UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officer Candidate Sword

Thanks Houston. I had emailed you the same and found it myself. This thread has that same photo that I posted last year. A good thread at that.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/88610163/p/2

Seems what goes around comes around.

Joe,

I did not know this photo was yours and I frankly did not look closely enough at it. Now I see the blank collar tab.

With the knowledge that this fellow is a member of the Sicherheitspolizei perhaps we can figure out the sword and the Portepee in this photo. Mollo quotes Sich.Pol.u.d.SD regulations on page 33 that indicates SIPO and SD officers were to supply themselves with one sword belt and two sword knots. Since SIPO Officers were authorized to wear the SS Off. Portepee, I presume this would explain the SS Portepee this officer is wearing. Mollo also quotes 1942 "SS-Service Swords" regulations that indicate a difference between the service swords and honor swords that state honor swords will no longer be awarded because they can no longer be obtained owing to the steel quota system. #2 of that 26.6.42 order states, "There are no objections to the wearing of one's own SS Service Sword with long trousers for walking-out. by SS-Oberscharführer and above. On the other hand the wearing of Police Swords has to be discontinued." This might explain the sword the SIPO Obersturmführer is wearing.

From this, we might be able to determine several things. First, this is not a W-SS Officer but a Sicherheitspolizei Officer. Second, SIPO officers could wear the (SS?) Officer Portepee as this officer is doing. Third, it appears that SIPO officers had been in the habit of wearing Pol Off swords and this was called to a halt. This may very well be because some SIPO personnel did not have to be SS members and/or came from Police ranks. Fourth, there is a stated difference between honor swords and service swords and no more honor swords were being distributed. Fifth, personally owned service swords were authorized. Perhaps the sword in this photo is simply a variation of the personally owned service sword as Houston suggests. Perhaps this Sicherheitspolizei Officer chose to purchase this specific sword because he was not a member of the SS and he could no longer wear the Police Officer sword by this regulation.

George

George, he was an SS officer, but his record does not indicate an Ehrendegen. The earlier thread discussed this in more detail. The photo predates 1942.

FP: The grip material is wood, the fittings are nickel plated steel. The hilt is assembled the same way as a police sword or a Dachau made sword,i.e. the pommel is screwed on to the tang.

Thanks for the update! I would imagine that its been cleaned as there does not seem to be much age/patination, and from the images I could not really tell how it was made/finished. For a wall mounted sword minus the scabbard it fortunately appears to still be in an excellent state of preservation overall, which sometimes is not the case especially if there is a lot of humidity. Is there a “Kulturzeichen” present? FP

FP: There is no kulturzeichen on the hilt. And, Yes, I cleaned the hilt with Tarn-X when I first got it. Since then I have wiped it with a cotton rag about once a year.

Thanks for the tip on Tarn-X. I have never used it myself, but looking at some of the items mentioned on other forums I see different things being recommended that seem to give good results. I'll have to give it a shot on a couple of items to see how it works out.

Speaking only to the presence or absence of the Kulturzeichen - offhand I can think of a couple of IMO good reasons for a Himmler signed (presentation) sword to be so marked. Conversely, I cannot think of why the opposite should be true. Although it's possible that I'm missing something, if somebody has a viable rationale given the characteristics of the sword(?). FP

For my view I would connect this candidate swords more the SD, but I think there is also evidence on SS photos with this kinda sword. It is still a not answered question, but I am doubtfull that these are realy candidate swords.

There is an interesting picture in 'Wearing the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich', Vol. III, page 55. I shows the Class members of the SS-Junkerschule in Bad Toelz. They are all wearing the SS NCO sword rather than the SS officer Candidate sword. This would support Houston's notion that the socalled SS officer candidate sword is not a candidate sword at all but a private purchase item worn by SS oficers who were not awarded the official Ehrendegen.

