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quote:
BTW, who was the second place bidder number 9?

Could have been me!!


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John,

I'm looking forward to seeing the fruits of your investigation Smile


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John,

Maybe Frederick could help you?

-serge-

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I hope, that I can you give more info about the Dutch Youth Dagger (in Dutch: "Stormersmes" or "Nationale Jeugdstormdolk").

An ex-NSB man, who worked in the NSB Dependance, has give the next numbers of produced daggers;
The 1th type, with the letter A: ca. 1200 - 1400 pieces.
The 2nd type, with the letter B: idem, ca. 1200 - 1400 pieces.
The 3rd type, with the letter C: 200 - 400 pieces.
So, I agree with Mr. Weinand about the three types of this dagger.

In my own collection, I have this dagger from the A-type (A541) and a C-type (C266).
For me, It's easy to compare with the other daggers, the E-bay dagger is original. In 1998, Thomas Johnson has seen my C-type at the militaria-show in Gunzenhausen (Germany) and he could tell me that it is original.
The last 13 years that I collect Third Reich daggers, I didn't see a dagger with an number 1000 or higher, but a few weeks ago, I've seen a A-type with a 1300+ number, so, the number of produced daggers could be correct.

The A-type has the correct Eickhorn logo 1935 -1941, my C-type has the 2nd variation of this logo (see Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Vol. 3, page 189, fig. K & L)
It's correct, that the C-type has no comma and no grip insert and the letter-type is different.
The dagger of the C-type is a little bit smaller and shorter, you can see that by comparing them.

That this dagger should be have an scabbard with rounded tip (one of the red flags from Herman) is not correct, it's not a HJ Fahrtenmesser...! (You find the rounded tip and the "normal" tip by Eickorn HJ Fahrtenmesser and I think only 10 - 20% has a rounded tip)
I've 2 DJ Fahrtenmesser in my own collection, and the scabbard is exactly the same one, I can put the Dutch Youth Dagger in the DJ scabbard, no problem. I think, they have simply used the DJ-scabbard...!

About the reproductions; in the late 70's/early 80's, about 100 pieces were made by Eickhorn (!!), ordered by a Dutch militaria-dealer. I've tried to find out his name and to find a repro, but at this time, I couldn't find one. I think, the owners think that they have an original.....
I've contact the Eickhorn-firma in Solingen, but the new owner don't know anything about it and they don't have any dagger/parts on stock.

I hope, to find wartime documentation about this dagger with can give the "true story".
Only the makers of the original AND the repro can tell more about them, the makers of the orignals are dead or can't remember, the maker of the reproductions seals his lips....

regards,

Edwin van Veelen
The Netherlands


PS
The originals have grey lines in the ivory-coloured plastic-grips, I heard, the repro's don't have grey lines!

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About the value: the E-bay paid 1000 BP is a normal price for this dagger.
The latest price, payed by an Dutch collector who "must" have one, is 3600 dollar for a near mint (type A) dagger!
In Holland the normal value for an near mint is about 1500 euro/2200 dollar.

PS
My daggers a not for sale at this moment...!

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Fantastic information Edwin! Do you have any pictures you can post? You could also email them to me and I can resize and post them. Thanks very much, John


John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
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I have a couple of comments to make here, as I had received several private e-mails about this Dutch HJ item, so I may as well tell everybody.

The original knives are extremely scarce. I have only ever owned one example, and I have seen and examined about six of them.

I remember seeing the copy examples come onto the market here in the UK in the 1970s. The dealer marketing them had a reputation for offering high-end questionable pieces - and on the occasion I first saw the pieces he had about four of them on his table.

The first feature which struck me was the colouring of the enamel badge in the grip. The blue sky background behind the seagull seemed to be much too light in colour. My example, and the few others that I had seen, had a much darker and richer hue of blue.

The second feature related to the form of font on the etched motto. On these copy items the motto was much crisper, and neater, than on the originals, and the shaping of the serifs appeared to be different. I showed a copy of this to a colleague - who had formerly worked as a type designer for Letraset United Kingdom, and he said that he believed he knew what the type font was, and that he would check up on it for me.

The subsequent information was that he had identified the type font, and that it was German, it was known by name as "Melior", and that it had been registered as a copyright design typeface in - 1953 !

If this is correct, then this legend in this form, cannot possibly be correct on a pre-1945 knife. I already had my doubts about this knife due to the colour of the badge in the grip. This information about the blade etching convinced me.

