UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum HACK-WERKE "FISH LOGO" ARMY

ok guys -

I've acquired the JOSEPH HACK ("Hack-Werke) heer dagger ref'd in my recent post.

it's got an early, heavy, silvered wingen guard, early nickel or chrome blade
with "W" on tang, and generic pommel and scabb. oh, and did I say it's a hack?

here are a few pix. all comments welcomed

thanks a lot! david

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

Great score, Congrats. Now go and find a 2nd Luft.

A FANTASTIC find!!!! I have never seen a Heer by this maker.

Congratulations!
Johnny

Great dagger and it looks like a tapered tang as well. Its the first one I have seen and probably the last for quite some time, very nice that the Wingen fittings are matched with the "W" Wingen manufactured blade. I am curious as to when Hack would have added their maker mark and who did the plating, I find it unlikely that it would have been done by Wingen.
Correct me if I am wrong somebody but I was always under the impression the plating was added over the already maker stamped blade which would suggest Hack purchased the blade blanks from Wingen along with the fittings and maker marked and plated to suit?.
A very interesting dagger with a maker mark to die for.........well done and congratulations!.

Well done indeed, congrats.

thanks heaps gents! pays to hit the pawn shops now-n-then, eh?

wittmann's only handled one in the past 15 years. he thinks hack may be a distributor (?)

as to who got what parts from whom, maybe wingen got klass - who made some nickel or chrome blades - to "dip" a few of its blades?

on another site lately I saw a dress bayo with this same exact mark. hacks must be equally rare on that side of the street!

That's a rare find! I never seen one. Just wild...off the charts with the plating and as Degen states the Wingen blade and crossguard.

Just when you thought there was nothing left in the Pawn Shops anymore!
I bet Denny doesn't even have one of these.

Regards,
-serge-

I believe Hackwerke was a manufacturer, Fisher lists them as being in business since 1875. They also had their own RZM number, 7/103. I don't know of too many Austrian manufacturers besides Hackwerke & Zeitler.

Jan, another GD'er who collects dress bayonets just found a nice KS98 bayonet with Hack's mark. The mark on a bayonet is not quite as rare as on a Heer dagger but scarce enough in it's own right.

thanks for the additional thoughts on this mega-rare army.

can anyone surmise a fair value range these days? for me it's all guesswork since they turn up practically never... a true case of "whatever market will bear," I suppose.


david

A lot of these small manufacturers did not have the facilities to make all of the parts of a dagger. They would concentrate on the blades, which would indicate their trademark, and buy the other parts from the big fabricators.

Alcoso and WKC must have made a lot of money in their day by selling miscellaneous parts to the small guys. I don't believe that Eickhorn was big into selling parts. Of course, all that changed as the war progressed and all kinds of parts swaps and sales took place as shortages affected everyone.

And, I agree with Billy, that Hack was a manufacturer not a distributor. Has anyone ever seen a Hack Navy?

John

John,

IMO Eick did sell a lot of parts to various manufacturers of bayonets. My experience in large part is limited to fireman's pieces but I own & have owned a number of bayonets by smaller cottage type makers that all have distinctive Eickhorn parts & of course Eickhorn quality. If they did it with bayonet parts, it's quite possible they did it with dagger parts as well, right?

Never seen a Hack KM or even heard of one. I'd imagine if there was one, it would bring a pile of cash.

David
Rare dagger-nice find always exciting to discover a hidden treasure.

again, thanks.

I've been in and out of the hobby for decades as a "generalist" and I think never saw one of these. it's not shown or even mentioned in wittmann's book.

but the LOGO (and rzm code) at least are illustrated in lumsden's "pocket ref." on german edged weapons from a few years back...

cheers,

david

In Carter's reference (for what its worth) he states that a "few" army daggers were also made. And he also states that it was "alleged" that Hack continued to assemble daggers long after the war was over. That being said, its a nice find you have. I am sure the offers will be pouring in.
Bret Van Sant

>it was "alleged" that Hack continued to assemble daggers long after the war was over.<

well, that's unpleasant news bret! that said, yes, the HackHeer has made some guys a little feverish ;-)

and actually it all fits together as TW would say, "like a glove..."

cheers,

dw

def. a rare fish

David, hello
thats an opinion in a reference book, i would not let that sway your opinion. Its a keeper, I would not sell it for even freakish prices.
Bret Van Sant

is it me, or is there the "swirl" pattern on the pebbling on the scabbard?

Yes!!
Seiler (yank in UK)

The Spanish Swirl?

Regards,
-serge-

I'll put a couple of questions out for discussion:

1. Joseph Hack is in Steyr in Austria. The Anschluss was in March of 1938 so the dagger could not possibly have been made earlier that that.

Is that manufacturing date compatible with an early, heavy, silvered crossguard and early nickel or chrome blade ?