I just want to response here to the reply made by Houston from the other thread (Re: "SS-OFFICER CANDIDATES") since it's already archived:

The Degen worn by the most right SS-Oscha. is indeed an SS-Unteroffizierdegen (SS-NCO Degen, the one with the drag). The photo can be viewed with more convenience due to its graciously large format via JRBM's "Wearing the Edged Weapons...", Vol.III, p. 55. The picture is, as the caption states, the first wartime class of the SS-Jschl. Toelz. I still believe that the so called SS-Bewerberdegen (SS-Officer's Candidate Degen w/ or w/o wire grip) is in my opinion designated specifically for NCO grade, i.e., ranks from SS-Unterfuehrer up to and including Sturmscharfuehrer. Why, you might ask? It's because of the photo on p. 43, again in the same JRBM's series, but in Vol. II. There's no doubt in indentifying that the Degen which has the grip covered by the SS-Oscha.'s right hand is indeed the SS-Bewerberdegen. Why the certainty? It's because if examined closely the NCO Degen has a very close distance in between the upper part of the pommel and the upper part of the D-guard curvature. It's almost as if these parts are merged when seen in the photo. With the Bewerberdegen, however, the opposite is true, i.e., the distance between the upper part of the pommel and the upper part of the D-guard is very prominent, i.e., it's as if there is a huge gap between them, again if examined via photograph. How come can I be so sure that the SS-Osca. in p., 43 is in fact holding the Bewerberdegen not the SS-Ehrendegen (i.e., the one with the SS runic button in the grip)? Easy, the SS-Ehrendegen is awarded only to officer grade ranks whom met the requirements set down by the RFSS. This fact has been confirmed via DAL as the truth if I may so bold to argue.

Another point to further muddle up this business, the term SS-NCO Degen used to describe the chapeless, wireless SS-Degen is in fact a bit of a misnomer in my view. How come? If we believe that the Bewerberdegen is indeed designated for the NCO rank then the chapeless, wireless version cannot be for the enlisted rank as well. The correct Ranggruppe designation for the SS-NCO Degen (i.e., the chapeless, wireless), I believe, is the Mannschaften which in the Waffen-SS is from Grenadier to Rottenfuehrer. If we believe this to be the case then the SS-Bewerberdegen, i.e., the SS Officer's Degen w/o the runic button falls nicely into the version used for NCO (Ranggruppe Unteroffiziere, or U.Offz.) which is from Uscha. to SturmSchaf. in the Waffen-SS.

Another point to mention is the laxness in enforcing the regulations concerning the wearing of the type of sword/Degen by any SS-Mann/U.Offz./Offiziere whom had not been awarded the SS-Ehrendegen. E.g., many, no doubt, have seen photos of SS Mann/U.Offz./Offz. wearing the Heer saber. Now if this is the case then it would be plausible to assume that many SS- Mann, U.Offz. and Offz. personels carried a sword/Degen that was a mismatched to his latest rank. However, there is another important sub-point to examine in this matter. E.g., if an enlisted man was promoted recently to become an NCO or even an officer then it might be safe to assume that he would probably still posses his SS-Mannschaftendegen and which due to various personal reasons, e.g., monetary considerations, limited wartime supplies etc., would still wear it after his promotion despite the incorrect use. After all, other SS men could wear Heer sabel regardless of rank in the SS if they were still not awarded the SS-Ehrendegen. Going back to the photo on p. 43 about the SS-Oscha. holding an SS-Bewerberdegen, if as stipulated in this thread by Houston that the Bewerberdegen is in fact for officer only then why the Oscha. in the photo would be allowed to own an officer's Degen? Isn't it easier to believe the absence of reprimand for an officer who would still wear his enlisted or NCO sidearm then to believe if an enlisted or NCO man carried an officer sidearm? If an SS officer desired to carry the SS-Bewerberdegen (SS Officer's Candidate Degen) as portrayed by the SIPO Ostuf. in this thread, then it woulnd't be so much of a tresspass against the regulation as the Ostuf. would not be "stepping any toes" if you will, in wearing such Degen. On the other hand, if the SIPO man were an enlisted personel, I'm sure such transgression, minor as it may be to the non-pedantic types during that era, would invite unkindly reproof from the higher ranked personels, or even possibly the Reichsheini himself, as the such weapon was not yet "earned" per se. In summary, if we would still want to adhere to the idea that the SS Officer's Candidate Degen is in fact for officer grade rank, it is important to consider this last remark at least until such primary source surfaces to claim the truth.

