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Bret, That is an excellent link, and besides that evidence, there is no recorded use of the “Hühnlein” style markings ever being used on anything else except the daggers. But I don’t know if it is enough ‘proof’ or not for Hühnlein dagger supporters to agree that they were postwar modified.

Here is a “.925” jewelers stamp that is currently for sale for just under $10.00 exclusive of postage. My point being the guys who ran this faking/counterfeiting operation not only used a lot of shortcuts, and clearly exhibited sloppy workmanship. They were not even that well funded or equipped, and made do with whatever they had at hand.

And there is nothing wrong in staying in your “comfort zone”. If it keeps you from worrying at night about whether or not something you purchased is a fake or not. FP

925 stamp link

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Dear Dave.

Think we have seen the Hallmarks, on the web site provided. Lets go back to your thoughts on marks!!

Please, I think you are an educated man, these marks on the dagger are fake. Next, your cuff links only go to prove the fact of faking. If, and I hope one day to be able to host you, you saw these things with their provinance you would be up in arms.

I do not see how you can be so blinded to the truth of the matter.

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If Frog Prinz actually had any experience with these daggers, and not just photographs of them, he'd know that these are NOT engraved (none of them), but acid etched. How many have you actually held in hand, Frog? Don't make me chase you down with my Segway! Wink Gailen knows I can do it! I'm dying to know who you are anyway. Seriously, lets do lunch!

I really believe this: a bunch of dumb counterfeiters got a hold of a box of honor daggers, and screwed them all up (according to the Freds), for no profit motive at all. Sounds reeealllly plausible. With all of these marking tools available, why didn't they spend a whole $10 to mark them so the freds would like them more? Smile

More likely: Huhnlein and his staff were in a rush to produce a lot of gifts for high end dignitaries at some NSKK road race, and Huhlnein gave his adjutant his own dagger, and said, hey, get me a bunch of these! And the adjutant did his best, including getting a bunch of half-assed chains copied at some local jeweler in Berlin, and did his best. When I was an adjutant for 2/11, and the Battalion Commander tasked me with doing some last minute thing, you'd be surprised at the crap I came up with on short notice. Anybody want a Kinkos photocopy of a fancy lithograph, framed with a plaque, that has the name of the guest of honor mis-spelled? Yes, all from an "official" USMC command! Not saying this happend in 1939, but it certainly is possible.

I can't wait for some collector in 50 years to find the lithograph with that plaque, and say that it's fake. He won't have a historical telescope, to see the laugh we all had on that day. Smile They'll tell you that "Marines wouldn't do that" and that "photocopying copywrited material was illegal." Wink


Craig Gottlieb
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but craig what about the fake marks (i wont even call them hall marks as they are not)on the mount?
if ,as you believe, during ww2 such things went out the window why have any marks at all which would have been legal??
no the top mount was made with fake marks so that they would fool poeple into believing the mount was period
happy to accept the dagger is genuine but i know too much about silver to accept the mount sorry
nick

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Craig, I concure on the markings. Thse are not right. The very thought that Mr H would say nock up a set of chains, and a Liason officer would go to Hell on a hand cart, is beyond believe. The maker of the chain would applie the mark on compleation. This is standard practice.

You yourself rely on markings, I quote your description,"Textbook set, consisting of a 935/4 marked Knights Cross and a 900/21 marked set of Oakleaves and Swords. The cross is by Steinhauer & Luck, and is considered a B-Type (see Dietrich Maerz book, page 122-125)." If the marks have have no relavance, why were they ridgily applied to these pieces? Also why are they not cat into the pieces?

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Why do you persist in ridiculing Fred P.s
highly regarded forensic technical knowledge/skills.I for one consider the remarks
as insulting.
Seiler. Frown

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seiler
what do you think about the markings and crude casting?
nick

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Hi,
Rubbish.Living with a wife who carries
Bradbury,s book in her purse,I am well versed
in Hallmarks Big Grin

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My good friend Nigel Hill(Bedford Fair owner)
is a Manufacturing jeweller and Dealer in
Oundle.I think Chris may know him from
the past.I can,t repeat what he said Big Grin
Seiler

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"If Frog Prinz actually had any experience with these daggers, and not just photographs of them, he'd know that these are NOT engraved (none of them), but acid etched. How many have you actually held in hand, Frog? Don't make me chase you down with my Segway! ? Gailen knows I can do it! I'm dying to know who you are anyway. Seriously, lets do lunch!"

