UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS RZM TRANSITIONALS - A FULL LIST of ALL:

The SS Transitionals are a diverse group for sure - & it seems at first look, that Eickhorn had the majority of them.

I'll start this Thread off with the ones which I am aware of - and then you guys add the Others. (Examples of better Photos of any of the markings that I've shown would be greatly appreciated.)

Dave H indicated that he'd help to fill in any missing 'blanks' - as the number of SS Transitional Types is quoted as being 13 unique ones. Dave/dblmed

OK - here is the list so far

1. M7/66 SS 1938 + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword
2. 941/36/SS + Large Eickhorn Mark serrated tail
3. 941/36/SS + Large Eickhorn Mark smooth tail
4. 941/37SS + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword - "Original"
5. 941/38 SS + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword - "Original"
6. 941/39 SS + Rat squirrel
7. 1163/38 SS + FuA Helbig mark
8. 15/38 SS & JA Henckels Mark in double oval
9. 15/39 SS & JA Henckels Mark NOT in double oval
10. 1164/38 SS + David Malsch
11
12
13



I have left off the 1937 and 1938 Eickhorns without the word "Original" as there is some debate about those blades.

"I have left off the 1937 and 1938 Eickhorns without the word "Original" as ther is some debate about these blades" Dave Hohaus

Why is that Dave? I brought an example to the SOS last year just because of the questions raised by a certain inactive member here and both Gailen David and Tom Wittmann examined it at Craigs party. Both stated it is a period example of a Eickhorn transitional dagger. I'm citing them since this was done in public but several others also examined it and stated it was a good example. As a matter of fact; I think you were standing there when David and Wittmann examined it. Isn't their word that it's legit good enough??
Perhaps the smooth tailed Eickhorn Himmlers ought to be relegated to no mans land since there's some "debate" about them too.
We aren't going to start this BS up again are we??
Jim

I could be mistaken, and will have to check my records, but I'm fairly certain I pulled an Eickhorn 'original' transitional out of the woodwork (an estate sale) 7 or 8 years back and I am certain it was right.

Jonathan

May I add David Malsch 1164/38 to the list.

As requested.

Jim

I was there when you had your dagger!

And I concur that everyone you mentioned
said no problem.

PVON

I have added that one - good post!

Thanks Dieter777,

The SS RZM Transitional DAVID MALSCH 1164/38 is Beauty & a Completely (Previously) Unknown Marking, IMO.

This is the type of Information which we need to see in this Thread.

Thanks for Posting the markings!

CONGRATS! On a Really Neat SS Dagger! Dave/dblmed

You can add the Henckels "small twins" RZM 15/39 SS also.
Sorry, I dont have a pic of it.

Cheers,

Whoops, I had a bad pic here

Dave--can you update the list including the above? Thanks

Any more out there?

Cheers,

Still 2-3 out there

Dave

How are we doing in finding the 2-3 'Missing' SS RZM Transitionals?

Need ID Photo - to Add to the List. Dave/dblmed

How about Klaas?

Nope. Klass made early ones and RZM ones but no transitionals.

Dave

Here's a better pic of the Henckels

How about this one? It was in my SS dagger photo file, but I don't have a picture of the other side, and I don't recall where I got this picture. No SS on the numbering though....

Better pic of 36

I sincerely think that the word "transitional" is often misused.
Let me explain, I think that the whole concept of transitional SS EM first came from T. Wittmann in his wonderful book on SS edged weapons.
If you look at any dictionary, you'll see that the meaning of transitional is, and I quote from the Webster Dictionary, "passage from one state, stage or subject to another".
To me, a transitional SS EM, or any daggers from that matter, would mean a mixture of early and mid or late period parts.
Would an all plated type fittings, painted scabbard, aluminum eagle inlay and a
double RZM and maker marked logo be considered as transitional ?
I don't think so.
However, would a single RZM marked SS blade, with an early anodized scabbard, nickel silver hilt fittings and nickel silver eagle inlay be considered NON TRANSITIONAL, simply because it doesn't has the double mark on the blade ?
I don't think so either.
To me, any type daggers that has a mixture of both early and late material should, and is a transitional dagger, whether or not it has a double RZM/maker marked.
Just a thought !

Would anyone consider this dagger to transitional or just a late model type SS EM ?
A double marked blade could be transitional but most are NOT, especially when being made up with all late component parts.

Aside from a difference of opinion on the word "transitional", it is a great instructive thread.

Vintagetimenow, - I believe the makermarked K&M with RZM M7/29 to be from a SA blade.

Pat, I guess we can say that the transitionals in this thread are about the transitions from maker-marked (only) to RZM codes (only)...

Maybe a more appropriate title for the thread would be "Double maker marked daggers", as I also fully agree with the use of "transitional daggers" is for daggers with a mixture of early and late style production parts.

Great thread!!!

Regards,

A really great discussion here - and THAT is what the Forum is about.....Learning & Sharing.

Pat, I agree that TRANSITIONALS is a bit of a confusing misnomer. But, we are stuck with Collecting Words like ANODIZED for early scabbard finishes - which we have learned is an incorrect term. Seems like TW coined Type 1 and Type 2 - so maybe he'll have other descriptive terms for the SA / NSKK's whenever that book comes out?

It's great interesting to read the discussions related to "ORIGINAL" being etched, or not, on the Eickhorns. THAT would be a great topic for a formative 'Conclusion' at the next MAX.