Sendjaja, I'm not sure that I am following your line of reasoning correctly or not, but please permit me to make a few observations: Photographs like that presented by Joe Wotka leave no doubt what model sword is being used. For a great many others there is some ambiguity as to what it is and it has to be guesstimated, with another large number being unidentified other than it looks like some kind of SS Degen style sword. My point being that with all of this discussion the unquestionable photographic record is still minimal.

The SS-Junkerschulen were essentially Infantry Officer Schools with some indoctrination and a few other things thrown into the mix. As such they followed for the most part German Army traditions. Those ranks were arranged from enlisted men, to junior NCO's, senior NCO's (Unteroffizer mit Portepee) and then officers. Swords for Unteroffizer mit Portepee were provided as an item of issue. Cavalry enlisted and junior NCO's were permitted swords. But for the infantry only senior NCO's and officers were permitted to carry them as a badge of rank. Junior NCO's and enlisted infantry were not permitted to carry swords.

That is consistent with information from the earlier thread which stated that SS officers-in-training were not officers (yet) and held NCO ranks as they progressed toward becoming officers. If they failed in school they normally were permitted to keep their NCO status. That would explain why NCO swords are seen with personnel in training at the schools. With the war, the amount of time for training decreased, but W/SS* candidates still had to spend two months active service with a unit after the school before they actually became officers.

As for Manfred's observation on the "Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen" (PPOD for the sake of simplicity) he is IMO correct and at least some were very clearly privately purchased. TW's SS book shows a number of "custom" manufactured examples of the PPOD which are indicative of private purchases not government issue.

German Police Officers had to purchase their degens and all SS personnel had to purchase their own daggers. The only "freebies" (as far as I know) were the Honor Swords themselves that were awarded directly from Himmler. What still remains to be determined is how the non Honor swords were purchased/distributed and through what channels.

Regards, FP

* IMO the overwhelming majority of W/SS officers did not have Honor Swords.

FP,

First, I really do apologize for the size of the following two images below, but I do feel their large size is very important in the analysis.

The first photograph (pls. see arrow) leaves no doubt that the SS-Oschaf. in the far most right of the front row carries the SS-Mannschaftendegen - the non-officer pommel type.



The second image is an SS-Oschaf. holding his SS Degen with the officer's pommel. Again, in this photo, I also have no doubt that the Degen is an officer's type. Whether it is with or without the SS runic button...I don't know. However, a pretty good guess would be that it's the one sans the runic button considering that his rank would preclude him from being awarded the SS-Ehrendegen. If the discussed Degen as Houston mentioned was in fact for officer only, why, then, this SS-Oschaf. was allowed to carry one? Is it because he anticipated a promotion to an officer's rank? It doesn't still well with me! This can be remedied, however, if there's a regulation stating that those candidates who had passed the final examination, thus completing the SS-Jschl. course and who would then be allowed to wear officer's cord on his hat and collar tab, could in fact also carry the SS-Fuehrerdegen - the officer's type w/o the runic button.



Regards,
SD

I don't believe that the sword shown in that group picture above is an officers sword. The picture in my book seems a little clearer but does not show any 'silver' drag scabbard tip that officers swords have as a rule.
In the picture above the Oscha is most likely showing an 'officer candidate' sword. It is possible that this was a temporary loaner provided by the films studio for posing.

Sendjaja, Large is good. Seriously. Then I don’t need to use my reading glasses.

