place.” Spool about 2/3 of the way down on the attached link and look at the dark handled example. FP

Luftwaffe Machete Link

Fred.
What about Brians`3800US Machete then ? Opinions of this ?
http://www.militarycollectible...res.php?file=da10012

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Joe, I remember the discussion and it was on a forum not yet mentioned here. From what I seemed to be finding through experimentation by using a grayscale conversion, it wasn’t steel versus brass. But brass versus aluminum. Wondering if perhaps the Luftwaffe was doing some experimentation - as seen with a quite a few other items during the time of the Third Reich?

Attached is one of the machetes just posted along with some additional reference examples to give a perspective. BTW: Instead of the aluminum Luftwaffe crossguard I used last time. Here I purposely used a piece of satin/brush finished aluminum sheet metal stock. To try and minimize the reflected light as much as was possible. Everyone can be their own judge as to what the images do or don’t show.

As for: “Why all the minty machetes? Perhaps the idea behind them. They were packed away in boxed kits to be used in emergencies. And there they remained.”

I’m OK with that to explain a number of different things that we see in collecting in general. But it still fails to explain I think why there are not a comparable (or maybe even greater) number of “minty” steel mounted Luftwaffe machetes in circulation as compared to the “minty” brass ones. Ordinarily you would think that the “new kids on the block” would be in better condition than the old issue items - that would or should have gone to the Russian front first. FP

Fred.
In the Th Johnson book page 103 where the machates is pictured i have this comments.``
---------

The Colour of the crossguard is very light on the Machete without the frog and the scabbard the LW soldier have in hands are near black.
That machete is 100% brass fittings in that orginal picture. Because the scabbard is black like you can see clearly in the picture.

If the scababrd have been made of brass , this would have the same colour.
And if the Machete in the pics has been a Steel Crossguard variant > the Crossguard have been BLACK same as the machete scabbard!

Thats my opinions. are you with me ?

All the best LH

Here is the picture in the book. ( cut picture)
I hope Thomas Johnson not "cut" my head of for this picture. He will understand for sure.

--------
In that pics you can see the difference between scabbard and the crossguard.Brass and steel.
Light & Black.
This is evidence clear as night + the history of MY machete where it came from.

I think this was the debate that Joe and Fred were talking of. I would find it hard to believe that we can say 100% if in this photo that the machete is a brass crossguard type. I want to believe it but without further photos or recoreds its not 100% sure. And... in Freds link on the bayonet page I noted that the machete with out the sawback and with the rivets on the grips the scabbard looks to have one single screw and smaller at that. I think as in my other posting here that to refer to these as"Luftwaffe machetes" is a bit of an error. maybe survival machetes or utility machetes. Bret Van Sant

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
I think this was the debate that Joe and Fred were talking of. I would find it hard to believe that we can say 100% if in this photo that the machete is a brass crossguard type. I want to believe it but without further photos or recoreds its not 100% sure. And... in Freds link on the bayonet page I noted that the machete with out the sawback and with the rivets on the grips the scabbard looks to have one single screw and smaller at that. I think as in my other posting here that to refer to these as"Luftwaffe machetes" is a bit of an error. maybe survival machetes or utility machetes. Bret Van Sant

98% agree with you Bret

As you note the "single screw" . My machete have 2 screws on the trout on top.
John Z `s Machete have one screw.But the machete he have is made later ,and that is a variations in production is my opinion.

That listed in the link up front( MC) have two screws.
If you look at the picture in TH Johnsons book ? What do you see ?

The grip and crossguard/ cap is made of brass ,-not steel.
We can discuss & discuss but i know for sure where mine came from. Im sure my machete is one and the only in Norway.
This is the first i have seen live !
If other have some ? please post some pics of it here.

Regards LH

I shot this some few minutes ago.
The same difference.

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
I think this was the debate that Joe and Fred were talking of. I would find it hard to believe that we can say 100% if in this photo that the machete is a brass crossguard type. I want to believe it but without further photos or recoreds its not 100% sure. And... in Freds link on the bayonet page I noted that the machete with out the sawback and with the rivets on the grips the scabbard looks to have one single screw and smaller at that. I think as in my other posting here that to refer to these as"Luftwaffe machetes" is a bit of an error. maybe survival machetes or utility machetes. Bret Van Sant

Bret, if it isn't brass, what is it? Fred took the position that it could be aluminum. But no aluminum hilt variations have ever been reported. Ever. The only two variations found are brass and blued steel. And you are not going to suggest to me that that machete is blued steel, are you?