We've seen a lot of SS 'Transitionals' (for lack of a better word) - but it seems that there are still 2-3 Unknowns left to find. Dave/dblmed

Hi Dave,

I didn't know that the word anodized was not correct to describe an early scabbard finish.
I learn something new everyday !

Dave:
My SS dagger w/o the word "Original" is right as rain. There is no question for me or anyone who has seen it that it is a factory produced Eickhorn transitional dagger. The absense of the word "original" remains a mystery.
However IMO if the SA transitional examples w/o "Original" are accepted then my SS example has to be accepted as well. You can't have it both ways.
This dagger will probably be making the trip to the SOS(again) in the hopes of clearing things up.
Pat "Anodizing" is a process used to color aluminum and has nothing to do with the finishing of dagger scabbards. The early scabbards are either browned(SA,NSKK) or blued(SS) which is basically the same process used with firearms.
Jim

Have you got this one for your Reference,sorry about the runes being covered,nats

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

How about such an example as the E.P&S shown here??:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/8720006325

Regards,

Trigger,

99% of people agree that the Himmler dedication is found only on Eickhorn daggers with the ealy small double oval trademark. That one is a reproduction in my opinion.

Dave

Dave,
I did not mean the dedication.
I was merely referring to the double maker mark, E.P&S + RZM 1211 code... Is that an accepted "transitional" maker mark code? I have never before seen this combo.

Regards,

Trigger,

I have seen the RZM 1211/39 SS trademark quite a few times, but never with the Pack logo.

So far the 1211 trademark is not attributed. Also, EP&S never got assigned an RZM code.

The blade with the RZM 1211 SS mark could well be real, but I think that the Pack logo plus the signature are not.

Dave

I found this Interesting Site which goes into very great detail regarding Eickhorn TM's ("Original" & Other TM's) on SS Dagger Blades as well as other Eickhorn Blades. It is well put together and Photo-Illustrated.

http://www.wardaggers.com/Eickhorn%20Maker%20Marks.htm

The more we see and are able to study - the more we can learn about our hobby. Txs, Dave/dblmed

Anybody else ? Last chance to be famous before I fill in all the blanks.

Dave

M7/66 SS 1938 + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword
15/38 SS & JA Henkels Mark in double oval
15/39 SS + Henkels twins with no surrounding ovals
15/39 SS + Ed Wusthof trident in double oval
941/36/SS + Large Eickhorn Mark serrated tail
941/36/SS + Large Eickhorn Mark smooth tail
941/37SS + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword - "Original"
941/38 SS + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword - NO word "Original
941/39 SS + Rat squirrel
1058 / 39 + PD Luneschloss mark above
1163/38 SS + FuA Helbig mark
1163/39 SS + FuA Helbig mark
1164/38 + David Malsch mark

Dave

This list is incomplete and will NEVER be considered complete by the vast majority of the collecting community. As far as I'm concerned you've got a lot of nerve in even publishing it.
This attitude is just one more reason why I rarely post here anymore.

Jim, I don't think Dave implied this would be the final list but an ongoing one. I've found it helpful to see the list of the transitional SS marks generally accepted as confirmed so far. If the list is incomplete, let's add to it to make it as complete as possible with our current discoveries.


John

John:
Oh it's complete as far as Dave is concerned. It's his list and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. I doubt if the majority of the collecting community will accept it. I'm frankly tired of going round and round with him on this subject since it's like trying to reason with a member of the flat earth society.

quote:

M7/66 SS 1938 + Eickhorn Squirrel holding sword

Does anyone have any pics of this? Are the SS-runes like on the 941/xx logo's?

Dave: Thanks for filling out the blanks!! Greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Jim can you post the marks you feel Dave left out for the rest of us. i would appreciate seeing them. thanks.

Raymond:
They've (It's really) have been posted and posted ad naseum. Do a search on Eickhorn transitional and I'm sure it will come up.
I'm really done with this

I'm most interested in the transitionals other than Eickhorn at this point, especially with pictures! Thanks, john

P.D.LUNESCMLOSS,MID-PEROD IS THAT WHAT I WOULD CALL THIS YEAR? IT IS ALL NICKLE.

Here is another one--It's in the GDC classifieds. Rare J. Schmidt & Sohne

Jim/Houston

A small clarification: By "transitional" I think this means both an RZM code or contract number, plus a maker's mark. That is what I think most collectors accept. The two directly above I have listed as RZM variations since they do not have a maker's mark.

John,
Which pictures do you want to see ?

Dave

Dave, any of the ones on list that don't have pictures listed in this thread would be helpful.
Thanks, John

Hello everyone,

what do you think about an RZM 7/8 SS.

Is this a legit maker?
I've never seen an RZM-Blade by ED.Gembruch

Show me a picture and I will tell you

Dave

It is not mine,there is one in a german forum.


Here is the link:http:// www.sammlerstuetzpunkt.de/thread.php?postid=15804#post15804

Gerd

..

I have this on

a 941/39 SS with rat squirrel

Hi Jim M,This could be the one you are waiting for,nats

http://collectortocollectormilitaria.com/

Thanks Nats:
This is just one more example of my Eickhorn SS dagger which I have concluded is in fact a scarce variation and perfectly "Original".
Let's see if Dave Hohaus in now man enough to admit he's been wrong on this all along.
Jim

Jim,

You have a rare original and I stand corrected.

Dave

With the publication of Ralf's book, we need to further 'Update'
the List of SS RZM Transitionals....

This offered me