Craig, I’ve got etched blades from just after WW II, stretching back to two centuries ago. My translation of the above: You have no explanation for what you don’t understand, and you just don’t get it.

But, if you are so confident. Why don’t you (and possibly Grant?) post some really good close up pictures of both of his, and the Grüner dagger? And maybe toss in a picture or two of that one on your web site. What could it possibly hurt? And wouldn't that be a good way to demonstrate your expertise?

And let me see if I got it right. Am I supposed to be intimidated by the sight of you on top of a Segway? That's in this universe, right??

"I really believe this: a bunch of dumb counterfeiters got a hold of a box of honor daggers, and screwed them all up (according to the Freds), for no profit motive at all. Sounds reeealllly plausible. With all of these marking tools available, why didn't they spend a whole $10 to mark them so the freds would like them more?"

Well, at least we are agreed on one thing - using your words: “a bunch of half-assed chains”. My point (which you seem to have missed) is that this was a postwar “back room” operation. Proper tooling was easily available - especially to the Gahr firm or any other company in that era that had a few Reichsmarks to their name. But these guys not only lacked a few simple inexpensive stamps. They didn’t even have an adequate amount of round wire, or simple tooling for bending. Did NOT know how to cast silver. Had to cobble together groups of different kinds of parts. Can I stop now - or do you want me to go on?

“More likely: Huhnlein and his staff were in a rush to produce a lot of gifts for high end dignitaries at some NSKK road race, and Huhlnein gave his adjutant his own dagger , and said, hey, get me a bunch of these! And the adjutant did his best, including getting a bunch of half-assed chains copied at some local jeweler in Berlin, and did his best. .............. Not saying this happend in 1939, but it certainly is possible.”

No doubt all of the proof for the above will be included in the latest as yet unpublished manuscripts: “Third Reich Leaders And Their Scramble To Find Last Minute Gifts” . And the companion volume: “The Struggles Of Third Reich Adjutants To Comply With Bosses Requests".

But wait a minute!! That would mean that NSKK-Korpsführer Hühnlein would have to have 15 - 20 (*more ?) Honor daggers in a closet somewhere. Ready to go to the “Berlin Jeweler” to have the work performed. Or did Hühnlein ask the 15 - 20 honorees: “Hey Guys”. “Can I have your daggers for a week or two? So I can get special chain sets made for them, so I can give them back to you at the big race” .

And when he presented them to the honorees he said: “You Heinrich, I really like you, so you get a silver mounted one”. “Fritz, I don’t like you as much as Heinrich, so you get a nickel silver one”. And “Grüner, you I don’t like as much as those two, so you get mixed parts”.

* The average survival rate for TR artifacts is how many per cent of a given total? Let’s say that in this case we set it at 20 - 25 per cent as a hypothetical starting point. Does that mean the “Berlin Jeweler” made 80 - 100 of the “Hühnlein” daggers? To get to where we are today, in the numbers reported with those nickel silver center mounts? Hmmmm ........ Roll Eyes FP

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go on repeat it Smile

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Yes Craig, please post some other close ups of your item in question here that was my question several pages ago. As my experience is really nill and I would like the chance to learn more. And yes your theory(s) are funny but it would be nice to get back on track with the discussion here. I am waiting for Tom to return from his germany trip to get his personal view also. I am eager to see what images you can post. thanks
Bret Van Sant

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I think CG made an offer to FP to see the dagger.I know Calif. is a big state but sometimes a middle meeting ground is not to far.We all know photo's are not the end all answer. I did think FP was going to the MAX to help solve this riddle.Does make interesting reading.


You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time


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Poll results in the other thread are interesting so far. Just a gauge of opinion, but interesting never the less to see what people think.

Most people might not be vocal on this thread but they can give an honest opinion by way of a vote.

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Ed, It was my original intention to go to the MAX. But I had other commitments, and there was no way I could do it all. One of the things I was hoping to see online from the MAX were some good pictures of the daggers. There are ton of guys out there who are probably never going to see one of these “Hühnlein” daggers in person. And Craig at the present time only has one or two examples under his control. And whether or not he chooses to share some better photos is up to him.