FJS

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Edwin,

Welcome to GDC. If you get the chance, please photograph your knives and post them here. They would add considerably to our knowledge.

Thanks
Dave

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Edwin and I are on the same page in this book. Fred, we can discuss this at the MAX Seminar program as you will be on the panel and we can put this topic among others to be discussed.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
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quote:
Melior

About the colour of the enamel insert, I think, I can give more info too.
I've a big collection of NSB and NSB-related (including Jeugdstorm) medals and pins. When I compare the insert of my A-type dagger, it's the same colored blue as the most NSB-pins. There is one smaller pin existing of the Jeugdstorm (it has the same diameter as the insert) that is clearly lighter blue. It's possible that the maker of the repro-dagger used this pin as example for the insert and therefore used the "wrong" colour blue...

I'll make some pics from both daggers AND the pins, then you can see what I mean.

Strange, that Mr. Stephens talk about an English dealer. I've only heard about a Dutch "bad dealer", who made the repro's and sell them as original with the original price...

I'll contact other longer-collecting people about it and will let you know what they say about it.

regards,

Edwin

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Ron W,

Yes, sure we can place this particular item on the back burner for deeper discussion at the MAX. I will look forward to it, and I also look forward to further information about the panel that is going to be formed to participate in the open exchanges. Hopefully we can give the MAX attendees some lively responses.

Regarding this Dutch HJ dagger, I must state that I am personally delighted that we have Mr. van Veelen offering his first-hand knowledge on this subject - and I was very pleased to see his comments about issue of the colour of the sky in the Seagull badge.

As an "outsider" I can only offer limited information about such an item - although every effort was made to confirm all the points and features that were being highlighted. I hope that Mr. van Veelen, with his better, first-hand local knowledge, is able to remove some of the mystique that surrounds these rare daggers.

FJS

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The English dealer's name (now deceased) was Barry ........


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Today was a sunny day in Holland, here some pictures.

NJS_dolk_a___c_in_schede.jpg (69.88 KB, 293 downloads)
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Out of the scabbard. Notice the heavier "body"' of the earlier A-type with insert.

NJS_dolk_a___c_uit_schede.jpg (71.65 KB, 292 downloads)
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Here some Jeugdstorm (Dutch Youth) pins and plaque.
From L to R (I'll use the Dutch name):
1) Nationale Jeugdstorm pin (NJS pin)
2) Draagteken Nationale Jeugdstorm
3) Eredraagteken NJS (1200 issued, these pins where issued to the Dutch SS too, very rare)
4) Jeugdstorm-plaquette (Issued to the relatives of NSB-man, killed in action and who where member of the NJS too. Extremely rare.
Only the small pin is light blue, the other three darker blue.
Next picture, I compare 1) and 2) with the insert of the dagger.

4_NJS_medals_and_pins.jpg (71.07 KB, 282 downloads)
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The small NJS pin and insert.

NJS_kleine_pin_naast_dolk.jpg (47.89 KB, 278 downloads)
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Here the pin with the darker blue sky. Notice the grey lines in the grip. I heard, the reproductions don't have these lines.

Feel free, to contact me if you have questions, or better, more information!

I've contact some collectors and autors, I'll be back when I get more info about these dagger.

regards,

Edwin van Veelen

NJS_speld_naast_dolk.jpg (47.46 KB, 269 downloads)
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Outstanding contribution to a little-know area of collecting. Thanks

Dave

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John, your new purchase looks better with each passing post. Edwin has shown in pictures what I was describing earlier in this thread. To those doubters, one picture is worth a thousand words and I only wish I had time to go to the bank and get mine out for photos, but time is short and the SOS is taking more of my time.
The Dutch Youth is by far the more scarce one in the series and maybe the least understood.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
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Thank You Edwin for your photos and sharing these rare items with us. Smile

To your knowledge, are all original knives have the "lines" in the grip as you have shown?

And would it be possible to see a close-up of the makers mark?

