UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum New U-9 Pics of Bob Waitts Example

I'm still trying to get some decent pictures of Bob Waitts U-9 (featured in Wittmann's book) in mu digital collection. The example is for sale and will be on my table at the SOS.

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

Overall with Scabbard

Another Look

Obverse with Scabbard

Battleship

Nice looking dagger except I liked it better with its original patina. It's as though someone buffed it to much.

Well, nobody buffed it. And if the original makers of the dagger would have wanted the dagger to have patina they would have made them look that way. No hard feel'ns...

I Love This Stuff

Von Ryan

Von Ryan, concerning real patination and artificial patination: As I do own two unissued navies (EICKHORN and WKC) I think you are totally right on navies, the original makers did not want them patinated (personally I would NEVER clean a nice, honestly patinated one).
BUT there are a lot of other daggers (I really think about 50-60% regarding all the different models of dagger production) which were PRODUCED with artificial patination which unfortunately often enough was postwar erased by busy collectors (we knew very few during the early times of our hobby) so at least sometimes "patination" from day 0 on was a wished effect. Just my thoughts.
It is a very nice dagger you have here. I am sure it will go fast...

It looked a lot better before you cleaned it.

My understanding is that most navy fittings and scabbards were brass based and gilded. Extensive cleaning can remove the original gilding. I must say that from the pictures, this dagger looks like it has been polished to the bare brass.

That's the first time in seven short years in this hobby so far that I heard or read that many of the daggers were produced with artificial patination. Anyone know which model daggers they were or where there is any photos of them? Now I'm wondering if some of my swords and daggers are supposed to be pre-patinated and are not JohnJ

From my perspective I�m not so sure about that. I think gold plating could be considered a form of artificial patination. Depending on the alloy, a fairly wide range of colors can be seen with gold and gold plated objects. And just offhand, I don�t recall seeing a period piece using a white or brassy looking gold used to plate a dagger or sword - with the Germans seeming to favor the darker shades.

And one thing else is for certain. Once original gold plating has been polished off irreversible damage has been done. There is no going back. FP

Now ya see that, look'it all that controversy heating up!

I Love This Stuff

Von Ryan

Dear fellow collectors, there are a lot of errors, mistakes and misunderstandings concerning "gilding" of navy edged weapons and "patination" of edged weapons.
First the "gilding" of navy edged weapons of the IIIR aera (I have had several private discussions on it, first I always earned heavy oposition against my thoughts, observations and facts; after some time of studying nearly always I got totally agreement): IIIR navy nearly NEVER (let us leave the prominent navy honor daggers with damast blade out of the whole consideration!) have TRUE gilding. Honestly I have to say that up to now I did not see ANY doubtless real gilding of a IIIR navy edged weapon (I am aware that it was offered, for higher costs, in period manufacturer catalogues). What I could observe, the "gilding" effect on navies came from "freshly" cast, highly polished brass with applied protection (mostly burn-in) laquer that did hold mostly well during the period and so so up to now. Sometimes I could observe (eg. WKC navy sword with the swaz�flag etching on the blade) the using of original lightly yellow/red toned protection laquer to enhance the "gold" color effect. Fire gilding and "normal" real gilding for sure was used (and there are a lot of them to be seen) during the imperial period but, as said I could neither handle nor even see pics of one doubtless truely gilded original navy edged weapon (restriction honor daggers as above) of the IIIR period. At the best you will see my thoughts prooved on unissued pieces (there you can detect the overall protection laquer which sometimes is a relatively thick layer in virgin condition) and on pieces where the protection laquer ("gilding") partially has lifted off (best to be seen on scabbards). Take a magnifying glass and take a look at the borders of the "gilding" you will see what I mean.
So when you do clean a navy edged weapon (IIIR) too heavy or by unproper means, you do remove the protection laquer (this is why the "gilding" is so "fragile", because it IS NO gilding; true gilding by eg. electro plating would hold much much better on brass!) and the now unpotected aera can patinate as unprotected brass always patinates.