As for a ‘get together’: “?Don't make me chase you down with my Segway!” Do I really want to have a “one on one” meeting with somebody who has that kind of mindset?

It could be just a coincidence, but the late Dr. Julian Milestone (another Northridge resident) did not like these daggers either. And the issue is really much bigger than the dagger (I presume) Craig is trying to sell now.

And there were also some secondary issues with the MAX. With TW’s “call to arms” would I even get a “seat” at the table? And how much time? With some reports that I’ve seen, indicating that what we might call out here a “Dog and Pony Show” (no disrespect intended) took up a fair amount of the available time.

And, especially in retrospect, I really do think something like a focused Powerpoint presentation would be very helpful to visualize some of the issues - especially for the audience. Which, from second hand information, seemed to lose interest with some leaving during the “Dog and Pony Show” proceedings. Regards, Fred

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just a little info to chuck into the pot here ,re the `hallmarks` cast or stamped , i contacted the Klingen Museum Solingen about silvermarks on daggers or anything ( i guess they should know ) , and their reply "The marks are stamped into silver." .

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Dave,
Thanks for showing your cuff links! Because of my fascination for marks and hallmarks it really peaked my curious mind and would like to bring to your attention some facts I researched that I hope you will find interesting. Let me just say I will try to be as objective as possible because I understand the concerns of both sides. Smile I have highlighted your words in an attempt to help clarify some understanding of them for you. Other more knowlegeable members than I have addressed this issue, but I thought maybe I could give it a shot. Smile

You stated the following;

"So yes, cast Hall Marks do exist. The only reason I point this out is that when I see "never" used in this hobby I wonder how long the statement will stand."

“There was an immediate lawsuit by one of the Guilds, the result of which was a judgment which essentially said that if items were to be sold as silver, they must be hallmarked, but that the method of applying the Hallmark was NOT limited to any method”

Dave,
I agree, with our hobby most certainly never say never, but remember our dagger hobby concerns are with Germany; your cufflinks were produced in England. Your “cast hallmarked”, (as you call it), sterling silver cufflinks were made in England with “cast impressions” that resemble or mimic “approved hallmarks” from that country. I’m not saying that countries in general don’t take hallmarking serious because they do, but we should judge an item from where it came. Each country has specific governing laws and systems in place, some the same, some close, and some very different concerning hallmarking of precious metals and what’s acceptable in one country might not be acceptable in the other for the reasons I just stated.

My point is, the “cast hallmarks” as you call them, on your sterling silver cufflinks are not considered “hallmarks” or “marks”, because in the “United Kingdom” it’s not an “approved method” or an “approved hallmark or mark” sanctioned by the laws of that country. By virtue of “their definition” alone, (not mine, not yours, nor Webster), of what a hallmark or mark is and isn’t defines what is acceptable and what isn’t acceptable. And by “their definition” you can’t classify your cufflinks as having hallmarks or marks, simply because they haven’t been marked by their approved method or authority, have they? In the UK your cufflinks are classified as an “unhallmarked article”. They would also call your cufflinks a “prison term without parole”. Big Grin Because of their laws it’s more involved and I won’t get into them, but will keep to the subject and address the facts.

FP, Thanks for showing what you described as a jewelers stamp. Good description. I know this type of punch as a swan neck shank. The other type of punch used is called a straight shank.

More to follow.

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I have a question, if these daggers signature are acid etched, the signature would be almost perfect in the exsecution of lines,curves and definition? The photos shown here of the signature really look "irregular" for an etching made by a professional craftman, my VERY personal opinion of course.

I ask, because of some of my work I have to work with material that is to delicate or so complicated artisticaly that etchings are the only way....and these etchings usualy come out almost perfect with some minimal cleaning of the parts, most of the time just polishing is needed. Usually when a signature is going to be etched, the craftman entrusted with the task, will "correct" any imperfection on the original ink specimen used for a pattern, so you dont see irregulars lines or curves. In todays technological advance world this old world craftmaship have been replaced by laser engraving which is almost 99% perfect.

Is my personal opinion that if someone was going to make a presentation dagger using what I belive was the most expensive type of blade for the daggers(damascus)during that time....the special features of that daggers should be flawless, like other well documented original specimens, which need no explanation because of their superb execution in all their parts and details by the old world craftmaship of the time.