I think that I understand what you are saying. Which is that there are three categories of SS swords besides the officer’s sword with the SS emblem in the grip:
1) The SS-Bewerberdegen (SS-Officer's Candidate Degen w/ or w/o wire grip). aka: "Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen".
2) An SS-Unteroffizierdegen (SS-NCO Degen)
3) And a SS-Mannschaftendegen (SS Enlisted Man’s Degen)

And that in the first picture an Oberscharführer is carrying a SS-”Mannschaftendegen”. And in the second picture one has a SS-”Bewerberdegen”. I am not the expert in the area of SS ranks - but for the Kreigjunker-Lehrgänge I believe that in the SS-Junkerschulen the Führer-Berwerber started as SS-Junker, to Standartenjunker, and finally Standartenoberjunker. But we won’t use those terms to not further complicate what is being discussed.

In the first picture a senior (grade) NCO has what I was talking about as SS officers-in-training progressed up through the NCO ranks. Senior grade NCO’s in the German Army were issued rather plain (no external ornamentation) “P” guard sabers for on duty wear. Here we have at least one degen with a plain pommel and none of the visible scabbards has nickel plated scabbard bottom mounts. In concept the same kind of sword carried on duty by senior German Army NCO’s ie: generally conforming to the officer’s pattern but not as ornate. (My earlier point was that enlisted cavalrymen might be seen with sabers, but not infantry soldiers, so where did the idea of a “SS-Mannschaftendegen” come from?)

The second picture is intersting, but I think also raises some questions. The caption states that he is an SS-Oberscharführer der Reserve. Reserve officer candiates attended an abbreviated officer’s school and I don’t think were eligbile as a rule to be awarded the “Honor Sword” like the regular SS-Junkerschulen graduates. I don’t know the circumstnaces regarding this picture, but I think that it’s interesting that his hand (IMO) intentionally obscures the grip - but have to admit that I’m just guessing. If the individual in this studio portrait already knew he could never acquire an “Honor Sword” he may have earlier purchased the “SS-Bewerberdegen” (Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen) in anticipation of his being commisioned. Or maybe he just borrowed a sword as Manfred suggested??

Perhaps there is some information or better pictures out there. But IMHO the evidence to make your case is not in front of us.

Regards, FP

On this picture the fourth NCO in the front line up is (conspicuously) not wearing a sword. Wonder why? Was the guy a cheepskate or just in deep poverty and couldn't afford one, or was he waiting for the handout from Himmler after graduation?

I could accept Manfreds explaination of a studio prop as this was quite common the world over for military personnel when posing in uniform. However the gentleman above is actualy wearing the hanger and I doubt if this would be the case if he was just handed a sword to pose with.
Jim

As I understand it is that ultimately every SS officer in good standing was supposed to be awarded the Ehrendegen but Himmler fell behind because of other priorities. Is it possible the the designation of Bewerber was intended to describe candidacy for the honor sword rather than for officers rank? Since there were many SS members who entered the SS as officers directly and without going through SS-Schule or through the enlisted ranks there had to be a suitable sword for those folks.

You will notice some other odd things about this particular group of NCOs shown in the photograph. For instance, several are wearing Field Caps (crushers) with a cloth visor and the two on the right are wearing dual cuff bands. The NCO on the left (all sporting the same rank BTW) appears to have a P guard sword instead of an SS Degen. This photo seems to raise more questions than it answers.

FP,

If that's the case, as per Manfred's suggestion, how do we know that the SIPO Ostuf. pictured in this thread was really awarded the Degen he's holding and not used it as a mere prop? What the SIPO photograph tells me is that, yes...this is an officer of the SS, and yes...he's holding a Fuehrerdegen type w/o the grip emblem...and that is it. The photo tells us nothing as to when he procured his Degen. Whether it's from his NCO days which I'd like to call the "carry-over effect", mind you , or a prop, or a genuine awarded Degen comensurately awarded due to to his officer status...this, I don't know!

The bottom line is this, just as my assessment over the photos I presented above, could draw endless speculations as to why the so and so SS man had the type of Degen he had, Houston's suggestion could also produce the same effect. We don't know the background of the SIPO Ostuf. detailed enough to draw a conclusion that the Degen, indeed, was awarded to him because he's just been promoted to an officer rank. To further emphasize my point, pls. cf. the "laxness point" I mentioned in my first post above, e.g., an SS Offz. carrying his NCO Degen or a Heer style Saebel, to further polute this matter.

