UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officers Degen

pic1 The overall length is approximately 38".

pic2

pic3 I wish I could get better pictures of the SS motto for you.

pic4 This is the dedication side and the etch is first rate.

pic5 The sword knot is post war which I added.

pic6

pic7 Makers logo. I've been advised by more than one person to remove this!

Again please excuse my phototaking abilities. I had this sword for quite some time as it came with a large collection assembled years ago.

The blade is etched on one side with: "Meine Ehre Heist treue!"(Yes it does have the exclamation point)
The etch on the other side is: Fur Tapferkeitim Ostfeldzug 1942 - There is a name in script(Brant?) and below that in small letters is SS-Oberstrumbannfuhrer.
I believe this roughly translates into "For Bravery During the Eastern Campaign 1942"
The construction and etching on this sword is absolutely top notch.
There is no SS culture mark on either the guard or the scabbard.
I'm posting this for comments, opinions, theorys, etc.
Jim

Jim M, over all the degen looks good but, there are some questions. Did P.D. Lüneschloss make SS degens. The trademark has been used on postwar blades and the etch pattern on fake police and SS degens. Have you ever had it apart. I don't like taking them down but, curiosity would get me on this one.

Dale:
This is why I'm posting it. Is it obviously a fake? The answer is no. I have compared it to others and the only questionable part to me is the blade. Do we know if Luneschloss made SS degens? No because no 3rd Reich catalogue has ever surfaced for this firm to the best on my knowledge. I've had it apart before but it's been a while. Is there something in partucular I should look for?
Jim

SS Honor Swords manufactured in Solingen invariably had some form of Kulturzeichen on them somewhere. On German Police swords it was maybe 50/50 or some other percentage that had the “culture marks” present.

Fred:
THe rest of the swords appears to be comprised of Dachau parts hence no culture mark.
Additional Point: This sword exhibits definite signs of actually being worn. This is hard to fake in certain areas unless you really know what you are doing.
Jim

Jim,
Robin Lumsden's book A Collector's Guide To: The Waffen-SS. On page 56 he states on the Reichsfuhrer's Sword of Honour. The SS moto
(Meine Ehre Heist treue!), never appeared on original swords. I'm not a expert on this sword. Butthe blade could be correct because it apears to be a presentation sword. I think better pictures of the blades etching. Could get a better opinion from the forum.

Jim,

What was not really clear to me earlier was that it was a Dachau manufactured sword with a Solingen trademarked blade. If nothing else I now understand why you were advised to grind off the trademark. However, a permanent alteration like that is not something that (like yourself) I would do either. I don’t think that P.D. Luneschloss is an acknowledged maker of the German Police swords either, so I’m at a loss to explain the origin of the blade.

The Dachau made "SS Birthday Swords” - with the silver hilts made by Otto Gahr, Munich - have the ‘Kultur Zeichen’ on the various silver fittings. They were made or presented at least as late as 1942. My sense of it is that like some Solingen made SS Honor Swords (with the ‘Kultur Zeichen’ on the blades) that this trademarked presentation example would or should also have the SS marking on the blade - because it was made outside the control of the SS at Dachau.

I also like Dow’s idea of some better images of the etching (as I rediscovered to my dismay in the thread with Mark Avery’s Imperial officer’s sword ).

A mystery................

FP

German swords made by Lúneschlos, usually had the maker mark in a oval with just the PDL in the center as the trademark.Paul

I'll do my best to take better pictures of the etching tomorrow. Does anyone have any suggestions on how this might be acomplished?
BTW: Either way in my 5 short years of collecting I've never seen another sword like it nor have any of the major dealers been able to tell me that they have. Did the Luneschloss firm make high quality swords? Yes they did based upon another Prussian example I own plus others I've seen over the years.
I'll leave you all with a question to ponder. If this is a fake why would anyone go to the trouble to make just one example? No one to the best of my knowledge has seen another.
No one wants to get to the bottom of this more than I.
Jim

I have a Heer made by the PDL firm.Paul

I don't have an adequate answer as to the question of "why". I have seen multiple different one of a kind fakes of SS swords. But I have also seen legitimate period examples of different SS items that are significantly outside of what normally might be expected.

Some folks think that everything that is different is a fake by virtue of being different. From my viewpoint I think that some portion of those opinions are probably wrong or at best inconclusive. As Houston has oftentimes very correctly pointed out not everything is or was cookie cutter perfectly identical, and legitimate differences/variations are sometimes seen. And a very close examination will sometimes provide a clue to a fake - but not always. And for other examples they stay unresolved until additional information is collected or made available. And for still other items they will probably never be successfully determined as to what exactly they are.

A major plus of a forum like this is that everyone gets a look at an item. And can then point out the pluses and minuses of the various examples which deviate from standard. And sometimes (but not always) even arrive at a consensus about an item as being either good or bad.