I am just curius about all this, since some members have pointed out some very strong points against these daggers and because of the fame and pride the germans had making almost anything almost to perfection, the obvius "short cuts" in some aspects of this daggers make me wonder on why things were made this way on what was to be a presentation/honor dagger of the finest caliber in detail.

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Dave,
Now to prove what I’ve stated above. The laws pertaining to the UK will provide the factual answer concerning your "cast hallmaked" (as you call it) cufflinks. I bring to your attention the Hallmarking Act of 1973.

Keep in mind I mentioned “approved hallmarks" and "approved method” in my post above which is my main focus.

The act of 1973 is clear on this issue and defines what an “approved hallmark” is and what an “unhallmarked” article is. It's more involved, but this should do the trick. See the attachment below.

(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, “approved hallmarks” means
(a) Marks struck by an assay office in the United Kingdom, whether before or after the, under the law for the time being in force,

(4) For the purposes of this Act an article is unhallmarked—
(a) if it does not bear the approved hallmarks and the sponsor's mark,

Other members have mentioned this, but it needs mentioning again because of the relevants to the meaning of the word as it relates to “their” tradition and history, they’ve been doing this since the 1300 hundreds. The word hallmark originated from the 15th century when London craftsmen were first required to bring their wares to Goldsmiths Hall for “assaying and marking”, hence the word “hall mark".

Also, at present in the UK, a hallmark consists of a series of marks applied to an article of precious medal. And means that the article has been independently tested and guarantees that it conforms to all legal standards of purity/fineness. This what a hallmark is! Gold, silver, platinum and palladium are considered precious metal in the UK.

A complete hallmark consists of three compulsory punch marks, sponsor’s (or maker’s or manufacture’s or name) mark. A metal and fineness (purity) mark or what is called a standard mark and the assay office mark. Optional marks are the date mark and the traditional fineness mark; this would be a pictorial mark. Other marks that can be applied are the commemorative or international convention marks. Each of the marks comprising the approved hallmarks shall be enclosed by such shield or other border. Articles altered legitimately bear an “additions” mark, indicating the year of alteration.

There you go, you have the first part of the answer as defined by the act of 1973! It defines both what an "approved hallmark" is and what an "unhallmarked” article is and as I mentioned above in my first post. Your cufflinks are not hallmarked! Are not considered a hallmark or a mark and in fact is unhallmarked.

More to follow,Thanks

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I have been asked by Ron Weinand, the MAX Show seminar coordinator, to make corrections to earlier statements I made about the MAX Show in an earlier posting. This is corrected from information he provided me, which I am more than happy to do.

* The first item on the seminar schedule was price changes over the 25 years of the Max Show which was prepared by his wife. And Tom Wittmann had nothing to do with that part of the seminar program.

* Anyone in attendance can comment or question without banishment or discrimination, with no set time for their comment or question.

* Craig was not on the panel, or seated at the front table. (Which I don’t believe I said, with my “seat” at the table comment intended to be taken more in a metaphorical sense, instead of a literal one. Referencing instead the MAX Show article in the "Military Trader".)

* He did not see anyone leaving prior to the discussion of the NSKK dagger.

I will try in the future to better verify information from other sources regarding the MAX Show before posting. And sincerely apologize for any confusion or misinterpretation that I may have caused. FP

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Dave,
Would like to finish this up and focus on the “approved method” and how this all ties in to approved hallmarks and assayers.

Assaying means to test metals, so assayers in the UK and other countries that have this system, test the fineness/purity of precious metals to “confirm” the purity in which the maker claims it is and if it is and is within tolerance and meets the standards required by that countries laws then and only after it has been assayed does the assayer give it their stamp of approval. It’s this stamp or series of stamp(s) which is called a hallmark(s) which is/are an “official” mark, a “guarantee” of purity. Let me add, that a maker mark by itself isn’t considered a hallmark. And “only the assayer” can apply these approved marks with their approved dies and “approved methods”. Nobody else can do so without written authorization because it’s against the law.

In England the traditional way of marking precious metals was and still is done by using punches or dies as you will, but there are other “approved methods” of applying “approved hallmarks”. At present the “approved methods” are applied by the traditional way which is by handmarking with a punch, pressmarking which is an automated version of handmarking and lasermarking/engraving which is an etching process that uses high powered lasers which can mark in 2d or 3d. The detail of these lasers is astonishing to say the least.

