UBB.threads

Dönitz´s Baton : Another Chapter

Hello All,
I´ve been holding this for too long and now I feel it´s time to brake it.
Some time ago, on May 19, 2004, a topic about Dönitz´s baton was posted at this forum by Adler26, and for those that do not remember I will post the correct link to those pages: http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4730971462/m/605107991/p/1

For very good reasons I had doubts about that baton, at the Shropshire Castle Museum, beeing the original. So, I started a long research on the internet and in early March 2005 I found this website:
http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/Letters/KarlDonitzBaton.html

I was very impressed with this letter, and even more with the picture bellow!


" Dear Mac,

I ran across an e-mail correspondence you had with a Mr. Ed Crane concerning Karl Donitz' Baton. I found the information very curious because of the following story.

My father, PFC William Lilley, was a driver for an artillery Lieutenant near the end of WWII. They arrived at Hitler's Bertchesgarden the day after it was taken. In one of the bedrooms, under a bed, they found 3 boxes. My father, the lieutenant and another GI that was present claimed a box each. The boxes actually had "#1, #2, and #3" marked on them. The box the lieutenant and the other GI took were found to be completely empty. The box my father claimed contained numerous medals and in a separate, long black box with white satin interior, a field marshal's baton was found. The inscription around the top of the baton said it was from Hitler to Karl Donitz. Both ends of the baton unscrewed and inside contained an autographed photo of Donitz.

The lieutenant ordered my father to give him the baton and other medals which he did. Upon returning to their headquarters, my father reported the incident to higher superiors to which they made the lieutenant return the medals, along with the baton, to my father.

When my father returned to the United States in late 1945, he remained in the U.S. Army. While stationed at Savannah, Georgia, in 1946, he lived above bar close to the military base and worked part-time at the bar when not on duty. One night while working in the bar, someone broke into his 1946 Ford coupe and stole the baton and the box the baton was contained in. They left all of the other medals that were with the baton. My father died in 1976 and I now have control of those medals.

I have a feeling the Donitz' Baton in England is either a copy or a hoax and the one my father had is the real one. I am attaching a copy of a newspaper clipping (it is an official US Army photograph) which has my father showing his commanding officer Donitz' baton. I am also attaching the color photo of what is purported to be Donitz' baton currently located in the UK. As you can see, they appear to be identical.

The family has been trying to locate the stolen baton for over 50 years. I am trying to ascertain if the captain mentioned by Ed Crane, Captain Hugh Williams, was actually the Lieutenant that ordered my father to give him the baton and medals. We found it very interesting that the baton was the only item taken from his car in 1946 and since my father was still in the military at the time, it would have been easy for Williams to locate him knowing how valuable the baton was.

Just thought you might want to hear this story. The baton has been a mystery until I located your e-mail correspondence with Crane.

Bill Hart
(My mom and dad divorced in 1949 and that is why I have a different last name)"

After seeing this I try to contact the Gentlemen responsable for this website, Mr.Mac Gregory, and this is the message I posted there.

" Dear Sir,

My name is Aylson Doyle and I am a Brasilian collector of III-REICH items for a very long time.

I was reading an article at Ahoy-Mac´s Web Log about the Grössadmiral Dönitz Ceremonial Baton. I found very interesting the letter of Mr.Bill Hart, the son of PFC William A. Lilley.

I have very important information about this baton and I ask you,please, to tell Mr.Bill Hart to E-Mail me at heydrich77sd@yahoo.com.br ,so we can talk about this.Of course I will keep you updated to the new information I have since I know you are interested in Naval History.

I thank you very much!

Very Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle "

In March 6, 2005 I recieved his answer, that follow bellow, on my e-mail.

"De: "Mackenzie Gregory" Adicionar endereço
Para: heydrich77sd@yahoo.com.br
Assunto: Fw: KM-GRÖSSADMIRAL KARL DÖNITZ BATON
Data: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:52:31 +1100


Aylson,

Here is a copy of my message to my Web Master, which is self
explanatory,
sorry I cannot help.

