UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officer Candidate Sword

Picked up this sword at a gunshow about 14 years ago. It came without a scabbard to show off the blade. The scabbard came from Tom Johnson. According to the seller it was hanging on the wall of some vet's den. Paid the outrageous sum of $125 (Nostalgia is setting in)at closing time. Nobody had apparently wanted it.

The pommel nut has the SS runes button installed. Must have been professionally done with a lathe cutting a recess.

Blade etch

Other side of blade

Another close-up of hilt

Well, here it is

What a beauty!!!

Im more than happy to re-coop your money mate
seriously very very very nice sword - great find!!

Manfred:
T Johnson has got some of those blades for sale on his site. I believe they're in the $1,500 range at that's just for the blade.
Jim

I forgot to mention, the blade has no maker mark.

Jim m: The scabbard was $150 (1991) and the portepee, which is period made, was $300. By rights, this rig should be in a portepee collection (with a sword attached).
There is a blade like this on one of the swords shown in Wittmann's SS book as well.

Mvogel, did the hilt fittings come with your degen. They seem to be a mix of parts. Thanks

Dale Ellis: Thats how it came. The only thing that was added was the scabbard - and the knot.
I'm aware that many times you see an SS sword (or a police sword for that matter) where the hilt components don't line up or somehow just don't fit together the way they should, with buggered up pommel nuts and bent-out-of-shape D-guards. This one had none of these 'features'. Everything was right on the money the day I bought it. I.E. there were no signs of cobbling or any possible replacement of parts. This is the only sword of this style that I ever came across with the swirl pattern knurling on the pommel nut. I couldn't even find one in Wittmann's SS book - but I like it.

Dale Ellis: In regards to your statement that the hilt seems to be a mix of parts, what exactliy do you mean? Are you referring to the pommel being of different make than the ferrule or the crossguard? I am not aware that this particular style of crossguard is attributable to only one maker. The same goes for the ferrule and pommel. Do you have any insights that I am not aware of?

I believe the etch pattern on your degen is a type used only on Dachau made blades. Johnson has some with the same etch with different makers. He discribes them as most likely post war. Your hilt fittings do not look like they were made at Dachau. Are they stainless steel? The D guard seems to have a built in step fitting and the quillon a drilled hole. These are not seen on Dachau produced degens. On page 484 of the Wittmann SS book there is a pommel on a Eickhorn SS-Police degen that has a enameled runes button a lot like yours.

Yes, I'm aware that the hilt is not the Dachau type. However, if you go to page 474 in Wittmann's SS book you read where Paul Dinger made blades for other makers on a subcontractor basis. Since blademaking ceased in Solingen after 1940 (on production line basis) Paul Dinger continued to make blades at the Dachau forge.
The runes button attached to the pommel nut was apparently not a common practice but done on request by the owner. There were several other example I had come across in publications or catalogs over the years but I don't remember which and where. I was referring to the swirl pattern of the knurling on that pommel nut. The usual is the straight radial pattern.

Eickhorn police officer.

Interesting pommels. I don't know why we continue to refer to these swords as candidate swords when we have photographic proof right on this forum that they are in fact unofficial SS Officer swords. While some candidates may have also carried these in anticipation of promotion I can't believe they would have continued to wear them after promotion and even after a couple of promotions if they were candidate swords.

Thank You Houston!!!! I don’t understand why either. Resistance to provable facts, to adhere to established traditions, even if they are in error??

FP

"They are in fact unofficial SS Officer swords"!!
To what purpose? I don't think I've ever seen a dagger or uniform tagged as "Unofficial SS" I also have the impression that a certain H Himmler would have been singularly unimpressed with anyone parading around with something that wasn't regulation(Official). Please explain.
Jim

Perhaps a better term is "Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen"

Houston:
I'm a little confused here. Since H Himmler was directly involved in the design and distrubition of the 36 Patten SS sword I think it would be an understatment to say he had a personal interest. Given that; How could anyone propose the approval of the wearing of a model that didn't fall under the strict auspices of the SS? I keep thinking back to his reaction to the non-standard SS sword Sepp Detriech had the audacity to wear and was told otherwise by Himmler.
Jim

What was called the SS officer degen with the runes button on the grip is the SS Honor Degen given out to certian ranks and graduates of SS Officer schools by Himmler.
What was called the SS Officer Candidate degen is for Officers who did not recieve a Honor degen from Himmler because they did not reach high enough rank or did not graduate from Officer school.

Jim, As was stated Himmler awarded Honor Swords to officers graduating from the SS schools, and some others, who were only a fraction of the total ranks of SS officers. There is some period evidence of SS officers who have the “SS” type Degen minus the emblem in the grip.

After 1938 the German Police had very large numbers of the same Degens. But without the “SS” emblem present - so there is no apparent conflict with others wearing exactly the same Degen as long as didn’t have an “SS” emblem in the side of the grip. FP

Gentlemen,

Are we not missing something here? The sword that MVogel shows has an etched blade with Himmler's facimilie signature. If this sword is proper then how can it have this presentation blade? How can it be "unofficial" and awarded by the RFSS at the same time?

George

One photo = 1000000 words. No candidate here.

This officer apppears to be of Captain rank. Obviously he hasn't been awarded an honor degen. Are you maintaining he could wear this "unofficial" version with a blank grip in the meanwhile? Missed a point earlier. If this sword is "unofficial" how does the Officer get away with hanging an SS sword knot on it?