Dave, the UK would never consider a cast type of method for many reasons; Consumer protection being at the utmost priority and they believe the temptation to deceive is too great for most. Combined with their tradition, and long history, charges and taxes to name a few. As our members have stated before, to this day precious metal hallmarking is taken serious in the UK and in fact they will block any European country “not a signatory” to the Hallmarking/Vienna Convention that attempts to influence change to their current method of operation. It’s been tried!

Some countries, like British colonies, the USA, and others, and in fact Germany didn’t have a true hallmarking system in place like England had established or at least had no official authority to oversee, control and confirm the purity of their precious metal wares. In fact these German silver smiths marked their own precious metal wares and during the 3rd Reich Era did not and at present they do not take their wares to an assayer. Do we see assayer marks on German precious metal wares? Nope, never! Sorry, getting side tracked!

The methods I mentioned above as far I know are the only “approved methods” in applying approved hallmarks by assayers in the UK. As we can see, cast isn’t an approved method is it and now you know why your cufflinks are not hallmarked. So, there you go you have the answer to both what an approved hallmark and approved method is according to “their” law! The good news is you’re on the right track with your question posted above.

Anyway I gave it my best shot. Thank you and I sure hope this has helped you to understand what all this means in relation to your cufflinks.

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Mikee, Freddie,,,forget it,,you guys are wasting your facts..
Yes, the debate IS over,,fake chain, dagger questionable at least .. They actually have nothing,,let this all rest now and fade away...........

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Gaspare, I understand where you are coming from, but I may have to respectfully disagree to some extent.
quote:
Craig Gottlieb - Posted on 24 August 2009:

“I am giving Tom Wittmann an exclusive on the photos of this piece for his book .......”

Depending on how the "Hühnlein" dagger(s) are treated in the book. I think this topic could very easily come back to life in full force. (Not unlike one of those California wildfires that seem to spring out of nowhere.) FP

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quote:
Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
I have been asked by Ron Weinand, the MAX Show seminar coordinator, to make corrections to earlier statements I made about the MAX Show in an earlier posting.

* He did not see anyone leaving prior to the discussion of the NSKK dagger.

FP


I accept that because for 30 plus minutes Ron was reading off from a long list of price escalation of various German militaria from 1984 to 2004..so he didn't notice (See) certain things. Not that it matters but some people did leave out the back door, others stayed, some actually fell asleep including myself and my friend next to me. Later I was told that we were not the only ones to do so.

Anyone that was in the back of the room near the back door could tell you that there was a smaller crowd by the time the NSKK discussion had come about.
This is what I saw...when I wasn't asleep! Big Grin - But I stayed!! Wink

Interesting how one sees things from a different perspective.

-serge-

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Please, please explain to me how a set of chains with fake marks are applied to an original dagger and then are defendable as original. If this be the case then the faker has a full field to play.

Craige, please give your reasons for believing that the marks are original.

Dave, the same question. The cuff links but prove the point of faking. I listen with open ears.

Mr Agrea of the dagger as original with chains, I ask the question, how are these ligitermate.

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Ahhhh for a time machine . Big Grin


You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time


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This debate could go on forever, just like is there aliens out there in space???? Eek

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Here they are again.

Sterling silver, made in Sheffield in 1971. The hallmarks on the front are faithful depictions of the correct hallmarks that should have been applied to the back by hand. Instead, the maker used cast depictions, yes, cast, as both the ornamentation and the proof of contents, location and name of manufacturer, and the year of manufacture.

It caused a stink at the time and I am hoping an industrious member in the UK can go back to 1971 archives and find mention of it and report it here.

I am sure the miscreant was severely punished. Hanging having been abolished years earlier, perhaps he was sentenced to drink British Railways coffee morning and evening for life Big Grin*

Dave

PS * I lived in England 1960-1963 and commuted to London from Brighton. BR coffee made a tea drinker of me.

PPS Anyone reading this remember the Brighton Belle - the all Pullman train that ran daily from Victoria to Brighton at 4:00 PM ?

