UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum HACK-WERKE "FISH LOGO" ARMY

ok guys -

I've acquired the JOSEPH HACK ("Hack-Werke) heer dagger ref'd in my recent post.

it's got an early, heavy, silvered wingen guard, early nickel or chrome blade
with "W" on tang, and generic pommel and scabb. oh, and did I say it's a hack?

here are a few pix. all comments welcomed

thanks a lot! david

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

Great score, Congrats. Now go and find a 2nd Luft.

A FANTASTIC find!!!! I have never seen a Heer by this maker.

Congratulations!
Johnny

Great dagger and it looks like a tapered tang as well. Its the first one I have seen and probably the last for quite some time, very nice that the Wingen fittings are matched with the "W" Wingen manufactured blade. I am curious as to when Hack would have added their maker mark and who did the plating, I find it unlikely that it would have been done by Wingen.
Correct me if I am wrong somebody but I was always under the impression the plating was added over the already maker stamped blade which would suggest Hack purchased the blade blanks from Wingen along with the fittings and maker marked and plated to suit?.
A very interesting dagger with a maker mark to die for.........well done and congratulations!.

Well done indeed, congrats.

thanks heaps gents! pays to hit the pawn shops now-n-then, eh?

wittmann's only handled one in the past 15 years. he thinks hack may be a distributor (?)

as to who got what parts from whom, maybe wingen got klass - who made some nickel or chrome blades - to "dip" a few of its blades?

on another site lately I saw a dress bayo with this same exact mark. hacks must be equally rare on that side of the street!

That's a rare find! I never seen one. Just wild...off the charts with the plating and as Degen states the Wingen blade and crossguard.

Just when you thought there was nothing left in the Pawn Shops anymore!
I bet Denny doesn't even have one of these.

Regards,
-serge-

I believe Hackwerke was a manufacturer, Fisher lists them as being in business since 1875. They also had their own RZM number, 7/103. I don't know of too many Austrian manufacturers besides Hackwerke & Zeitler.

Jan, another GD'er who collects dress bayonets just found a nice KS98 bayonet with Hack's mark. The mark on a bayonet is not quite as rare as on a Heer dagger but scarce enough in it's own right.

thanks for the additional thoughts on this mega-rare army.

can anyone surmise a fair value range these days? for me it's all guesswork since they turn up practically never... a true case of "whatever market will bear," I suppose.


david

A lot of these small manufacturers did not have the facilities to make all of the parts of a dagger. They would concentrate on the blades, which would indicate their trademark, and buy the other parts from the big fabricators.

Alcoso and WKC must have made a lot of money in their day by selling miscellaneous parts to the small guys. I don't believe that Eickhorn was big into selling parts. Of course, all that changed as the war progressed and all kinds of parts swaps and sales took place as shortages affected everyone.

And, I agree with Billy, that Hack was a manufacturer not a distributor. Has anyone ever seen a Hack Navy?

John

John,

IMO Eick did sell a lot of parts to various manufacturers of bayonets. My experience in large part is limited to fireman's pieces but I own & have owned a number of bayonets by smaller cottage type makers that all have distinctive Eickhorn parts & of course Eickhorn quality. If they did it with bayonet parts, it's quite possible they did it with dagger parts as well, right?

Never seen a Hack KM or even heard of one. I'd imagine if there was one, it would bring a pile of cash.

David
Rare dagger-nice find always exciting to discover a hidden treasure.

again, thanks.

I've been in and out of the hobby for decades as a "generalist" and I think never saw one of these. it's not shown or even mentioned in wittmann's book.

but the LOGO (and rzm code) at least are illustrated in lumsden's "pocket ref." on german edged weapons from a few years back...

cheers,

david

In Carter's reference (for what its worth) he states that a "few" army daggers were also made. And he also states that it was "alleged" that Hack continued to assemble daggers long after the war was over. That being said, its a nice find you have. I am sure the offers will be pouring in.
Bret Van Sant

>it was "alleged" that Hack continued to assemble daggers long after the war was over.<

well, that's unpleasant news bret! that said, yes, the HackHeer has made some guys a little feverish ;-)

and actually it all fits together as TW would say, "like a glove..."

cheers,

dw

def. a rare fish

David, hello
thats an opinion in a reference book, i would not let that sway your opinion. Its a keeper, I would not sell it for even freakish prices.
Bret Van Sant

is it me, or is there the "swirl" pattern on the pebbling on the scabbard?

Yes!!
Seiler (yank in UK)

The Spanish Swirl?

Regards,
-serge-

I'll put a couple of questions out for discussion:

1. Joseph Hack is in Steyr in Austria. The Anschluss was in March of 1938 so the dagger could not possibly have been made earlier that that.

