UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Honor dagger

Dave,

I may not have expressed myself clearly in my previous submission, so I will see if I can simplify this.

Yes, I agree with you completely, the recipients of the Rohm daggers received the daggers with the inscriptions. I don’t think that they had to carry any pass or permit to bear the dagger - I think that the conditions determining eligibility for the award were established as:
i) For SA Men, continuous Membership of the SA from any time prior to 31 December, 1931 through to February, 1934;
ii) Similarly, the same conditions as above for the SS Members, or those who had transferred directly from the SA to the SS and who had maintained a continuous membership of one or the other organisations, from prior to 31 December, 1931 through to the date of the awards.
iii) The same conditions of acceptance were available to members of the HJ who had maintained a continuous membership from a date prior to 31 December, 1931, and who had transferred directly into the SA (or SS) in the period up to February, 1934.

All the above conditions are well known, I would think that the proof of eligibility would be shown in their membership cards, and the proof of weekly/monthly subscriptions paid and subsequent renewal of membership cards.

One factor which is certain, the majority of the membership would have to finance the purchase of their own daggers, and I suspect that would include those eligible for the Rohm dedication. Whether or not they would have to pay any “extra” for this etched “Honour”, I do not know. The same question arises for those who had already obtained their daggers, and were obliged to return them to have the dedication applied - although I would not be surprised if it turned out that some “handling charge” had been levied.

Concerning the “Second pattern Honour Dagger”, which I believe probably did not come into existence until after the demise of Rohm, then I suspect that there might have been a much more rigorous set of conditions to be fulfilled, before an SA or SS member became eligible for the Honour Dagger. As the SA and SS had become two totally separate organisations at this time, it is not impossible that some slightly different criteria may have been applicable between the two organisations regarding eligibility for the respective dagger.

I have noted in an SA Membership book references to the former owner which highlighted whether or not the owner possessed the SA Sports Badge (tick, in the box), or the Dienstdolch (Service Dagger) (again, tick the box). Yet it remains interesting (and perplexing) that the SA Membership book I have seen makes no reference to the possibility of carrying the Honour Dagger. (I don’t know about the SS Membership book, as I haven’t examined one).

Curiously enough, there seems to be no reference the SA (or SS) Honour Dagger in the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP, although reference to the standard Service Dagger is presented.

So the point I was actually getting to is this: The Honour Dagger in the form which we recognise it (oak leaf crossguard, panelled scabbard fittings, etc) is clearly an identifiable item, and would have been obvious when worn on the uniform.

As an Honour piece, it presumably added a status to the bearer, and may have afforded certain privileges.

Do we have any information concerning what criteria needed to be fulfilled, to allow a member the right to wear the Ehrendolch?

Did the bearer of the Honour Dagger have to carry any documentation to show that he was entitled to wear the dagger - and if so, what form was this documentation?

My reference to the booklet which was carried when wearing the Blood Order was merely an analogy - a recognisable Party decoration was being worn, the entitlement to wear it was proven by the pass book. I suspect that some similar “proof” was applicable to bearers of the Honour Dagger, although what form it would take can only be guessed at. It might have simply been a rubber stamp and signature in the SA Membership book?

So, Dave, this is why I asked the question. Any idea concerning this?

FJS

In reference to HONOR DAGGER wear, years ago I had many conversations with Ernst Muzatko (author of "COLD STEEL" and well known Austrian historian who unfortunately was killed a few years ago under questionable circumstances) and in his study he felt that Honor Daggers were distributed MAINLY by rank in the SA. If you study pictures of the period and examine those wearing honor daggers in the SA, they were usually Gruppenfuhrers or Obergruppenfuhrers only.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Yoy guys really know alot!

Love
Gailen

There goes my long time belief in the German Tooth Fairy.

Gailen

You mean this guy?

Geez Andy:
I get the pretzels and beer Ok but I'm not sure to what use you'd put to the one top center?? Well it's got strapping so maybe as a portepee!!!
Jim

Ron,

Interesting point, I too wondered if the Honour Dagger could be rank related, as I don’t believe I have seen an image of a bearer of one of these below the rank of Gruppenfuhrer. However, in my own mind I feel certain that the dagger must have some official status - and therefore, somewhere, there will be some explanation of the criteria to be met to be eligible for this dagger; and also some definition to explain who, or at what level, is entitled to wear the Chained SA Honour Dagger.

I know that the common perception is to regard it as an SA High Leader Dagger (with chains), but I have yet to see what constitutes the precise level (and above) to be regarded as “High Leader”.