The only other photo of the blade in use is the one below (severely cropped because posting size limitations) found in a book on LW equipment. Looks like blued steel to me. But of course, I don't think we can be 100% sure unless we find additional photos and records. Correct? So according to your line of thought, and Houston's I suspect, we really can't be sure of the blued steel versions. Or, if you two are sure of the blued steel versions, then I think you are irrationally discriminating again the brass version, inasmuch as the two versions have equal "documentation". You are both entitled to your opinions, but I don't see how you can have it both ways. With equal photo documentation, then they both should be called LW Buschmesser (machete) or then they are both a Survival Buschmesser.

The photo spread in the "Die Woche" magazine that appeared in Johnson's Vol III shows new equipment having been removed from the "Winterbordnotausrustung" emergency kit for the Heinkel 111. Snowshoes, shovel, machete,even the box itself appear pristine in the photos. The wood grip plates appear light colored and new. The hilt end cap matches the crossguard. The blade is without blemish save for the three wear marks from the scabbard. And for the record, the German article described the blade as a "Buschmesser". Translated that means machete.

One final comment on Fred's question about why so many nice condition brass ones are found compared to the steel version.Can we be sure that all of the Buschmessers were used for emergency equipment? The photo I posed here shows a LW NCO with flight tabs, but who knows where he is or what he is doing with the machete.And if the brass were issued earlier as emergency equipment and boxed up all nice and new, perhaps the later steel ones were put to more mundane use around the base. And, who is to say the production numbers were equal. Perhaps fewer steel versions were made than brass. The possibilities are numerous.

As you say

quote:

The possibilities are numerous.

and thats where I am at. Guess I should keep my thoughts to myself. I was glad to see the other eagle marked one in the threads. Mine was the only machete that I had ever seen before. But then I'm not in the larger collector circle of shows and in the know with most folks. I'll let the long time collectors contine the posts. Sorry to have made such a bad comment.I'll keep my thoughts on this from now on.
Bret Van Sant

Hi,
I will not comment on the specific types of machetes, or construction. I just observe that there are several types of survival-kit machetes in contemporary luftwaffe-pictures.

Here is a pic from a book by HD Kraft, - Luftwaffe fliegerbekleidung und Ausrüstung. This pic is labeled "Wustennotausrustung" ie desert emergency equipment. No mention is made to what airplane this kit was in.
I'll let the pic talk.

Close-up scan of the 2 machetes, or meat cleavers???

Was there ever a standard-issue luftwaffe-machete?

Cheers,

Hey Bret, I don't think your comment was bad. Such comments open other lines of discussion. Your police eagle marked one is similar to my two which includes the one pictured in Johnson III. We are only trying to sort out the facts from the legend that has been passed down over the years.

We have two photographs of two different styles of Buschmessers being held by LW personel. We have the text of the article that identifies the blade as equipment in the LW emergency pack. And we have a police air corp manual that identifies that emergency equipment needs to be carried in planes forced to land in snow conditions. including the description in the article. Those are the only facts we have.

Has anyone seen a Buschmesser with a LW WaA? So they used only commercially marked blades? We do have a photo of a brass hilted Buschmesser in the canvas frog that resides in a European collection.

That's all we know.

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:
Close-up scan of the 2 machetes, or meat cleavers???

Was there ever a standard-issue luftwaffe-machete?

Cheers,

Was there ever a LW accepted machete. Are those two things fixed on a hinge-pin? Could it be a wood-working tool of some kind?

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:
Are those two things fixed on a hinge-pin? Could it be a wood-working tool of some kind?

Pic is so poor quality, probably a newspaper-photo reprinted in the book so it's hard to make out any details. I can see no signs that these are hinged together, but I cannot rule it out either.

Also at p.342 in vol.3 of "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe" is a pic of what appears to be a single specimen of this meat-cleaver in another type LW survival-kit.

I thought that the discussion had settled down, but it seems to have some new life now. I have some thoughts as to some of the statements, but don’t have time at the moment to sort them out mentally.

In the meantime here are some pictures to think about. With the new addition not quite as well defined as one I used before, but it should suffice. The first shows light reflections in the Die Woche photo off things like leather gloves contrasted with the machete. It should be noted I think that while things like gloves, boots, shovel etc. show highlights. There don’t seem to be any from either the handle or the blade of the machete. And in the photo the shadows seem fairly well defined as well.

The second is LH600’s machete with the Die Woche photo.

The third is the new Die Woche photo grafted onto one I used some time back for another thread.