Just to throw you another curve ball, Guenther Degen posing in the Jschl. grad. photo above is still wearing his NCO Degen (the chapeless, wireless type) although his collar tab rank already indicates he's an officer (an Ustuf.).

sdesember etal:
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my above post so I'll try again. Why would this guy be posing with a studio prop sword and be wearing a sword hanger?? That's either his sword or he (unlikely) wanted his picture taken with a different one!! If he's wearing a sword hanger isn't it logical to conclude he showed up for his portrait with a sword!! Isn't it also likely that the photographer suggested that he take his sword off the hanger so he could pose as shown?
Jim

Sendjajas picture is for my view one photo from the Junkerschule Tölz. Visible from the rune T collar tab, the double cufftitle would make then also sence.

... dem besten Schützen des SS-Junkerlehrganges 1940

Robert

Discussion Tie Breakers??

In Tom Wittmann’s SS book on page # 417 we have an SS officer’s sword - minus the SS runes in the grip - with a Damascus blade and the name of Karl Rüggeberg on the blade. It states that he was a 1st Lieutenant (U.S. equivalent) that did not receive the SS-Ehrendegen. Obviously a private purchase, not an issue sword.

Pages # 405, 410, and 414 show the same model sword with owner’s initials present. Page # 409 shows another with initials that also has an etched motto on the blade. Page # 415 shows another Damascus blade with a name present, and it states that the owner was a Major that did not qualify for the SS-Ehrendegen. All private purchases, with the two named swords going to individuals who were not awarded the SS-Ehrendegen.

If the photographs are ambiguous and can be interpreted multiple ways, the above cited swords are not, unless they are all fakes which I don’t think is the case.

As I stated earlier it is my belief that individually customized/owned swords like the ones mentioned above were purchased not presented. I do not recall seeing earlier references to the SS officer’s sword (minus the SS runes in the grip) being “awarded” - especially in the context of the SS-Ehrendegen being awarded.

Lastly: I don’t know many of the specific practices that were followed inside the SS-Junkerschulen. But from my experience in the U.S. military there were temporary promotions from the ranks, including the use of badges of rank, for use while in training for those personnel who assisted the training cadre. Those distinctions were temporary lasting only until the trainees graduated. Also, I think that I mentioned before in one of the threads, that SS-Junkerschulen graduates were posted to units for at least two months before actually being formally promoted to 2nd Lieutenants - and becoming eligible for the award of the SS-Ehrendegen. But only after they were approved for promotion by their commanding officers. My point being that without knowing more facts informally posed pictures of trainees like the preceding can be as open to interpretation as much or possibly even more than formal ones in a studio.

PS: The “Bottom Line” IMO is that at least some of the SS officer’s swords (minus the SS runes in the grip) were private purchases by SS officers who were not awarded the SS-Ehrendegen.

FP

Hear, hear... for the bottom line! But... it still doesn't mean that these Degen can be termed an Officer's Degen like Houston suggested as its use can also be interpreted for the Officer's Candidate too considering that speculations and arguments can still be made from the selected photographic evidence.

Gentlemen,

I can agree that this type of sword(s) without the SS grip insignia is/are original swords that was/were made and worn during the NS Zeit. I can agree they could be private purchase swords. I can agree they certainly seem to be associated with the Junkerschule in photos quite often. I can agree they are not awarded SS-Ehrendegen.

How then can the sword that started this thread be proper? It has the blade of an Ehrendegen awarded by the RFSS. It has the hilt without the SS grip insignia. Please tell me how this is possible if this particular sword is original and of the period?

I guess that I need to stop beating about the bush and plainly state that I do not believe this particular sword is proper. Either the blade is a reproduction (as Tom Johnson indicates in his list) or it has been assembled from parts.

George

ORPO: Where does it say that these blades were awards by the RFSS?. The motto is standard SS and the Himmler facsimile signature is relatively common and well known to any member of the SS. There is no indication of any special event with a personal Himmler dedication like the one on Himmler daggers.