-serge-

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Serge, all the originals of these I have examined of the 1st type have had the lines in the grip. It makes the grip look like original ivory and I believe this was the intent.
The B series I would imagine is the same and, at some point in the past, I remember seeing a B series and it was exactly like the type A or the first series.
The C series doesn't have the lines as I can remember. Also, the rivits in the C series are aluminum and the ones in the A series are steel FROM MY EXPERIENCE.
This thread shows the dangers in making comments as to originality without having the piece in hand and not having the experience of handling or owning an original, just one of the dangers in computer findings as opposed to in person examinations and experiences.
Go to the shows and LOOK at every dagger you can to build a base of experience to draw on for your collecting expertise. As they say: Experience is the best teacher, especially in these relics.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
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Ron, It is true that there is no substitute for having a "hands on" inspection with comparison with a known original.
However my experience has shown me that even the "experienced" on occassion make a wrong call on an item.
I may have called this one wrong. But if I did it was not because I didn't examine every H.J. Dutch knife at all the shows. We all know that they are not "out-there" in the open. So, to suggest that I should examine every Dutch knife and "build a base of experience" before I can come to an "opinion" is IMO not realistic and not in the spirit of the forum.
My research had shown an "anomoly" in the motto in the same "A" series run. I posted that "anomoly" to show my reasoning. I also did not particularly like the "Eickhorn" logo.
I look forward to seeing the makers logos on Edwin's examples and to yours when you can dig it out. Also when John recieves his that it exibits the lines in the grip.
It will be interesting and a learning experience for me and I hope others as well.

-serge-

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Great thread. The only thing missing is a photo of the fake. Ron you have again clearly shown us what an expert on edged weapons you truly are. Who else would have as much knowledge as the collectors in the Country of origin of these rare pieces?


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Houston, your kind words are greatly appreciated. As you well know, youth daggers and edged weapons are my main area of special interest, just as yours is presentation bayonets and hunting/forestry pieces. We can never know everything, but have been able to specialize in some of the lesser known areas of the hobby that appeal to us.
The really good thing is that we all can pool our knowlege here and help others. That is the goal of this web site and, I hope, the mutual interest of us all.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
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First, thanks to all for the friendly comments!

Serge,
All the NJS daggers that I've see, incl. both in my own collection, have the grey lines.
Here the close up from the makers logo.

About the font of both daggers: I'm working on it, I hope to find more info about that type of letter.

Mr. Weinand, compliments for your good memory...! My c-type have alu rivits, the A-type steel rivits.
Only one diference: my c-type has the grey lines too. (I think, it was in the 70/80's technical not possible or to expensive to make the same grip with lines for the repro... we can be happy about that!)

About the weight of the daggers:
A-type:
Dagger 147 grams, scabbard 58 gr. = total weight 205 grams.
C-type:
Dagger 121 grams, scabbard 44 gr. = total weight 165 grams.

Principle, it's the "same story" as the HJ Fahrtenmesser: iron hilt at the early daggers, non-magnetic (I think "Zinkspritzguss") at the later produced daggers.

Detail-pics of the A- and C- serienumbers will follow asap.

I've pictures from the "funny" repro from deVries-Arnhem, they will follow.

Regards,

Edwin van Veelen

Here the motto and maker from the 1th type/A-serie.

motto_en_hersteller_A-serie.jpg (46.58 KB, 456 downloads)
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The motto and maker of the C-type.

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Here the reproduction "funny NJS dagger" marked deVries-Arnhem. These picture comes from Internet, it was presented as an original...!

The blue HJ-insert is made by an Dutch dealer (another one, sorry!) and they use it to make an Marine-HJ Fahrtenmesser (Navy HJ)... the marine-HJ used the standard HJ Fahrtenmesser!
They told me, there is an yellow one existing, maybe for an Afrikakorps HJ Fahrtenmesser...:-)

reproduction Dutch Youth "deVries-Arnhem":

jeugdstorm_kopie_devries_1.jpg (93.1 KB, 440 downloads)
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reproduction Dutch Youth dagger, reverse:

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reproduction Dutch Youth with the blue HJ-insert

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Enamel looks damaged. Pictures are very poor!

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.

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Seller description:
20 cm.(8 inch) with 11 cm.(4.125 inch) blade.

In the general style of a WWII period German youth knife, made by Eikhorn of Solingen, numbered A 317 and etched with the motto 'Moed, Eer en Trouw'.

The crossguard and pommell are steel, the grips are ivorine, inset with enameled insignia of a seabird flying over waves. The scabbard is steel with leather hanger.

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John, do you have yours yet?


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I was hoping today, but nothing. Tracking is useless, it says this for the last 5 days:

Status: Origin Post is Preparing Shipment

We have received notice that the originating post is preparing to dispatch this mail piece.

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theres on on ebay rite now for $600 and have seen these go as high as $1600 on ebay

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Finally got it, and in hand, I must say it's very impressive and I have no doubt it's real. I will bring it to the SOS show. It fills a void in my HJ collection.

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John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
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The weight is much heavier than the alum DJ knives. I'll weigh it on a digital scale soon.

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stamping

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emblem

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