There has to be a recognisable point to confirm this change in status. I appreciate that to many people my interest in these small details might be regarded as “pedantic”, but the truth is that we know so little about these pieces that we are prone to rely upon guesswork regarding them. So I think that is worth challenging guesses, to see if we can get to the root of a real answer. There must be some verifiable information out there.

Has anybody located images of the original dagger which started this thread?

FJS

quote:

Has anybody located images of the original dagger which started this thread?

OH OH .................

I think the term "high leader" is something that the people in the hobby invented.

What is being said about these daggers could also be said about the Damascus bladed swords signed with Himmler's. If my memory is correct, roughly the same number, about 15 ?, of those swords and SS Honor Daggers have turned up.

It cannot have been solely rank: By 1937, there were 16 SS Obergruppenfuhrers and 40 Gruppenfuhrers, and the numbers grew each year. Even within the elite, there was probably a selection process. Me ? I think it more a "who you know" or brown-nose thing than any defined process.

I hope you find a paper trail proof, Fred, of how it worked.

I agree with Dave and I think they were presented. Do you think Heinie might have got those free from Eickhorn? Do you think they would dare to try to charge the RFSS? If so, I think the SS might have had some funds that they may have liberated from some unfortunates-HMMMMM??
Perhaps the plain blades were for the lesser or marginal deserving individuals. It's kind of like patting you on the back while kicking you in the ---. I think Heinie would have liked doing that. Can you see the slight gleam in his eye?
Also Fred-I have seen a couple of 33 type oval TM Eickhorn Luft General's degens. Are you saying those are fake? --Please clarify this.

Dave’s idea of “Friends of Heinrich Himmler” works for me. If you look at the list of known gifts from Himmler some went to individuals who were given SS rank, but were involved in something other than direct “SS” activities and were more political in nature.

As far as “freebies" from Eickhorn is concerned that is a possibility. Although the RZM had considerable influence with later M1933 daggers which were made to more or less to its standards and price controls. And any extraordinary economic benefit to Eickhorn would have to have come from unbranded M1936 production.

Also interesting I think is information that was developed by Joe Wotka. In 1938 (and earlier) the company that had the inside track for SS approved sword blades was Krebs. And it was an appeal from Pack filed with the Reich Equalization office for Public Contracts that ultimately allowed other makers to compete. And there was “pay back” from the RFSS - with Pack also being virtually excluded with other items they formerly made.

So obviously Himmler was not above playing favorites when it came to items made for the SS. And extorting concessions from Eickhorn cannot be discounted out of hand. If they did or not I think is an unknown at moment - but is something that could be looked at in parallel with the timeline for the daggers. FP

Dave,

It is a very speculative area, and whereas I agree that it is very probable that the term “High Leader” might have been coined by collecting fraternity, it is not impossible that it also might be a potentially correct definition - at least in part of the instances.

Although this thread started with an “SS Honour Dagger”, which was authorised with the same conditions for both the SA and SS (in the Rohm period), I am of the opinion that new rules and conditions which would probably have been applied after the removal of Rohm (1934/35), and that they might well have been tightened up - or even expanded. I will treat this part of the discourse as apertaining to SS Honour Daggers only. For example, it seems unlikely that the condition of receipt of the new Honour Dagger has anything to do with the length of continuous service - because if that was so then we would be right back to the 9,900 SS men (and officers) who received the Rohm Dagger - and there are still quite a lot of these rarities to be seen. So why do we not see the second Model Honour Dagger with the same frequency (or even more so) because it lasted for a longer period than the original Rohm presentation?

As an aside to this, I would like to state that my personal belief is that considerably more than 9,900 SS Rohm Honour Daggers were awarded. The original figure was based on the assessment as of February 1934, and I rather suspect that Rohm might have “honoured” even more SS members (I would love to see the specimen he personally awarded to Himmler!) right up until the time of the Rohm putsch.

If you concur with the above, then it would seem probable that the original awards of the Rohm dedication to SA members (around 128,000 as of February, 1934) may well have increased substantially in the following four months - maybe even to twice the original estimate?

Returning to the subject of the second type Honour Dagger, I must state that I am amazed at the paucity of original documentation relating to it. I appreciate that Dave has suggested that “cronyism” may well have had some part in the offering of these items - I am sure that such “favours” occurred. Similarly, Ron W relates an account from a contact which suggests that these items were “rank related” - well I do not believe that to be the exclusive answer, but it might well be partially true - because here is another aspect to consider:-

In any militaristic organisation which has a full time paid staff, there is a regular percentage of change-over of full time members, either due to career shift, infirmity or retirement, or transfer to the reservists. I think on average this percentage runs at 12-15%. It is not improbable, that some percentage of full-time paid personnel - on the eve of retirement - were promoted up a rank level, and if applicable given the new rank status pension, and the right to an Honour Dagger to match their new status.