Concerning artificial "patination": Each virgin (or at least nearly all) RADleader hewer has "blackening" (=artificial patination) in a certain pebbled center panel on the scabbard. Virgin TN leader daggers have a nearly totally blackened (artificial patinated) scabbard. When you have an unissued army of the mid to late period you can find artificial patination around the crossguard eagle (same on TN edged weapons) and the scabbard pebbled panel. There are many many other examples. When you do clean such an edged weapon uncarefully (which for sure has happened extremely often) these artificial "patinatins" were removed, were erased, never coming back (artificial and true patinatin do have a different look). Naturally also during normal wear the artificial patination could be removed.
I am awaiting a storm of no nos but these are facts. Do your careful observations and examinations.
Regards

I'll be # 1. I don't agree about the Early Navy pieces having no gilting. Some of the late pieces-Yes. Many of the ones with steel scabbards and potmetal hilts have goldish colored lacquer finishes that are fragile. This results in a greenish gold colored finish.
The early Nazi Navy pieces are a different matter having a fire gilt like gold finish much like the Imperial pieces with a clear lacquer finish. Sometimes they were copper flash coated before being fire gilted and you can see this copper color coming through. The best proof of this is that you can not duplicate this high quality beautiful gold finish.The same finish can be found on minty Forestry daggers. If it was just colored lacquer it would be rather simple. No matter what kind of plating or colored lacquer you may mix up-you won't get the "right" color. Many have tried-all have failed. JMO

Houston, you might be right. As you sure have noticed, I have written "nearly" and, honestly, I havn�t seen any true gilded. Concerning the copper flash coat: I spoke several times with metallurgic skilled men (I hope this is the right expression) and they told me that brass would not need any other layer between gold and brass. there would no copper be needed. This fits to my observations that the "copper flash coat" might either be kind of tombac some seldom times was used for navy daggers (I learned it�s brass with higher copper contence) or corrosion of brass which sometimes happens partially and the "red" copper remains of the former existing brass.
Concerning the greenish gold on eg. late steel scabbards: My observations are (confirmed by the metallurgic men) that these steel scabards had a BRASS layer applied over the pure steel to prevent rusting and gain about the same "look" as the pure brass scabbards. Brass over steel (or over pot metal as it was done I think mostly with the Prinz Eugen sabre by EICKHORN) gives the greenish look contrary to the golden look of pure brass. Just my personal observations.
I admit I naturally have not seen all and we might have legit different observations. My knowledge came from my personal observations, examinations and from discussions with other collectors and metallurgig skilled men. I think that my observations are concerning at least the mass of the common IIIR navies. For sure not only the late ones. For sure at least also early ones and most of middle and late ones.
Regarding forestry daggers, the golden electrolytic oxidized aluminium is a totally other case.
Regards,

While it might or might not be considered true artificial �patination�, the Germans commonly used multistep processes to change the outward appearance of dagger fittings and other items. Only to polish parts of the applied finish off leaving the natural base metal exposed. Some examples are the aluminum dagger fittings. The bottom line (IMO) is that the net effect is the same.

But more to the point for �gilt� fittings on naval weapons: Houston's statements are not only backed up by his experience, they are backed up by period catalogs. Which list naval swords and daggers as having gold plated fittings. They also refer to gold plated scabbards. Where I might have a very minor difference of opinion is with the use of �fire gilt�. (Technical discussion: I am not at all arguing that period catalogs don�t say �fire gilt� was used for this or that. What I am suggesting is that extra heavy gold electroplating was used for certain items instead of the actual original �fire gilt� process. And the use of �fire gilt� was more of a descriptive type of language, versus an actual process. More common for period items was a �flash� or fairly thin plating sometimes only molecules thick. Thin platings which are easily worn off, which could explain the use of a copper base layer as a more secure base and to extend the more expensive gold supplies. I�ve seen later Imperial and Third Reich blades showing both electroplating techniques - with perhaps the exception of the copper layer on Imperial items.)

I�ve also seen painted finishes, and clear lacquered brass items as well. Which are sometimes hard to tell with images on the internet. But usually only take a few moments in person to make a determination one way or the other.