2. I was lucky enough to inspect and photgraph a Hack Luftwaffe dagger straight from the vet. Here are three pictures of the trademark:

Apart

A second one. The trademark is not the same.

This is starting to loock a littlr bit "fishy"

I thought usually Heer TM's were sharpe (nicely stamped or etched) but if they are like dress bayonets you will find some that are lightly stamped or etched. Could over polishing cause what we are seeing on this example. On dress bayonets TM's varies alot so this is some what normal. Here is a TM on my dress bayonet.

hello dave et al and thanks -

a few points:


- variations of makers' marks are commonplace, and as this thread shows hack had at least two; mine's the type shown by kissinger.

- wartime "parts daggers" are commonplace as we all know, maybe especially heer daggs.

- klass is a known maker of chrome or nickle-plate blades, and it's pretty apparent they, like other makers, supplied some parts (or services, like special plating) to makers such as wingen, and were probably supplied in turn to get orders out.

- so, is mixing "very early" and "early" parts, one manufacturer to the other, really "fishy?"

by the way, altho wittmann hasn't seen it, we chatted and he says the dagg sounds perfectly fine. here are more pix for what it's worth.

new pic 2

by the way, dave, you note re other daggs one mark that's a stamping (pressed into), another that's in relief (raised) like it was cast. "they aren't the same."

what does that tell you about mine?

dw

It makes me question:

1. Why a dagger with all the indications of a very early manufacture is on a dagger that was manufactured at the very earliest in the spring of 1938.

2. Manufacturers that used variations of their trademarks tended to use similar trademarks on similar sized blades. Why would Hack used the bayonet version of their mark on a blade that is so close to an Luft Blade.

And if it cast into the blade, I am not aware of that being done on Army daggers. Most were acid etched and a few were perhaps stamped.

Dave

thanks again, dave. worth pondering for sure!

>a dagger that was manufactured at the very earliest in the spring of 1938.<

how do we know hack-werje GMBH didn't produce blades for Neues Deutschland before the Anschluss? It may be pulling a long bow, but is it really unlikely AH would throw some blade biz austria's way in the midst of Germany's economic miracle?

AH was sentimental all his life about his native country, and had big plans for Leonding and other neighborhoods of his youth. I know; a friend's dad had the original drawings.

I still think the backing-and-forthing of parts one firm to the next explains many things that seem anomalous.

The main thing, and you'd see this with dagg in hand, is that everything is "of a piece:" integral and harmonious and pretty clearly together for a Very Long Time.

and while I find the thread really interesting, I should point out that some of the hobby's leading lights here have found nothing at all "fishy" about this dagg. just the reverse in fact. maybe they'll chine in?

I personally don’t have a problem with this dagger. Sure it would be more textbook if the tang was not tapered but that is just a transitional aspect no reason to discount the piece. Some nickel plated blades have stamped trademarks –Klaas –Krebs. The few I have seen by this maker are sloppy. The maker mark conforms to the other I have seen on a 2nd luft. Dave this is not an early made dagger based on the hilt fittings. I see a dagger that all the parts fit and finish ads up to being OK IMO.

Dave here is the Hack luft-I missed this dagger on ebay many years ago and after that was sold on manions missed it then as well and would love to have it I just like the look of the dagger-Dave is this the one you examined?

This luft was sold on eBay by the family of the vet that returned it-it came out of New Mexico anybody know who owns this dagger ? Please drop me a PM ?

thanks for the addl. input, WWIICollector.

this stamped mark looks identical to the one on my hack heer, including the uneven strike.

is this a nickle'd blade, too?

david

If anyone has Wittmann offering #34 page 53 he lists a hack army. I went back to re-read what Carter had in his reference. Missed that the 1st time.
Hey,Tom, what was selling price on the luft you seen at ebay and then manions? did they add preimum for the maker at manions?/ BTW hows the new year treatin'ya??
Bret Van Sant

Personally I do not have the least problem with the dagger shown here at first (the HACK army).
Concerning the tang and the overall quality of daggers past march 38:
If our best threads would not disappear into nirvana you could find an old thread wherin the (by me) hard missed fellow collector Ford Crews has found out and stated that HÖLLER delivered heavily silver plated army daggers with tapered tangs to Austria where they were distributd by DÜRBECK. So documented past ´38 appearance, tapered tangs and high quality are not the least disaggreements per se.
Another Austrian manufacturer, ZEITLER, also seems having used different stamped logos during the period on his army daggers (and assumable also on his luft daggers).
You might also not forget that HACK and ZEITLER were producers, at least they did produce their own blades and I dare to doubt that there have been strict instructions how to do the tang. As these firms were outside of Solingen they easily might have produced blades with a "tapered", the more crude looking, tang.
The "swirl" pattern on scabbards is ALSO WELL KNOWN on late PERIOD scabbards.
Regards,