I do not claim this to be the absolute answer, but I think it is a possibility which deserves consideration among the rest of the considered observations.

Houston; regarding the Luft Generals Degen, I mentioned this only in the concept that recipients of the Goring dedication still had to pay for their swords. Regarding your reference to the Luft General Degens which have the small Eickhorn oval TM - are you relating to the pieces which also have the dedication displaying the “Luftfahrt” inscription, and not the later “Oberbefehlschaber der Luftwaffe” dedication? So the answer to your question is NO, I am not stating that these are fake. Maybe you misread me, or I didn’t express myself clearly, but so far I believe that most of these pieces are real.

FJS

Thanks Fred. I'm glad that is now clear.-The 33 TM types with the early inscription are authentic.

Fred,

If you ever dig up proof of any of your "possibilities", let us know.

Dave

Simply stated, the SA/SS Honour dagger was originally awarded for length of service. At what time did it become the extraordinarily rare oak leaf cross-guarded and leather-scabbarded dagger?
Frederick Stephens asks if, like the SA, the award of an Ehrendolch was indicated by a simple box with a tick in it on an SS member's file. The answer is yes.
I know the collector world has now come to refer to these ornate blades as Honour Daggers but I don't think any official SS documents have come to light that would support this nomenclature.
Derek

Derek,

There is NO support at all in period documents for the nomenclature we use on these fancy daggers that I have ever seen. I hoped I had made that clear.

The original Rohm dedication daggers were called "Ehrendolch" in the document that the SS guys got. The seniority/service needed to get one of those is known from period documents, as is the number issued. That (Ehrendolch)was the terminology at the time.

The fancier daggers came out sometime after Rohm was killed but no one has turned up any period documentation saying what they were officially called, how many were awarded, or what the criteria was.The SS ones are usually called Honor Daggers and the SA ones often called High Leader Daggers, but that is a name hung on them by collectors, not the Germans.


Dave

Not quite correct. Sorry , but the 35-41 Eickhorn catalog clearly shows the M33 "Fancy" one -without Damast blade with the title--Ehrendolch der SA or Honor Dagger of the SA.
IMO the later chained model and both models of the SS version would be the same.
IMO there is no doubt that this is the correct name for these daggers even though it would seem that only those of higher rank wore them.

Houston,
Is it possible for you to post the page you mention?
Derek

By the way, Houston,

I forgot to state that regarding those early Eickhorn TM marked Luftwaffegeneralsdegens, the trademark (in my humble opinion) should be STAMPED and not "etched".

FJS

This should be the most interesting MAX of all times. I can see it now roving bands with torches in hand searching the show for NSKK Honors. How fitting, with Halloween only weeks away. I'll bring the marshmallows.

Gailen

Yeah Gailen , find me one !!!

Preview scene from a video shot of the anticipated Great Dagger Debate at the 2007 MAX:

Love it!


Gailen

Here is the photo from the Eickhorn Catalog

2

On the next page the catalog states the Honor Dagger is for the Hohere Fuhrer--which I believe means --High Leader. So--this seems to be the answer--it was there all the time. Honor Dagger for High Leaders.

Thank you Houston for posting that page. It certainly clarifies things for me. I must search some RFSS gift lists and see if the term Hohere Fuehrer Ehrendolch pops up there.
The simple term Honour Dagger is referred to in SS documents almost generically and I am sure it describes the Himmler inscription dagger that replaced the Roehm one.
Do the SS listings below show anything interesting in terms of descriptions?
Derek

No--Nothing special about the SS dagger here. This also seems to indicate of course that the requirement for at least this Honor Dagger was not the same as the Rohms or Himmlers. Not time in service but high rank.

Having located my own copy of the "Eickhorn Kundendienst", I must confirm that the reference to the Honour Dagger, and the presumed recipient, is clearly stated as a "Higher Leader". So I think I must now concur with Houston, and Ron W, that the award does seem to be rank related.

Thus said, it still remains to find out just how the application of the "Honour Dagger", and the "Higher Leader status" was defined. And yet there is another issue - that of the chained "Honour Dagger" - is this an even "higher rank" status?