PS: Additional, regarding the use of copper as an underlayer. Not all brass is created equal, and some alloys might be harder to plate than others. If anyone is interested I might have some information - but I have not looked as yet. FP

Fire gilt as used by collectors is an attempt to describe the unusual beautiful color sometimes found on Army saber hilts, Forestry dagger hilts, Navy hilts, certain belt buckles and other items.
It is very probably not a correct term-but a slang word that collectors of edged weapons all understand. It really IMO does not look like real gold or gold plate seen on rings or watches or other items that are usually "yellow gold". This is a deeper, richer color-darker and a bit redish-but not much. If you have seen it -you know what I mean-and attempts to duplicate it don't seem to work.
It also is very fragile and most attempts to polish or clean it will remove it or dull it. Sudsy Ammonia however will clean it beautifully without damage. My point here is that whatever it is- IMO it is not just some type of lacquer. A photo is worth a thousand or more words-so here is an example of what I mean-this IMO just ain't lacquer

One more example

Just the thought of someone "cleaning" this off kinda gives me the sniffles-and some other feelings too.

Houston

You are right on!

Your navy looks much better in person!

CSI would be called on the murder of this
superb dagger in my opinion!

PVON

Houston, just a thought, maybe you could display your navies at the SOS. I for one would enjoy it very much.

Stephane

I would love to display my Navy collection at some point in time at the SOS but I just can't do it this year. I will have over 200 edged weapons for sale including some nice Navies. Stop by and see me.

Hi Wotan, I might be wrong but what I think you are referring to as pre-patination or artificial patinizing is actually "burnishing" used to darken and highlight different areas on some swords and daggers and that is why I was confused. I'm sure you know what burnishing is. Thanks, JohnJ

Houston, First, my compliments for some exceptionally beautiful examples of the kind of work that some of the makers in Solingen were capable of creating . (There was a guy in my local area who loved to �clean� everything. His favorite engine of destruction was a polishing wheel loaded with jewelers rouge. Fortunately for German collectors he collected U.S. items. But as I recall there was some talk in the U.S. collecting community about something involving a tree and a rope.)

I�m was very happy to see your post regarding the nature of �fire gilt� from another perspective. Sometimes I forget that, and get either a little too abstract in my focus, or fail to see other points of view. Along with some other items, I have a couple of 200 year old swords that were actually �fire gilt� with gold on brass hilts (no other options as electrical generating systems were still waiting to be invented). And I was having a �disconnect� between them and later examples that were also labeled as being �fire gilt�.

Because it�s in an uncleaned �as found� condition it might not show quite as well, but posted below is a named Imperial German Army artillery officer�s fighting saber that has very heavy gold plating. That I think might fit into the modern era definition of �fire gilt�. The saber was actually carried in the field, but the thickness and quality of the plating I think has enabled it to survive reasonably well. It also seems to have a very faint reddish cast, and I�m reasonably sure that the gold has been alloyed with copper to give it that color. And it may have also been �low temperature� heat treated (just a guess on my part as even English language sources don�t pinpoint a start date and there might be some other technical issues). With the possible combination of the two providing a significantly harder/more durable plated surface as compared to even good quality ordinary gold plating. Not �traditional� fire gilt, but a more modern possibility that might explain the use of that particular expression. FP

@JohnJ, yes, I think burnishing" and "artificial patination" is one and the same.

@Frogprince, thank you for showing this wonderful sword. Even in this not too sharp pic I think to recognize true fire gilding. Fire gilding is a very time taking, costly but tasteful and durable process as we can see in this pic.

Regards,

Wotan/FP-Yes-that's the color I am talking about-and to me it looks the same as the boar head clamshell I posted. The copper "mixed with gold" is the color. I don't really know if it is possible to mix the two but that is the color. I would submit that the only difference between the WWI type and the later WWII type is the thickness of the plate. Some WWII Navy daggers, when aged, take on this same color but without as much shine or copper color so it would seem that the plating was more yellow in color--but not just lacquer.IMO

Thank you Wotan . It�s a very detailed nicely made hilt that my pictures unfortunately do not show well. I�m think it might be part camera, but am sure it's mostly me, so I am going to be getting some expert help this spring to try and improve my picture taking abilities. Hopefully that will improve my postings.