Mac..


macden@melbpc.org.au
AHOY. Mac's Web Log.
ahoy.tk-jk.net

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Fw: KM-GRÖSSADMIRAL KARL DÖNITZ BATON


TK,
I have just received this message from Aylson Doyle in Brazil.
As you know from time to time I culled my E-Mail List ( I am no
longer doing that now and I do not have Bill Hart's address,
so, I am unable to pass on this request.
But, if we publish this message on the page where we initially
printed Bill's letter. we can but hope he sees this one and gets in touch with Aylson directly. Our URL is:
http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/Letters/KarlDonitzBaton.html

You will recall that the curator at the Shropshire Castle Museum indicated that there was a prototype of Donitz's Baton made, as well as the original one they have, which was taken from the Admiral at the time of his capture.
The English Collector who now has the prototype has compared his copy
with the Museum held original, and he was approached by the Museum asking him to get in touch with me, but he never did.
Thank you Terry.
Mac."

In May 11, 2005 Mr. Bill Heart found me and sent this e-mail:


"De: "Bill Hart" Adicionar endereço
Para: heydrich77sd@yahoo.com.br
Assunto: Donitz Baton
Data: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:37:38 -0500

Aylson,

My name is Bill Hart, and I currently read an e-mail that you were
trying to
get a hold of me concerning Donitz' baton.
I am very much interested in the information you may have.
Please keep in contact.
Sincerely,
Bill Hart "


And this was my answer to his e-mail:

" Dear Mr.Bill Heart,
Thank you very much for your e-mail, I am glad that you found me!
What I have to tell you is regarding to the Cerimonial Baton belonging to KM-GRÖSSADMIRAL KARL DÖNITZ.
I am a collector of Third Reich items since I was a little boy with the age of 6 as I am now 42.
During a very important event of Militaria in Pittsburgh-Pennsylvania in 1994 I was introduced to a collector,through an American friend that happens to be one of the most important Militaria dealers in US.
This collector was exhibiting several rare items of his collection including one Cerimonial Baton that according to him was Dönitz´s ORIGINAL!
Because of this US dealer friend of mine, I had the opportunity for a very close examination and I hold that baton for at least 30 minutes and,of course,I had a long conversation to the owner. After seeing several batons and for the most serious technical reasons I found I was holding,at last,one original item.I will tell you why. The baton itself was NOT made in gold but rather silver with an excellent gold wash over an alluminun tube and covered with a high quality dark blue velvet.First I would like to say that of ALL Germans Field Marschals,Dönitz was the one who used his baton more than any other officer with this very high rank.
I am telling you this because the baton I saw showed to me the exact correct "aging" and "patina" that anyone can expect with an item like this.Furthermore the velvet shows heavy natural use and the gold wash of the eagles and the other insignias also shows the correct "aging" ! I have all technical information and they ALL matched.
Talking to this gentlemen he told me that the baton came from a "VETERAN" and he was able to buy several years ago.My dealer friend told me that this is the true story and he also said that the childrem from this veteran used to take this baton to play with friends on the street and they used to break chestnuts with it ! Can you believe that?
I was surfing on the web searching for more information regarding to those items and I found your
e-mail and picture and I was able to put this all together.I saw your picture with your father holding the Baton and I have no doubt that the Baton I saw was the original.I strongly believe that the one on that English museum is not original because ALL records from the original manufactorer never said ANYTHING about a "double" or a "twin" Baton made for Dönitz.
Besides,this baton was VERY EXPENSIVE to make ! To give you some idea,they were priced around RM 6.000 each according to the original invoice I DO HAVE !
A popular Mercedes Benz car was priced at RM 900 and a pakage with 20 cigarettes was priced at RM 0.10,the most expensive brand.That´s just to help you to understand how expensive they really were!
Furthermore the baton in England DOES NOT show age at all,and that, for obvious reasons is impossible !
After examining several pictures of both batons my conclusion is obvious as you will soon see because that collector gave me an excellent picture of it,and I have several pictures of that baton in the Museum.
However,before we go any further I understand that you still have a case full of medals that belonged to your father and was found with the baton.Some of Dönitz decorations are still missing and I ask you to send to me detailed good quality pictures of this group of decorations you have so I can identify it.
Second,I am a senior member of a Militaria Forum,known to be the best in the world and based in USA.I would like your permission to "break" this story soon and posting to this forum all the material, like your father´s picture holding the baton.I am sure they will be very interested and some may help as well,and after that I will give you all the details I do have like the exact location of that baton.I mean the full name,address and telephone of that collector and the my dealer friend as well.
Mr.Hart I strongly believe I have found your father´s baton and I hope you have a good lawer because this is a court case for sure.This baton belongs to you and in my honest opinion you have enough to prove and to win this case.That picture is incredible!
That´s all for now but I will be looking forward to hear from you as your time permits.
Very Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle"