There have been a number opinions and rationales given why or why not this sword could be viable. And after it is all said and done it is still a beautiful collectable and (considering everything) well worth the expenditure. Would I pay top dollar (whatever that means) for this sword? Hell no. Mainly because I haven't paid top dollar (or anything near that) for any item in my collection.
Over the years I have watched many items in the questionable or out-of-the-ordinary category being discussed and critiqued on this forum with conclusions based mainly on faith. My own personal conclusion is that anything is possible and I'd leave it at that.

George, I understand where you are coming from, but I think that it might help first if we actually had a legitimate period German name for the sword. As you already know during Imperial times the government property dress swords for senior ranking infantry Unteroffizier mit Portepee were called “Infanterie-Offizierdegen”. And Third Reich era government issue Luftwaffe “Fleigeroffizierdolch” carried by later era Unteroffizier mit Portepee retained the same name and German Army ranking NCO’s carried their unornamented government issue sabers. They did not change sword or dagger names to conform to end users being enlisted men.

There is period physical evidence that the SS Degens with runes were called “Ehrendegens des Reichsführers SS”. Using or creating German sounding names like: “SS-Mannschaftendegen”, “SS-Unteroffizierdegen”, or “SS-Bewerberdegen” can be extremely misleading if they were not used during the time of the Third Reich and/or were called something else.

My point being that especially with some of the better made fakes sometimes it is it is the small details or some other seemingly non-related factor which gives them away as fakes. I am not prejudging Manfred’s sword - only pointing out that some otherwise very good fakes have been discovered by inscriptions with poor German grammar or something else that does not make sense. And there are some questions about why the sword is in the configuration that it is in - especially since the issue of what it really is has a bearing on that configuration.

Photographs: I have an excellent photograph of an SS soldier in training with a Czech VZ24 rifle and bayonet. Does that mean that Czech weapons were for a time standard issue for some SS soldiers? In this case yes, because there are a number of other photographs of Czech weapons being used in combat operations in various theaters. I have another photograph of an SS soldier in Russia using a Russian Tokarev rifle. Does that mean that they were standard SS issue at one time? No, the Tokarev’s were used temporarily as field expedients and disposed of when they quit working or could no longer get ammunition.

My point here being that without some kind of corroboration a few photographs (and most especially blurred/fuzzy ones) don’t prove that an item was standard issue for a specific class of individuals. Only that on the day that the picture was taken that a specific item may have been used.

Best Regards, FP

sdesember--The SS Officer's sword knot was also worn by senior NCO's but it is still an Officer's knot--correctimundo?

mvogel,

Please understand that I am not trying to beat you up regarding your sword. It belongs to you and you may think it is whatever you wish to. I am also aware that you did not ask for an opinion on this sword when you showed it. That is why I did not directly challenge its authenticity at first. But, I think your sword confuses the issue of what these swords are, or are not, after several days of discussion on that specific topic.

You say that you bought the sword because it languished at a gun show and nobody else bought it. You bought it because you thought it was beautiful and you are happy with it. You also say that you added the scabbard and Portepee. This all confuses the issue of this class of SS Degen.

My opinion (well understood that you did not ask for my opinion) is that your sword is not a proper sword to represent the class of SS swords that are now under discussion. The blade is of a type that Tom Johnson deems to be postwar and sells as such for much more money than you paid for your blade and hilt. The blade is of a type that is indeed awarded by the RFSS because of the signature. You do not see SS daggers with Himmler's signature unless they were awarded by him. Most notably the SS daggers that replaced the Röhm awarded daggers that all have the SS motto on the other side of the blade just as your sword blade does. These RFSS awarded SS daggers have no award dates but do have Himmler's signature. I do not believe that Heinrich Himmler would have allowed a facimilie of his signature on a sword or Dagger unless he approved the award of such an edged weapon. Himmler put his facimilie signature on daggers, SS Honor Rings, SS sports awards, SS plates, etc and they were all awarded in the name of the RFSS.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I simply believe that it confuses the reader of this thread to believe that your specific sword is simply another variation of the class of swords under discussion without a challenge.