A number of metals cam be alloyed with gold. With some for the purpose of conserving gold, and others to modify the color, or otherwise change the physical properties. Something else on the topic of color and plating that occurred to me is regarding items that have a copper base layer underneath the gold. My recollection is that the gold layer on many especially late items is fairly thin. Which I think could tend to give the gold a richer look/deeper hue. Sort of a �faux fire gilt. Has anyone else seen the same sort of thing or have input? FP

To my knowledge, true fire gilding, or feuer-vergoldung was a hazardous, gold-mercury amalgam, hot dip plating process, which imparted a bright gold, durable finish. This was an early plating process before the advent of electro-plating. It is especially striking, and reflective on the flat, polished surfaces. It was a very dangerous industrial technique for the workers, because of the mercury vapor. It was offered at a stiff price premium during the T.R., nearly doubling the price of the product.
Various types of gold colored plating compounds were much more practical and cheaper, and thus more commonly used. There are many variations of gold plating finishes on T.R. Blanke Waffen, depending on the product, the maker, and the available compounds.

As to gold colors and shades, pure gold is truely a 'yellow' metal in color. There is such a thing as 'red gold', which is 90% gold and 10% copper. Most gold coinage, made for circulation is red gold, as the copper made the coins more durable. An example of yellow gold would be a Canadian 'maple leaf' gold coin, made for saving and speculation, not circulation.

I hope that this will help clarify the discussion.

Ace (et. cie.), This is really more of a technical issue. As Houston explained: �fire gilt� to dagger collectors refers to a specific type of gold plating. No argument there.

However, I have some serious doubts that true �fire gilt� was used during the Third Reich or the late Imperial era. I�m fairly sure I posted some of these images before, but don�t recall how much of an explanation was included. While I was originally thinking of a Napoleonic era navy sword in my earlier comments - I think that this possibly slightly earlier saber might be a better example of true �fire gilt�.

A mercury/gold amalgam does not leave a smooth finish like electroplating. As the poisonous (metallic) mercury vaporizes and is burned off the gold is in the process of permanently being affixed to the metal. The molten gold being left on the steel as an uneven deposit. If the bottom picture is looked at closely - the uneven nature of the gold deposited I think is fairly clear in the image.

Something else is apparent in the image of the fire gilt and blued blade posted below. Steel becomes heat blued at give or take 509 �F (265 �C ). Because of uneven surfaces gold on fire gilt hilts/fittings was normally polished smooth after the hilt was taken from the furnace. However: Any attempt to polish the gold smooth on this blade would have undoubtedly destroyed the bluing. Which (IMO) is reasonably solid physical evidence of how true or �traditional� fire gilt was created. And what it looks like in its natural state.

My point being that while gold plating can be called anything that one cares to call it. From the time electroplating was invented, most if not almost all, of the later �fire gilt� blades/fittings should IMO be considered electroplated. Especially if the fine engraving and other small details is not coarsened with deposits. I do think, however, that the possible alternate copper/gold processes described above could conceivably have been the modern descendant of the original process.

And I do thank you for the information on gold coinage. I was not aware of the use of copper/gold alloys for coins, and was thinking of more commercial applications. FP

In French fire-gilt is called ormoulu. It was used in France during the Louis XIV, XV and Napoleon 1st periods to gilt bronze objects like statues and clocks. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

"The manufacture of true ormolu employs a process known as mercury gilding or fire gilding, in which a solution of nitrate of mercury is applied to a piece of copper, brass, or bronze, followed by the application of an amalgam of gold and mercury. The item was then exposed to extreme heat until the mercury burned off and the gold remained, adhered to the metal object. Most mercury gilders died by the age of 40 due to exposure to the harmful mercury fumes.

Actual ormolu pieces by strict definition are rare, as they were no longer produced after the 1830s because of their impractical cost and health risks."

Fire-gilt is a term also used amongst badge collector to describe a finish found on early Kriegsmarine badges. Here is an early badge from my collection with a "fire-gilt" finish. It may not be true fire-gilt, but it is the way it is called by collector.