I recieved another e-mail from Mr. Bill Heart on Sunday, May 22, 2005

"De: "Bill Hart" Adicionar endereço
Para: "reinhard heydrich"
Assunto: RE: Donitz Baton
Data: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:07:08 -0500

Mr. Doyle,
Yes, I received your e-mail but was waiting for my uncle to answer a
couple of questions I had before I responded.
When I said I had control of the other medals my father found along
with Donitz' baton, it meant I knew who had them and I contacted my uncle
(my dad's brother) to see if he could retrieve them for me. My dad allowed
one of my cousins to take the medals to a school function but before she
returned them to him he died. Therefore, I have requested the medals
be returned to me as soon as possible so I could review them and describe
them to you. Because my mother and father divorced when I was 3 years old,
and didn't have any contact with him until I was 21, I never got to see the
medals in question. However, my mother has described them to me
because my dad shipped them home to her from Germany shortly after he found them.
My mother died on March 29th of this year; however, before her death I
told her about my e-mails concerning the baton and she, again, described them to
me.
She verified that there was a picture hidden in the baton that was
autographed by Donitz. In their divorce, my father got to keep the
medals and baton.
I am very much interested in any other information you have concerning
the baton and if the information is correct, I plan to take all of the
information to my attorney to see if there is anything we might be able
to do.
From the e-mail I have received from Peter Duckers, Curator of the
Regimental Museum in England, and from the e-mails he has sent to
others, I now believe that Donitz was carrying a proto-type of the baton the day
he was arrested. I believe that the final baton found by my father to be
the finished product, which may explain why it was found where it was. I
see no reason for the baton found by my father to contain Donitz' autographed
picture inside other than to insure that the baton was his if it was
found by someone. Is there anyway the collector you mention in your e-mail
can take a picture of the baton and e-mail it to us as an attachment?
To give you a bit of background concerning myself, I am a 30 police
investigator veteran and have investigated some of the largest criminal
cases here in Texas. During my 30 year career, I was invited to, and
graduated from, the National FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, in 1986. The
"NA", as it is called, is a branch of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
where local law enforcement officers from around the world are invited
to attend their 11 week training courses. Many foreign law enforcement
officials are invited to attend the same training as I was and
therefore a network of academy graduates are at my disposal.
I only told you this to let you know that I know how to investigate
cases such as this one and may have the recourses to be able to stretch
across the globe for information.
I would very much like to continue our correspondence to see if we may
be able to find the answers to what may possibly be one of the largest
mysteries of WWII.
With regards,
Bill Hart"

After this, I sent this e-mail.


" Mr.Hart,
Thanks for your fast response.
I do understand the situation regarding to the decorations,please take your time,there´s no hurry,when you get the pictures I need you can send them to me.
Regarding to a picture of the Baton belonging to this collector,I DO HAVE IT,and a very good one including several pictures of the baton in that Britsch museum I believe it´s a fake as well as many other pictures of known fakes of this baton around!
I have a long and self explanatory file on this I´ll send it to you very shortly and I promise you that the best is about to come!
About the value of such item I tell you that,for sure,is at least over 650.000 US Dollars but other collectors may value at a full million US Dollars,that´s why I told you I hope you have a real good lawer.
It´s good to know you are a Police Officer and fully aware how to investigate this.
Also,I am very sorry to hear about the death of your mother,please accept my feelings,this is a bad time to anyone.
We´ll talk again,hope all is well with you!
Very Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle"

On Tuesday May 24, 2005 I recieved this e-mail from Mr. Heart

"De: "Bill Hart" Adicionar endereço
Para: "reinhard heydrich"
Assunto: RE: Donitz Baton
Data: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:34:04 -0500

Mr. Doyle,
Thanks for your prompt reply.
I am trying to obtain the medals my father found along with the baton
and hopefully will have them shortly. They are located in Oklahoma with a
cousin who never returned them to my father after he loaned them to
her. Unfortunately, it may be more difficult then I orginally thought
because I have never met this cousing due to the fact I was not around my
father's family for many years due to he and my mother's divorce.
I have also been in contact with the US Army Times who originally took
the photo you have seen of my father showing the baton to his commanding
officer. They may well want to do a feature story concerning the baton.
I have also contacted the newspaper in which the photo appeard along
with an article about who is in the picture and who the baton belonged to.
They are researching their archives in order to send me the original story and
photo.
In any event, if you deem it necessary, I may be reached at my home
phone
number which is: XXX-XXX-XXXX
I am usually here all day but if not, you can leave a message on my
answering service.
Thank you,

Bill Hart "

We spoke on the phone couple of times and this is the last e-mail I sent to Mr. Heart, and after that nothing but total silence.