Is that manufacturing date compatible with an early, heavy, silvered crossguard and early nickel or chrome blade ?

2. I was lucky enough to inspect and photgraph a Hack Luftwaffe dagger straight from the vet. Here are three pictures of the trademark:

Apart

A second one. The trademark is not the same.

This is starting to loock a littlr bit "fishy"

I thought usually Heer TM's were sharpe (nicely stamped or etched) but if they are like dress bayonets you will find some that are lightly stamped or etched. Could over polishing cause what we are seeing on this example. On dress bayonets TM's varies alot so this is some what normal. Here is a TM on my dress bayonet.

hello dave et al and thanks -

a few points:


- variations of makers' marks are commonplace, and as this thread shows hack had at least two; mine's the type shown by kissinger.

- wartime "parts daggers" are commonplace as we all know, maybe especially heer daggs.

- klass is a known maker of chrome or nickle-plate blades, and it's pretty apparent they, like other makers, supplied some parts (or services, like special plating) to makers such as wingen, and were probably supplied in turn to get orders out.

- so, is mixing "very early" and "early" parts, one manufacturer to the other, really "fishy?"

by the way, altho wittmann hasn't seen it, we chatted and he says the dagg sounds perfectly fine. here are more pix for what it's worth.

new pic 2

by the way, dave, you note re other daggs one mark that's a stamping (pressed into), another that's in relief (raised) like it was cast. "they aren't the same."

what does that tell you about mine?

dw

It makes me question:

1. Why a dagger with all the indications of a very early manufacture is on a dagger that was manufactured at the very earliest in the spring of 1938.

2. Manufacturers that used variations of their trademarks tended to use similar trademarks on similar sized blades. Why would Hack used the bayonet version of their mark on a blade that is so close to an Luft Blade.

And if it cast into the blade, I am not aware of that being done on Army daggers. Most were acid etched and a few were perhaps stamped.

Dave

thanks again, dave. worth pondering for sure!

>a dagger that was manufactured at the very earliest in the spring of 1938.<

how do we know hack-werje GMBH didn't produce blades for Neues Deutschland before the Anschluss? It may be pulling a long bow, but is it really unlikely AH would throw some blade biz austria's way in the midst of Germany's economic miracle?

AH was sentimental all his life about his native country, and had big plans for Leonding and other neighborhoods of his youth. I know; a friend's dad had the original drawings.

I still think the backing-and-forthing of parts one firm to the next explains many things that seem anomalous.

The main thing, and you'd see this with dagg in hand, is that everything is "of a piece:" integral and harmonious and pretty clearly together for a Very Long Time.

and while I find the thread really interesting, I should point out that some of the hobby's leading lights here have found nothing at all "fishy" about this dagg. just the reverse in fact. maybe they'll chine in?

I personally don’t have a problem with this dagger. Sure it would be more textbook if the tang was not tapered but that is just a transitional aspect no reason to discount the piece. Some nickel plated blades have stamped trademarks –Klaas –Krebs. The few I have seen by this maker are sloppy. The maker mark conforms to the other I have seen on a 2nd luft. Dave this is not an early made dagger based on the hilt fittings. I see a dagger that all the parts fit and finish ads up to being OK IMO.

Dave here is the Hack luft-I missed this dagger on ebay many years ago and after that was sold on manions missed it then as well and would love to have it I just like the look of the dagger-Dave is this the one you examined?

This luft was sold on eBay by the family of the vet that returned it-it came out of New Mexico anybody know who owns this dagger ? Please drop me a PM ?

thanks for the addl. input, WWIICollector.

this stamped mark looks identical to the one on my hack heer, including the uneven strike.

is this a nickle'd blade, too?

david

If anyone has Wittmann offering #34 page 53 he lists a hack army. I went back to re-read what Carter had in his reference. Missed that the 1st time.
Hey,Tom, what was selling price on the luft you seen at ebay and then manions? did they add preimum for the maker at manions?/ BTW hows the new year treatin'ya??
Bret Van Sant

Personally I do not have the least problem with the dagger shown here at first (the HACK army).
Concerning the tang and the overall quality of daggers past march 38:
If our best threads would not disappear into nirvana you could find an old thread wherin the (by me) hard missed fellow collector Ford Crews has found out and stated that HÖLLER delivered heavily silver plated army daggers with tapered tangs to Austria where they were distributd by DÜRBECK. So documented past ´38 appearance, tapered tangs and high quality are not the least disaggreements per se.
Another Austrian manufacturer, ZEITLER, also seems having used different stamped logos during the period on his army daggers (and assumable also on his luft daggers).
You might also not forget that HACK and ZEITLER were producers, at least they did produce their own blades and I dare to doubt that there have been strict instructions how to do the tang. As these firms were outside of Solingen they easily might have produced blades with a "tapered", the more crude looking, tang.
The "swirl" pattern on scabbards is ALSO WELL KNOWN on late PERIOD scabbards.
Regards,

David: I was the one that purchased the exact Hack 2nd Luft shown above from Manion's back in 2001. And yes, it had a heavy nickel plated blade and very unique grip wire. I also have no doubt about the originality of your Hack Army.

hi serge - thanks for piping up.

for your information, "swirl" scabbs exactly like mine are seen in wittmann's army book, among other places. they're usually called "generics" and have the "flat"-looking bands shown on mine and others.