FP

Jim, Fly me to Phoenix Saturday morning, I take the photos, buy you lunch, pound some beers and be back in time to take the "Wolf" out to dinner Saturday night !

The fittings don't appear to be Dachau ones. The runic button on a Dachau piece is thick as a brick, protrudes from the grip, and Ole Witty says that they are held in by some animal glue. What ever that is ? Gorilla spoooooge Dachau ferrules are not burnished as your's appears to be,so this is a clue as well. The hilt and grip look very nice on this degen. Check the flexibility of your blade. I've found that most of these "engraved" SS blades are what I would consider "flimsy". They are light weight and flex very easily. Everything seems to fit together good, but I too question this floral type of etched SS blade. I had a perfect Krebs solo blade that I sold before the first of the year that would have matched this piece nicely. PS, get rid of the Christmas tree orniment of a portapee and throw a real one on there. I've got a couple of those for ya. JR

PS. Jim zoom in on your sword like this so we can see what the heck you are talking about.

Jim M, as JR noted I don't think your fittings are from Dachau. Check out the photo below of a standard Dachau degen. Yours looks to be earlier. If yours had Dachau fittings I would be much more inclined to call it a fake. Were there any holes or markings on the tang.

Here is another shot of a Muller Dachau degen grip.

addl. pic
I think the name in script is Brandt.

addl pic
The tang is unmarked in any way.

addl pic:
I think you can see the billet seam here:

This is a tough one. I agree that the fittings do not appear to be the "Dachau" type. Are they magnetic? As to the blade, I would not find it impossible for "Luneschloss" or any other maker to make a blade to custom order, including one with the SS motto. The blade, if authentic, may have been added to an existing sword. That is, the blade itself may have been the presentation piece and not the entire sword. The date on the dedication is getting a little late in the period for a degen purchase, although such could have occurred. The etch may provide clues. Is it crisp and clean, especially along the edges?

Looking through all my books it seems that only Dachau made swords have this oak leaf pattern etch.

Grumpy:
I just checked and the fittings(grip etc) are magnetic. The etch is very crisp and IMO up to German sword standards. I wish my picture taking ability was better.

Dale:
This is one of the reason(oak leafs) I thought it was a Dachau piece. It's truly unfortunate that a PDL catalogue has never surfaced.

Theres one addition point I'd like to make. The sword,particularly the scabbard, show genuine signs of use. Some of these can be very subtle. I would be glad to provide a hands on examination to anyone on the Forum If you're ever in the area.

Jim

quote:

I had a perfect Krebs solo blade that I sold before the first of the year that would have matched this piece nicely.

____________________________________________________________________

Roger that JR. Thanks again buddy for that blade!

I believe that this sword of Jim's deserves more attention.

I haven't seen anything dispelling this as fake. I'm familier with the collection that this piece came from and I know that it has been packed away for nearly thirty years.

Tim,
The discussion has slowed down, and I suspect that the construction of the sword is causing at least some “head scratching” trying to figure out if it is a legitimate period item or not. Not surprising since fake or altered originals have been around for something in the neighborhood of perhaps 40 years or more, with publications discussing and illustrating fakes almost that long. One of the 30 year old published examples was a highly questionable original SA dagger that had the same type of East Front presentation for bravery.

I am NOT saying Jim’s sword is a fake. Only pointing out a reality that unfortunately confronts all collectors, but it seems most especially those who collect SS items. Besides how it was made - what I would perhaps even more seriously look at would be the circumstances around the award of the sword. It ostensibly was awarded for bravery in combat in 1942. My point here being that as I understand the situation the award of the Ehrendegen was a jealously guarded prerogative of Reichsführer der SS Heinrich Himmler. And it was his privilege alone to award Honor Swords.

Hopefully a search along that line of thought might shed some more light onto where this sword fits into the scheme of things.
FP

As the owner of this sword I want to make sure something is clear here: I have not taken a position inre. to genuiness one way or the other.
I would like to state what I do know.
This sword came out of a collection primarily assembled in Europe in the late 60s and was packed away from the early 70's until I bought it about 3 years ago.
Since this time I have discussed this sword with numerous dealers and collectors but never photographed it or posted pictures until now.
The consensus,based upon my description, is that Luneschloss never produced SS/Police swords so it has to be a post war copy.

Following are the issues that I believe need to be addressed:
*If this sword is in fact post war why aren't there any other examples? I have diligently been searching for another since I acquired this one but to no avail. I find it hard to believe that a forger would go to the trouble of creating this etch to use only once.
*The sword,and I can't stress this enough, shows signs of use particularly to the scabbard. This to me is hard to fake if you know what to look for.
*If I were to put a replacement blade on this sword it would be accepted by everyone as pre-1945 because all the other parts appear to be pre-1945.
*It has been stated before the the Luneschloss firm didn't make Police/SS swords. How can we be sure since no 3rd Reich catalogue for this firm has ever surfaced? They had the capability as evidenced by Imperial and Prussian swords produced by them.
I had started this thread in the hopes of more candor particularly on the part of the more experienced members here. Apparentely that's not going to happen.
Jim

Jim,

I have avoided comment on your sword for one simple reason. I have no proof of what I am about to say...but I will say it anyway since you ask for candor concerning this sword.