"Mr. Hart,

How are you? It´s been a long time since the last time we spoke,and I wonder if you have any new information regarding to Dönitz baton.How was your search at the press and police department? How about the pictures of the medals?
Looking forward to hear from you as your time permits.
Very Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle"

My comments:

1-The event I saw this baton was the MAX SHOW in the year of 1994 and my dealer friend was Mr. Bill Shea; the collector that owns the baton is Mr. Paul Blatner; as far as I know since, another source tells me this baton was sold to another collector I have been trying to trace, may be in Switzerland.

2-Mr. Heart said the baton was "stollen" or "missing" in the city of Savannah, GA wich is exactly where Mr. Blatner lives, coincidence or not. The baton NEVER left Savannah since it was declared "missing".

3-All dates involved in this story is a complete match.

4-If this is true the baton at that Museum is a fake and I was right all this time.

5-Another source tells me that PFC William A. Lilley, did, IN FACT, sell the baton.

But what pictures have to say to us? Let´s see them.

The Blatner Baton :

BLATNER BATON 02

BLATNER BATON 03

BLATNER BATON 04

BLATNER BATON 05

Shropshire BATON 01

Shropshire BATON 02

Shropshire BATON 03

MAX Magazine comments !

Now take a REAL GOOD look at both Batons and see the differences in condition, details, patina and etc. to ALL pictures, and to the entire batons.
Which is the real one?
If you have any question or comments I would very much like to hearing from anyone.
Thanks,
Aylson Doyle

Alyson I held this baton in hand at the Max show. I believe that it was offerred by Hermann Historica at the time. I also have the color handout that they supplied and the information booklet on all Third Reich batons which they sold. cheers, Ryan

Aylson,
I remember seeing the baton at the max and I have the sam color photo that you show here. My thoughts are the Blatner baton is the original, given the patina and overall condition and at the time I saw it presonally I believed the same because of the looks and feel.

Fritziii

wow so wot happens now aylson .all so were did you get to with the heydrich tunic?.some one must have them.kind regards

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Alyson I held this baton in hand at the Max show. I believe that it was offerred by Hermann Historica at the time. I also have the color handout that they supplied and the information booklet on all Third Reich batons which they sold. cheers, Ryan

Hello Ryan, how are you?
Well, I am not so sure because I have been following this story since I first saw that Baton. Also I always check every auction of Hermann Historica and their sometimes "questionable" items.
I will post pictures of recent autions they offered personal items belonging to Dönitz.
By the way, this booklet you have, is that the one with the history of the GFM Batons since early German Empire made with pictures in black & White? If so, I do have it as well.
Anyway, thanks for the comments, hope all is well with you.
Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

Picture 02

Picture 03

Picture 04

Picture 05

Picture 06 This is a picture where you can see very clear his "unique" Interim Staff.

Picture 07 Another one

Dönitz personal Car Pennant 01

Dönitz personal Car Pennant 02

Pair of Dönitz shoulder insignia, John Angolia Collection.

Dönitz visor hat

quote:

Originally posted by fritziii:
Aylson,
I remember seeing the baton at the max and I have the sam color photo that you show here. My thoughts are the Blatner baton is the original, given the patina and overall condition and at the time I saw it presonally I believed the same because of the looks and feel.

Fritziii

Hello Fritziii,
Yes, I do understand. I had the same feeling at the time, however feelings can deceive you. I had a feeling that this story had to be checked out.
After all that I strongly believe that the old story about the whereabouts of this most important historical item is a complete fabrication, like in many, many other parts of III-REICH history, for political reasons or business as well. No more!
I am now full of proofs.
Thanks a lot for your interest in this story.
My Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

Dönitz autographed picture, Doyle´s Collection

Hi Aylson, glad to see you posting. It has been awhile. Yes I have the same handout that you refer to. I find it quite informative. I can not comment on whether the baton that I held those many years ago was authentic or not. I can only say that it was of the highest quality and weight. I do not remember much more about it other than the white gloves that were worn when handling it. All the best, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by judas:
wow so wot happens now aylson .all so were did you get to with the heydrich tunic?.some one must have them.kind regards

Hello Judas, how are you doing?
Believe me I am really laughing and amazed that you did not forget about the story on my original SS-Obergruppenführer black uniform belonging to Reinhard Heydrich. I certainly did not too.
I´ll probably be spending my vacation this year at Tory Island, in Ireland but I will go to Germany because people are talking, at last. When I am back I´ll may have some new information on that. I will keep you informed, like I said this game ain´t over.
Regarding to your first question, I feel I have rewritten the history of Dönitz Baton by putting this all together. As a true researcher/investigator in History, I feel there´s no space for lies anymore.
What happens next? They will have to tell this story right next time.
Always nice hearing from you !
My Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle.