I think we'd all like support for your implication mine is a spanish fake. kindly provide this to us. thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
The Spanish Swirl?

Regards,
-serge-

thanks wotan and dons for the most interesting
extra work and details. much, much appreciated. and here I was starting to think I am a Swirling Spaniard!

dw

Hi David,

I would love to be able to add more into this wonderful discussion of this rare dagger. Unfortunatly my knowledge on these is very limited.
As to the swirl that I and others noted on the scabbard is as you and other authorities say are period made. That's good with me. If you note my implication was restricted to a form of a question.

Any idea who made these scabbards? Perhaps it is these scabbard dies that were found post war and made the well known fakes post war that are termed "Spanish Swirl" due to their unique pattern?

Regards,
-serge-

hi again serge!

it was a fair question from you - I just wanted info if you had any.

if I'd got "burned" well life goes on and at least it would be a Learning Experience...

I don't know which maker(s) produced "generic" scabbs - but as with you & others I'd like to. if anyone can help in this area please do!

and thanks again to all lookers and responders.

i have had some of the best armys on the planet pass through my hands, i have no problems with this one. Although i never really liked the swirl pattern scabbards

thanks roy -

not crazy 'bout them myself - but heck (hack?) it's what it came with....

Looking at the wide variety of comments which are well taken, a couple of points seemed to resonate well with other information on period Austrian manufacturing capabilities. Hack would seem to fall into somewhere in the class of an “intermediate” type of manufacturer using parts made by others. With Hack seeming to have dropped off the radar screen unlike some other blade and component makers with actual manufacturing capabilities that went on to make items for the Wehrmacht.

Looking at how Germany actually assimilated Austria into its empire. And the turnover rate of Austrian industry I don’t think that the dagger preceded those events. And any components acquired should probably be reflective of what was generally available to Solingen makers at the time if that was the source.

PS: For what it is worth the marking on the thread starter does not IMO look like a stamping. Which generally speaking would not be at all surprising for small scale makers on a budget not wanting to invest in having dies made. FP

thanks again, fp, for the generous help.

if not "stamped" into the steel by some heavy press how was it put there? looks "impressed" or "indented" to me - maybe I'm using the wrong nomenclature....

also: was it marked before or after wingen sourced the plated blade from klass or whomever?

deep bow your direction.

David, Speaking generally there are three different types of stampings seen. Roll, drop hammer, and hand stamp. Roll stamping is common on rifle receiver rings. And for daggers, the only comparative images I can find at the moment are for the SS chain links. With the SS hand stamp to the left. Noting that because the stamp was tilted when it was used - one side is deeper than the other. Whereas with the machine stamped example to its right it is fairly evenly stamped across the whole link.

Using the best Hack Army dagger marking posted (IMO). Even assuming that there was die breakdown* (unlikely IMO given the relatively low volume) it doesn't appear to share the same characteristics. (*I think that I may have some pictures of the results of a marking die that is breaking down, but can’t lay my hands on it (or them) at the moment.) Along with a couple of other factors that admittedly make it a littler harder to judge - but that don’t significantly affect my conclusion from what I have seen to date. With the other marking options of course being etching or engraving.

And as for the plating. It appears to be on top of the trademark/logo marking instead of being applied through it. Meaning that it looks to me like it was already there when it was plated. Best Regards, FP

What I think is probably the best trademark/logo image of the Hack Army dagger posted.

oh, ok, then so it's ... hand-stamped.

and like others ref'd in this thread with a similarly "off-center" logo.

cheers & allbest, fp.

Really has turned into a good little info bit here!! I was looking in Wayne's book and he notes that on Hack etched bayonets they were getting stock from Pack and Klass. he also mentions that hack has made armys. and..... I was looking at TJ's latest offering and noted he had a Hack etched bayonet. He made the comment that they placed the blade washer behind the blade shoulder and not on top. Thats a suspect post-war sign. Not adding fuel to the fire that this is post-war just a FYI.
Bret Van Sant

Bret As I remember it went for around 5or6 allot at the time don’t know what it sold for on Manions -New years good so far hope yours is going well.