I have now made my point (and hopefully not any enemies) and I am done.

George

IMO George is correct in everything that he has said. Confusion is something we certainly don't need or want.

Houston: You're exactly correct! But... those Senior NCO's were most likely Jschls. candidates who had passed his Stanob. examination and were thus entitled to wear the officer cord and piping on his Dienstmuetze and Kragenspiegel respectively. And from the photos I posted above they wore the officer's portepee w/ the NCO Degen, not the officer's candidate's.

I agree that the senior NCO's wore the NCO degen and not the private purchase Officer degen --- but did they all pass the tests you speak of???--I ask this because I have never seen a photo of the SS NCO degen in wear that did not have the Officer knot on it. Perhaps this class of NCO was the only class entitled to wear the NCO degen--and with the Officer knot. I know we apparently have been unable to locate exact regulations for the wear of the SS NCO degen and this has been discussed in other threads==perhaps this is the answer.

ORPO: Your statement that any artifact that carried Himmler's name had to be personally presented by Himmler is your opinion, but again, where does it say that? Pardon my curiosity in this matter, but we all know that many of those socalled facts started out as unsubstantiated guesses and opinions that sounded reasonable, so everyone got onboard. Thus, if you have first hand information on Himmler's personal habits as they relate to this matter don't hold out now.

Houston,

The reason why we've never seen photographs of SS-NCO Degen w/o the officer's portepee is because this portepee was the only one used to adorn SS Degen, at least starting in 1935 when the portepee was first introduced. The other type, the one similar to the officer's type, but w/ black strap and crown, was in fact used for bayonet only, at least according to Mollo, cf. "Uniforms of the SS (2nd ed.)" vol. IV, p. 43 and the errata on p. 52.

Sdesember-Not quite correct. The black knot with runics is seen in several period photos on this forum in another thread being worn on the saber also by NCO's. In addition, In Wittmann's SS book there is a photo of one being worn on a dagger--but I think this was not "regulation".

But the point I was trying to make is that although we don't have the regulations for the wear of the NCO degen-it would seem that it was limited to very senior NCO's-not just any NCO.

That the Officer’s knot was used by senior grade NCO's, not just any NCO, makes sense to me and generally conforms to German Army practices. The leaders and staff of the SS Junkerschulen originally came from the German Army - which probably had a lot to do with how things were done inside the schools.

Manfred, I am a little confused by your comments. Do they refer to Himmler presenting a sword from his hand to the hand of some recipient? Or something that was presented in his name?

I think that photographs can give a good indication of how Himmler handled presentations in general. I know that we are not talking about the ‘Birthday Degens’ here, but I think that they might be a good starting point for items that were unquestionably named individual hand to hand presentations. Looking at the pictures in Tom Wittmann’s SS book the SS ‘Birthday Degens’ are fully inscribed and seem to have the SS Kulturzeichen present. Which I think would be expected on non Dachau produced items ordered/delivered to the SS. The same type Kulturzeichen as seen on the Solingen manufactured “Ehrendegens des Reichsführers SS”. And a number of photographs of him physically presenting non-signed (I think a very reasonable assumption) examples of the SS Ehrendegens.

Signed presentations like the “generic” M1933 Himmler daggers are obviously another matter from an earlier time. However, there is a film record of him personally presenting the first 200 examples of the Himmler signed daggers. I don’t know about how the rest of them were awarded which could have been presented in his name (?). I’m not quite sure as yet how all this is related to your sword. But the photographs do not leave much room open for interpretation like opinions might. And I think are something to add to the discussion to provide some background. FP

The etching on my sword does not express a dedication or an indication of award for loyalty or other services. It merely states: H. Himmler, Reichsfuehrer SS. Maybe it is a prototype submitted to the SS for approval or, maybe, it was assembled after the war. But what was the purpose of the blade in the first place, and why would someone attach a 'candidate' handle rather than one with the runic symbol? It certainly would have garnered more bucks. Thus if you want to use 'reasonable assumptions' as the guiding principle you have to go both ways.
Also, the absence or presence of the kulturzeichen has been highly overused as a proof of originality. In effect, we have no reason to assume that there ever existed a mandate for its application. Many of the police swords have it while others don't, and the same goes for SS swords. Thus the absence of a kulturzeichen from my sword indicates absolutely nothing.