Theres something strange about the first photo with the soldier holding the baton, it seems like this photo have been "edited". The ghost line all around the figure of the soldiers and no shadow in the wall. The most evident is the head of the soldier and the opening below the arm holding the baton.

I dont know it just look strange, culd this have been done back then(1945) for some security reason?

thank you Alyson
I am very glad to see you back here, pumping some fresh blood back into the somewhat dull scenario at present.
I am related to a brazillian myself, with a beautiful Elias 3 months old.

I very much look forward to further communication on these topics.
What I do find curious myself, is since 1923 Himmler had more than one uniform, more than one address, and yet only one white tunic has surfaced?, or do you have to rest hahaha
regards
Judas

PS: Also in respect to what you said that there is no more room for lies, this now that the 100 years is coming up for review within the British and others... that documents will be available for the public viewing. I am sure there are documents that will never surface. shame.
Especially with the fact that the world was fully aware of the persecutions at a very early stage.
How could they not have known with the intellegence available to all continents.

Sorry I have variated. Am looking forward to our next communication.
regards
Judas

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfederico:
Theres something strange about the first photo with the soldier holding the baton, it seems like this photo have been "edited". The ghost line all around the figure of the soldiers and no shadow in the wall. The most evident is the head of the soldier and the opening below the arm holding the baton.
I dont know it just look strange, culd this have been done back then(1945) for some security reason?

Hello Wolfederico,
Very clear that this picture is some official US Army picture. I do not know if the US Army may had security reasons to have that picture edited. That piece of information should be checked for sure, but I don´t even know where to start. May be Army Intelligence.
What is regarding to the shadows, I see a window right behind them, far left, and the lights looks placed bellow that window, left to that US Colonel, you can see a little shadow of him on that picture hanging on the wall, perhaps his ear, or part of his head. That looks consistent. Also you can see the shadow of the baton all over the shirt of that US Colonel going in the same direction of the shadow in that picture on the wall. The shadow of the finger of PFC Lilley also shows right in the US Colonel tie.
The only thing, in my opinion, that looks funny is the oversized uniform US PFC Lilley is wearing, very clear that uniform is much bigger than himself. Look at both sleeves.
By the way and regarding to the picture on the wall, sorry my ignorance, but isn´t that the US Admiral-of-the-Fleet Chester Nimitz ?
Thanks a lot for your comments and clever observations.
Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

quote:

Originally posted by judas:
thank you Alyson
I am very glad to see you back here, pumping some fresh blood back into the somewhat dull scenario at present.
I am related to a brazillian myself, with a beautiful Elias 3 months old.

I very much look forward to further communication on these topics.
What I do find curious myself, is since 1923 Himmler had more than one uniform, more than one address, and yet only one white tunic has surfaced?, or do you have to rest hahaha
regards
Judas

Hello Judas,
CONGRATULATIONS to you and your Brasilian Wife! You have a son, that´s a true blessing, he´ll be a collector real soon. Get ready, you´ll be spending a lot more money in collection!!
You have to travel to Rio and visit the city, it´s real beautiful here. Jim Modena will be here in about a month, I´ll meet him soon.
About Reichsführer-SS Himmler you are very right, he must had several uniforms which makes me wonder sometimes to what happened to those items, not only Himmler´s but many other very high ranking officers of the Reich. Sometimes when I see a picture with a lot of high rank officers I try to guess the value of all those items together these days. How much I would be willing to pay for a time machine.
Still on Himmler, not only the whereabouts of his uniforms are mistery, but the relation between him and his wife. There´s a big historical gap there. Too bad, not much to read, but interesting, lots of speculation.
Regarding to the "Classified" files to be available to the public I am afraid we´ll not see much for the most obvious reasons.
My latest area of interest is the story behind III-REICH made and fully operational UFOs.
Most fascinating stuff, but I do not have an opinion yet. I am just learning, but what´s the truth about it? What´s behind "Area 51"?
Well, thanks again for your comments.
My Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

For a better understanding on this subject I will post pictures of a couple batons that are well known repros.

Repro 02

repro 03