I ought to add, that the reference in the Eickhorn Catalogue relates only to the SA Honour Dagger, and the "Model 1934" version (without chains) at that. It says nothing of the SS and NSKK Honour Daggers. In fact, it is worth commenting, that the "Kundendienst" makes no other mention of either the Model 1936 SS Dagger with chains; or even the NSKK with chains ("mit kette"). It might be that these two organisations had some different, or vartiant, conditions for the award. So I do think that there is much more to be learned about these items, and the conditions governing their issue.

Beyond the above observations, there is also the mystery of the "1941" pattern Honour Daggers, with the ornated, oak leaf scabbard fittings instead of the panelled fittings. This, surely not, cannot be a modification at the whim of the manufacturer? There must be some formal record and source that proscribed these changes to the Honour Dagger?

If any one has further information, then please publish it - we are keen to know.

FJS

It is interesting to note, and it has been touched upon elsewhere on the forum, that the blade depicted in the "Eickhorn" catalog (above) is the "plain" (non-damascus) variety. If I'm not mistaken, the catalog is from 1937. It makes one wonder if the "plain" blade was the "standard" one for this dagger and the damascus blade was an added option for a very special recipient. Since there seem to be more daggers with the damascus blade that have survived, it would seem such an explanation is implausible. It does, however, raise the question as to why both blades are found on honor daggers. Could it have been there came a time when damascus was too time-consuming and expensive to produce? It would seem the damascus blades were a "luxury" of sorts that may have become in short supply or other priorities may have lowered or done away with its importance. Perhaps, too, the "plain" blades are of later manufacture, but scabbard fittings and other factors do not point to such. Perhaps the manufacture and supply of damascus was intermittent at some point.

It is also interesting to note that the plain blade shown in the catalog is not even an "honor type" in that it does not have the oak leaves at either end of the motto. This would have been a simple addition but they did not do it.
Also--the 33 type was made for quite a long time and some have the later 35-41 TM. Lots more to learn about these daggers.

Some notes on damascus blade "Honor Daggers": since we can assume that SA leaders with rank were either given or issued these daggers, I am sure that they knew in advance of the presentation or issue that they were going to get the dagger. Also, if you look at who was a Gruppenfuhrer or Obergruppenfuhrer, you will see that they either had been well up in rank in the military from WWI or had been titled "von" or prince and came from money. With this being seen, I am sure they would have ordered or requested to have a damascus blade and would have paid the money or had it given to them. This it the reason you don't see a plain blade too often in an honor dagger. As they say rank has its privileges.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Houston, You should have known that I wouldn't let this one slip through. Sorry Sir, I couldn't resist.

Here's the catalog: Eickhorn Diplo.............. show me the dagger...............

And there are more example of edged weapons shown but in fact never manufactured.

ED2

The catalog assists us, but a hands on examination usually can't fool us.

I'll pay the overnight freight & insurance both ways to examine Grumpy's dagger, and photograph the results for the members to see here on the forum.

JR--I guess you are saying the catalogs are not always right? Right--but not always wrong and right most of the time I would say. I don't think the catalog is wrong about the SA Honor Daggers --do you?

I believe that Witty did get his Buckner SA Honor right out of the weeds and even has a period photo of Buckner with the dagger and the HJ hangers that came with it. I'm not aware of an SS Honor plain blade with this kind of providence.

I am though, JR. The one Jack Angolia shows in his book came out of the woodwork many years ago and was in his collection for many many years-and never for sale. I know because a friend and I tried to buy it back in the very early 60's when he had it on display.
It later was sold to Bob Waitts and Brian Maederer after the attempted robbery at Jack's home when he sold out most of his collection.
In addition, back in the old days, in the collection of mega advanced dagger collector Robert Moses was a pristine 33 type SA Honor Dagger w/ plain blade with a tag and W/ the 35-41 TM. This dagger was MINT with all the background burnish in the cross guards and all the original lacquer. It may have been the actual one shown in the Eickhorn catalog. It is around somewhere and so is the SS one. 100% right. So--I know some of the newbies and some of the oldies who did not see this stuff and hold it in their hands like I did doubt some of the testimony from the old days. But-I was there-- I saw it--and it was right. Believe me or not but I least I have told you.

I could be wrong here but wasn't there another notorious case a few years back that revolved around the Luftwaffe Generals sword. As I remember it,the sword was catalogued by WKC but the consensus was that they had never actually made any.
Again, as I remember it, the sole recognized manufacturer of these Luftwaffe swords was Eickhorn.
Don't mean to stray off the subject but there certainly are instances of items being catalogued but never made.
Jim