Houston,

I think your examples above illustrate my point much better which is: just because we see something is worn in a period photograph, it doesn't mean that that something is worn per regulation. Your example of the black portepee worn with the Saebel, which is a response related to my previous post, specifically illustrates this point well.

PS: The black portepee might have been authorised for wear w/ Saebel designated for the SS before the introduction of the 1936 Model of SS Degen; and when the 1936 Model finally came out, perhaps, the use of the black portepee were replaced by the discussed officer's portepee.

I don't think so. I think the wear of the black knot with the saber or bayonet by JUNIOR NCO's was regulation and correct. I believe only the SENIOR NCO's could wear the NCO degen and/or the Officer knot. I also believe that Officer candidates awaiting promotion and SS Officers not awarded the Honor degen could wear the Officer Degen without grip runics with the Officer knot. I see nothing to refute this and period photos tend to prove this so far.

I believe only the SENIOR NCO's could wear the NCO degen and/or the Officer knot.

Please cf. below! This photograph shows a Senior NCO and yet he's seen w/ an SS Officer's Candidate Degen.

I also believe that Officer candidates awaiting promotion and SS Officers not awarded the Honor degen could wear the Officer Degen without grip runics with the Officer knot. I see nothing to refute this and period photos tend to prove this so far.

Again, cf. the same photograph below! If the Oschaf. were already in the process of being promoted to an officer rank, which I very much doubt, wouldn't he, first, be promoted to the rank of Standartenoberjunker (Stanob.)?

I have to agree that it’s not a presentation blade in the sense that it’s not to a named individual or have a salutation like on the Himmler M1933’s. That is a part of the problem I think because it does not seem to make sense especially in combination with a “Candidate” (or “Private Purchase Officer’s Degen”) handle. Of course anything is always possible, and discounting any questions about the source of the blade, why would a "prototype" sword with a non Dachau hilt (w/special order pommel) which has a facsimile of Himmler’s name on the blade also not have maker's mark/identifiers present in case it was approved? 'Stealth' prototypes was not the way things were usually done if some problem had to be corrected or a design change was needed (or if you possibly had multiple examples/companies in competition using parts from various sources).

I also most respectfully don’t agree with the idea of the SS Kulturzeichen meaning absolutely nothing. All M1936 daggers have them, and if you look at the information from Joe Wotka in Tom Wittmann’s book you will see that when the Police degens were introduced in 1938 it was stated that they were made under SS control. And purchasers were to look for the Krebs trademark and the SS Kulturzeichen. Further on it states that a complaint was filed and eventually other Solingen makers were permitted to manufacture the Police swords. Some in conjunction with the SS and some without - which is why some makers have the marking and others don’t. Hit and miss Kulturzeichen was not true for the standard Solingen made SS Ehrendegen which all had the marking in one form or another.

Likewise, the Munich produced fittings for the ‘Birthday Swords’ have very prominent Kulturzeichen on them . The singular exception was the Dachau manufactured Ehrendegen inasmuch as Dachau was already under complete SS control. My point being that (except for Dachau) SS sanctioned swords had the Kulturzeichen. Swords from non sanctioned sources did not. And the use of the signature of the RFSS was not something to try and do without his approval first if you wanted a long and healthy life in Germany in the late 1930’s or later.

There is no question that it's a beautiful sword and the kind of a bargain that most folks just dream about even as a conversation piece. The problem is that with the very large number of fakes that have floating around for at least the last 40 years or so is getting acceptance. Especially from observers some of whom have seen too many things that looked good at first. Only to find out that upon close examination and analysis that what they were looking at was not what it first seemed to be. For some of those individuals the bar is going to be raised higher, which I think is going to require more than just possibilities. FP