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
If anyone has Wittmann offering #34 page 53 he lists a hack army. I went back to re-read what Carter had in his reference. Missed that the 1st time.
Hey,Tom, what was selling price on the luft you seen at ebay and then manions? did they add preimum for the maker at manions?/ BTW hows the new year treatin'ya??
Bret Van Sant

I'll correct an error on my part. Make that Tom Wittmann's new offering with the Hack etched bayo.Also he did not think the bayonet was post war, just so I'm clear on that! I was typin and had a gap in the brain, sorry!! Its the cold air i'm tellin ya!!!
Tom, new year is good so far got pink eye from the baby its all good dude!!! see ya round.
Bret Van Sant

Hand stamps are a possibility I considered. However, when compared to some other German stampings, the interiors of the known stamped areas look different. Actually quite a bit different IMO being more uniform with sharper better defined edges than the dagger marking, which makes me consider some of the other possibilities like etching or engraving.

With one of the problems in making a more positive determination of course being that the plating does a fairly effective job of concealing what’s underneath. Where even a closer look might or might not help (?). For comparison purposes a blade marking. FP

Another type, being the combination of a serial number with a partially erased makers code. FP

AllGood -

again cheers fp and others.

A new arrival on the JohnZ wall. You have seen this before (it was posted on an earlier thread), but here is my latest, a Hack Luft2.

The obverse:

The reverse:

The TM

The pommel

The crossguard

Scabbard top

Lower scabbard band

The tips

Crossguard from the top


John

Note the way the acorns point... the closest to the blade point towards the blade and the others point away from the blade.

John

Wow what a great dagger - Is that the same one I posted that i was looking for?

I believe it is

John,

Great piece, the fish is a terrific logo on anything. Well done!

WW2:

I was looking at some older threads and saw some excitement about this dagger a couple of years back. I think that you were one of the people expressing some interest in it at the time.

Don't think me rude, but I am much happier that I have this, then if you had found it

Billy:

Thank you, it took me a while to find this and I lucked out just recently.

When I look at this dagger, I find it hard to figure out where all the parts came from... I don't think that Hack Werks fabricated all of the components.

Can anyone help me out here? For example, I haven't seen a crossguard with this configuration of acorns before...

John

Interesrting T.M. Application looks similar to the early David Malsch T.M.!

A rare maker is certainly well deserved here.

Congrats John!

-Serge-

JohnZ,
Wow, it IS a unique dagger!
Where is it on a rarity scale of 1-10? 11 and a half?
I've never seen another one before.

Congratulation,
Janos

Congrats JohnZ
A great dagger,that finaly came in ur colection

John for sure thats the Hack that I posted the picture of that was sold on Manions years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by WW2-Collector:
John for sure thats the Hack that I posted the picture of that was sold on Manions years ago.

Tom, didn't Don's say he purchased that one from Manions? Also the Manions daggers crossguard rear lower lip ridge appears to have some nicks that are not aparent on John's.

-serge-

I was going by the maker mark comparison.Also compare the dings on the pommel swaz looks like a match to me.

John,
I believe the crossguard is a Herder, here it is shown on one I used to own.

Degens:

I am not totally convinced... look at the leaf at the very top (furthest from the blade), they don't at all look alike to me.

But, even if so, is that of concern to you? Hack would have bought parts from other casters, like so many of the smaller guys did.

John

Certainly no concern from me, I would have expected a smaller maker to be purchasing parts from external suppliers and the one on your Hack was undoubtedly bought in.
Wittmann states that Herder also probably bought in their parts, although I have owned 2 by this maker with the leaf pattern shown above that I was unable to attribute to any other maker.
The upper facing acorns are a nice touch!.

Degens:

Yes, those upper facing acorns are pretty unique. I have looked in Tom W's book and through my collection and can find no other that looks like that.

John

Ok, here goes another Hack Luft2.. this time the mark without the oval.

Obverse:

Reverse:

Note the very thin wire on the grip.

The TM... no oval

The pommel

The Crossguard:

The top of the crossguard:

Note how it looks just like the crossguard from the previous Hack.

The Crossguard and the top of the scabbard.

The scabbards for both Hacks are very angular, almost square and very flat on the obverse and reverse sides.

The tip:

John

Very interesting thread! I post this variation of the trademark on a dress bayo, best regars

One of the most, if not Thee Most, mysterious of 2nd Lufts I have had the pleasure to examine. It has so many features that are unique to this rare maker.
Found this Hack-Werke recently, and thought I would post it here.

Serge

Note the interior of pommel is a very thin copper disk. I found that the feature is so when one tightens the pommel one finds that it aligns tightly and the pommel sits properly and eliminates the well known 'pommel spin' a known design challenge with 2nd Lufts.

The taper tang and grip fit is of extremely tight tolerances. There is no 'wiggle' even before the tightening of the pommel.