I don’t think “meanwhile” is the operative word here. The number of SS Honor Swords awarded was only a fraction compared to the total number of SS Officers. The officer pictured is of portepee rank, so I don’t think it’s a case of somebody trying to "get away" with something, that he was privileged to wear as an officer. It would seem that a lot of information that is seen in print and in other places just does not hold up when exposed to actual facts. FP

The excellent photograph that Houston posts shows an Oberleutnant with an Alte Kampfer stripe (indicating service prior to 1933 and very likely not a Junkerschule graduate) and what appears to be this same style of "unofficial" or "private purchase non-awarded sword." The photo certainly seems to indicate that this type of sword was worn by SS Officers and not just by Officer Candidates.

My questions were more about the specific sword that is shown by MVogel that began this thread. This particular etched sword blade indicates it was awarded by the RFSS. These are the same blades that Tom Johnson has for sale as probable post-war manufactured as Dale points out. The hilt is this same "non-awarded sword" hilt. How is it possible that these specific parts are assembled into one sword if this particular sword is proper and original?

I have questions about the grip material and construction details - that I hope are elaborated upon as the discussion continues. FP

"The number of total SS Honor Swords awarded was only a fraction compared to the total number of SS Officers."
I agree with the above statement. However: If the wearing of a non-Honor Degen was permitted for those Officers not awarded a Honor degen why don't we see a lot more of these blank gripped swords around?

Maybe we are seeing them. Only now they have grips with an SS emblem present (?) FP

Fascinating thread. This is why I love this forum. Lots to learn and enjoy.

All I can say about the sword is that I like looking at the pictures of it. Whatever its origin, it sure is nice.

In the past 18 months or so, I have had the honor of visiting the Deutsches Klingenmuseum in Solingen, and also the honor of seeing part of Manfred's collection in his house.



Without hesitation, I will tell you all that the latter was far more enjoyable and impressive. I am not kidding.

Don't get me wrong, the Klingenmuseum is a must pilgrimage for any serious blade collector, and I walked the halls in awe. But if 3rd Reich blades are your thing, you will be a bit disappointed. On the other hand, some of the pieces that reside in Manfred's collection literally took my breath away.

I'm sure that many* have been changed to honor degen confuguration over the years by the less than honest. However: IMO if these had been made in anywhere near the number to reflect the non Honor Degen awarded members of the Officers SS corps many should have come out of the woodwork unmodified as direct vet buys over the years.
Perhaps one of out motel buying Forum members would care to enlighten us.
*It's always been my understanding the police swords were the choice of the shysters to make this "Honor degen" conversion.

Houston, outstanding photo!!! Thanks
Jim, I believe FP maybe on to something. Contrary to what many dealers and books say, I've found the degen without runes to be more easily found then those with runes.
On mvogel's degen, it seems to me that with Himmlers name etched there should be some kind of dedication.

Back in the old days we used to see quite a few degens that had plain grips with no wire with Officer scabbards and pommels. IMO, most of the collectors of the day believed these swords were put together from large quantities of parts found in Muller's Dachau forge building. There were period pictures to support this-bins of numerous blades and scabbards-- along with GI stories of putting swords together there themselves. I think these stories were true. There were also a very few degens that had NCO scabbards, plain unwrapped black grips, and police type NCO pommels. Also a few wire wrapped Officer models, a few SS Officer degens, a few SS NCO degens, a few "candidate types" with runic pommels, and a few police degens, both Officer and NCO. with SS pommels.

I believe Jack Angolia came up with the candidate idea for all these swords with grips/pommels with no insignia from a few period pictures of Officer candidates with the degen with wire wrap, Officer scabbard ,and pommel but no runics. He then published this concept in his early books and the idea became "fact".IMO this incorrect or at least only partial "fact" along with several others was then repeated in several other later books as was and still is "the practice".

We now know from a few photos that have just recently been revealed that the wire wrapped Officer models as shown in the photo I posted WERE carried by SS Officers during the period. It would also seem that some Officer candidates carried them also in anticipation of promotion to Officer. We don't know if the NCO "candidate" types are period or just parts and we don't know if the Officer types with plain unwrapped grips are correct or just parts.

As Jim suggested-I don't believe every SS Officer who was not awarded a degen bought one of these swords-there never were enough of these around to support this idea. Also--we know many SS Officers carried a variety of sabers and probably many of them never owned any type of sword. Also as FP suggested-probably several have been post war converted by adding the runics to the grip. ( This would make a much better fake then attempting to modify a police degen which requires filling in the eagle wing holes)

Also-although we know that some of these degens without grip runics were carried during the period we don't know if they were officially approved or just tolerated as unofficial or prohibited but still sometimes worn anyway. As most collectors know -many uniform wearing rules were violated on quite a regular basis. Contrary to popular belief a lot of variation in dress was permitted and no one got the firing squad for it.

Dale is correct when he states that the "candidate" swords were easier to find in the recent past. There was little demand for them-not many wanted an unadorned candidate sword--they wanted those mean looking scary Officer swords with runics--and they still do--but now that it is known that these unadorned swords are in fact SS Officer swords--it is a whole lot harder to find one--and when you do it is no longer to be had for a thousand or less.

and I think that is about where we are today--and now you know most of "the rest of the story" So--considering all that it would seem to me that if Himmler was going to present an SS degen it would be the SS NCO or the SS Officer Honor degen.

Thanks for the update Houston. Once again I think we've got a very interesting exchange of ideas going here. If it points out one thing to me It's the vast amount that we still don't know and are continuing to discover about the 3rd Reich.
The Internet has certainly facilitated the exchange of this information in a far more rapid manner than would have been possible in the past.
Jim

My Sincere Thanks to Houston for his insight and the most incisive account of SS swords and the “old days” that I have seen to date. Very Well Done!!!!! FP

Houston, I am curious from where the photo you posted came? Was that the one I supplied to Tom W. for his recent book? The officer was SIPO member and wore the Winkel because of earlier HJ membership.

Joe-it came right off this forum from another thread.