*There are other examples of this very distinctive etching style. Look on page 240-241 of Angolia's "Swords of Germany." There you will see a couple of swords with this same very distinctive oak leaf etch. They also have the equally distinctive etched initials on the ricasso that are usually associated with what have come to be called the Dachau Forge or Paul Muller swords. One of the swords on page 241 has an undistinguishable maker stamp that is not PMD or Lüneschloss (PDL). This is a big red flag for me. In fact, these pictured swords raised questions when I first saw them in the 1988 book. My question now is why is this same etch seen on SS swords by three different makers?

*The sword that you show seems to be made of original bits and pieces, but not those normally associated with the Dachau Forge. Perhaps not associated with PDL, who is not known to have made this style of sword. Another red flag. The sword itself (apart from the etched blade) appears to be made of original parts from what I can see of the photographs and I trust your judgement in describing the period wear. If you have Hannibal's sword, but it has had a couple of replacement blades and a new hilt, is it original? Is it still the sword of Hannibal?

*I suspect you are absolutly correct that if you put a Krebs blade on this sword it would be accepted as original. It might in fact be an original Krebs sword. But if this is true, why does it have a distinctively etched PDL marked blade?

*Peter Daniel Lüneschloss most certainly made edged weapons before and during the Third Reich. I have a very nice Hunting Association Cutlass with the PDL in oval marking that is as original as the Imperial swords you mention. The fact is that quite a few fakes were made in the 1960s and 1970s using his helmet marking that is seen on your sword blade. This particular marking is another red flag for me. Not so much that it is a PDL piece, but the style of marking (which might even be correct for a dagger - but that is another subject entirely) seen on your sword blade.

Jim, my gut feeling is that the sword is probably an original sword with an enhanced blade. Frankly, Paul Muller made/assembled so many swords after the war that I am unable to sort out which ones are "of the period" or are "postwar assembled." So, being associated with Dachau Forge examples is certanly not a plus IMHO. What seems to be obvious is that the same hand etched all these blades. When were they etched and when were they assembled is the real question. If they were etched at Dachau, for instance, why is this etching found on blades of other manufacture? I am afraid that my candid opinion is that this blade etching is postwar and was not done in 1942.

I hope this discussion is helpful.

George

Jim, I feel the same about your degen as ORPO. I was trying to say that but, in around about way. Sorry.
Tim, about 30 years ago is when I first remember seeing some of this pattern etched blades. They were covered in a blue wax stuff without fittings. One was for the SS Police Division. I remember seeing it because sometime later it was for sale as a complete sword.
ORPO, Looking at the monograms on page 240 and 241 I think there may be some slight difference. Could just be my eyes.

George & Dale:
I do appreciate your opinions and hope others will voice theirs. Please understand I am not
trying to defend the originality of this sword. I posted it and have stated that I honestly don't know. I suppose I could have quietly re-bladed it and no one would have been the wiser except me and my concience. BTW: Others have convinced me that the fittings are not Dachau and that my initial impression was in error.
Others have privately stated that they think it could by a one/off example made specifically as an award for someone with a PDL connection. If so they would have gotten the parts elsewhere since the didn't make this style of sword and only done the assembly and etching in house.
It is not currently nor will it be up for sale as others have asked.
We may never know the total story here but none the less it makes a drop dead display in my den!
Jim

Jim, it looks like the tang of your sword has been welded to the blade. Is it just the photo?

Börse, the knot on your beautiful degen looks to be one of the Reddick repros to me even though the runes don't touch. Is it? I don't like making negative comments but, as a moderator, I feel it's my duty.

So far all tangs I have look at have a caster's mark.

Dale:
This blade is one piece. It's just the photo and the blade is drop forged as the billet seam is very apparent. Are you referring to the line where the plating ends?
Jim

Just to throw in a few things--There are period degens with the oak leaf etch. Most have no TM. Most are the unofficial Officer type with no grip runics or the NCO type. Most are late pieces but not the very thin scabbard very late type. Many have initials on the blade and/or the pommel. Most have no tang markings. SOME will have the etch designer's initials in a very small logo of two "P's" or two small case "d's"--one opposite to the other- as a part of the etch near the riccaso. You can see this in Wittmann's SS book in a close up of a sword that was owned by Craig at the time that had an ornamental etch. Wittmann makes no mention of this in the book--but it is there--and it is a clear flag of an original. I got one of these swords from a vet's son and it is in the BW collection. JJ Gillespie also had one of these swords.

Mine came from an "out of the woodwork" source here in San Diego as well. Jim: I will be in Phoenix on Tuesday/Wednesday of next week. Let's get together and I can inspect the sword in person. Please call me.