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I have been trying to stay out of this dispute because it's going nowhere and minds have already been made up as to the legitimacy of these daggers.
However; Anyone can produce decorative misuse examples of hallmarks and other forms of official approval as those pictured above. The penalty for this would be at most a slap on the wrist. However there was and isn't any attempt to decieve anyone here just the misuse of an official seal for decorative and commercial sales purposes.
The fake "hallmarks" on the HuhnLein" dagger hangers are a whole different matter and were created with the intent to decieve.
I don't know how many times this has to be said and by how many people who know it's true from experience but the misuse of hallmarks to decieve are and were serious crimes in Europe.
Jim

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jim m,
Your absolutely correct but read the act of 73, this being made of silver, illegal marks? a buisness?,dealer? To what extent? There still might be some laws that were broke, but I'm not a lawyer. I just didn't want to focus on the legalities of these cufflinks, only to prove to Dave what a hallmark is.

Dave, Dave, Dave, Smile

Besides the first part of your statement, “The hallmarks on the front etc. etc". At least now you’re calling them cast depictions and faithful depictions. You can call it cast as long as you don't use the word hallmark in the same context. Because now you know why you can't call them hallmarks. I think we finally got to you, didn't we Dave. Come on, admit it! Three Cheers to ya! Great!

Approved Hallmarks can be applied to the front of cufflinks, not necessarily to the back.

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Mikee,

I won't repeat your name several times, but they ARE hallmarks as they identify the cuff links that were sold as far as date, content, maker and year. Big GrinBig Grin

Dave

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I don’t intend to get caught in the middle of this one because I value my personal safety. Wink So here is the definition from Wikipedia.

Hallmarks

Jim, The operative part with the above being "the intent to deceive”. Which (it seems) succeeded in its original intended purpose for many decades.

I was hoping to get some input from the senior collectors as to their estimate of the “survival rate” as a general matter. I thought I was being relatively generous with a hypothetical number in the 20 to 25 % range. I know that some items have a much lower survival rate - should the estimate be higher or lower?

I also don’t think that the debate is going to go on forever. But there are still some loose ends to tie up. Like input from Mr. Stephens whenever he finishes whatever he is doing now. Which is not at all a criticism as like all of us, there are times when other things have priority, which I'm assuming is the case now.

Lastly: Thank you Serge! It would seem that from the perspective of someone who was in the audience. That my comments were not as “off base” as they seemed to be from another perspective (not that it has a direct bearing on the topic one way or the other). FP

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Dave, Big Grin

Define a Hallmark please? Are they official? You said yourself the guy should have been hung.

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I thought gun collectors took what they collected seriously. The specialists in silver collecting have a tenacious side that I am just now beginning to really appreciate. What next? The "headsman’s” axe at the Tower?? Eek Wink FP

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Dave, Big Grin

I know your on, Big Grin I'm not going to rest until you understand what a hallmark is! Big Grin

FP, Big Grin

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A
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Fred:
The poll as to whether these are legitimate daggers which is posted elsewhere kind of says it all. The days when a small group could and did control the thinking in this hobby are over
BTW: I did vote and put myself in the "I don't know" category and there I will remain until definitive proof about the legitimacy of these daggers surfaces.
This is separate and distinct from the hangers which I think any reasonable person knows are bad.
Mickee:
I know what I've stated about hallmarking is correct. Thank you for your support.
Jim

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C
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Dave, I take your statement and try to explain your missunderstanding of Hall marks. "but they ARE hallmarks as they identify the cuff links that were sold as far as date, content, maker and year." The maker is the person who places his mark upon the item. He then sends the item to the Assay office. This is part of Her Majusties PAROGATIVE. Here the silver mark, assay, office, one of a few, are stamped. Thus for them all to be cast by the manufacturer is placing false marks.This is a very serrious offence. Any way which way to Hell, can this be correct.

As to using the Hall mark as a designe, this the manufacture will instruct the Assay Office, they will aply as requested. I have a number of items marked in such a way. The Amards dishes are but one, the Cromwellian gobblets I have are adorned with stagered mark as a designe feature.

As to Hanging, execusion is still on the Statute book in the UK, Treason is still punishable by death. There are other occasions, treaspas to the Royal body another. To which ends there is a working Gallows in Wandsworth Prison.

To reitterate, it is impossible to have vallied Hall marks that are applied in the manufacturering process. If they are they are fraudulant.

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maybe they have the real hallmark on the back somewhere?

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S
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S
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Mr Ailsby has more knowledge and experience
on the subject and law concerning UK
Hallmarks than ANYBODY else on here.
So lets stop this please.Its boring.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

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